Columbia's MA (Only) - Worth it?

[rabelaisian]

Having attended columbia, I've found M.A terminal students to be some of the stupidest in my classes. A lot of wealthy older ladies who mistake literature classes for book clubs (by extension, mistaking lit professors for...Oprah). Professors don't give them the same attention they give to phd tracked students & there's a pervasive "cash cow" sentiment.

Your acceptance of older students is staggering. But worse, you don't think the vast majority of people in Ph.D. programs come from economically privileged backgrounds? Granted, that doesn't mean much these days. But it's not like college preparatory high schools don't exist as a mill for wealthier people to go to a "good college" often followed by a Ph.D.

This isn't to say that there aren't plenty of people who manage to get into Ph.D. programs by other means, though it sure doesn't hurt if you went to Yale. But one could as readily equate the frustration you hold for wealthy old ladies who mistake lit classes for book clubs with the teeming masses of Ph.D. students who exist thanks to the beneficence of mom and dad, often with the most sophomoric and laissez-faire attitudes toward scholarship. If only graduate committees could work like Saint Peter and properly weigh the souls and minds of those entering, I do believe the composition of graduate students might look a bit different.

Not to be contentious.

[Minnesotan]

The cult of victimhood has tainted yet another thread. I wonder if there's anything we cannot blame on white folks, or wealthy people, or whoever is bringing Rabelaisian down today.

At least there's always someone to take responsibility for our failures, this way.

[barryblitt]

hey, no one is saying that academia is a meritocracy. But I think it's fair to assume that most people who are in (especially Ivy League) masters terminal programs are paying their way. Those in PhD programs are probably equally privileged, come from educated families etc. But, at the end of the day, if you're talented enough, the universities pay you...not the other way around.

I think older students are great. This nothing to do with age. But when "Masters students" are taking taxis to class and referencing the Da Vinci Code....(sigh)....it's difficult to take them seriously.

[lotf629]

The reality is that lots of people in Ivy league schools, at every level, are from poor families, and many of them are coping with significant financial stress and may even be in the position of giving partial support to family members, but most of them have learned not to talk about it, for better or worse. It's not very helpful to make blanket assumptions about others' financial situations, I find. I say this as someone who is working on a third Ivy degree and has been lending support to parents for the last ten years. I just make it work, as many of us do. Sometimes I took taxis to school because I was so overscheduled between my job and my classes that it was the only way to get there on time.

Appearances can be deceiving.

[JustAnotherModernGuy]

I do not recall (from any of my recent 19 PhD program applications or any conversation with various professors) ever being asked

[jasper.milvain]

I do not recall (from any of my recent 19 PhD program applications or any conversation with various professors) ever being asked

[Minnesotan]

It's as they say: funding breeds funding. If you get the money, people like you. If not, well, "There was an uncommonly strong pool of applicants this year..."

[Minnesotan]

First, "As the say funding breeds funding", whose they?

People in charge of doling out grants and fellowships. They're much more likely to take a chance on someone who has already proven they deserve funding and are productive when they receive it.

[Watmeworry]

I paid for a Columbia LSMA in Modern European Studies, my BA is in English and Comp Literature from Columbia too. My thesis adviser and (a) recommender is the chair of the Comp Lit Dept. I took loads of English classes.

The MA in English is unbelievably rigorous. The jump in the difficulty level from undergraduate to graduate classes is wide and the classes challenge. One year of intense study. People cried on my shoulder when trying to complete the four 20-25 page papers, and on the last semester the additional thesis. I'm just finishing my MA thesis, but all my classes are in PhD seminars and I see very few MA's across the board. One in a twelve person seminar typically.

However, while you will be incredibly well prepared to apply for your doctorate, it is unlikely to be at Columbia. I know this from discussion with faculty. They take maybe 6 from hundreds like everyone else. They like to bring in fresh minds and cross pollinate. They also like to send their product forth too.

If you were not there as an undergraduate, it is a little harder to get into friendships and develop relationships with faculty, but it can be done.

You will end up in debt , you might not have time to give your applications the attention they deserve, you will be worked off your b....

I regret nothing of my time there/here.

The LSMA is interesting, because you can take all the same classes, but over three of four semesters and this gives you time to write your applications and get to know the

fantastic faculty.

Columbia still carries cache.

[Watmeworry]

Having attended columbia, I've found M.A terminal students to be some of the stupidest in my classes. A lot of wealthy older ladies who mistake literature classes for book clubs (by extension, mistaking lit professors for...Oprah). Professors don't give them the same attention they give to phd tracked students & there's a pervasive "cash cow" sentiment.

But...hey! If you've got money to throw around, why not? If you can make an M.A terminal program happen financially, you can always use it as a stepping stone to a better PhD program.

I don't have money to throw around. I take class seriously and if I am mistaken for one of the "wealthy older ladies" I hope that I thoroughly spoiled your classes you pompous ageist ass. It is true that some older learners are perhaps too enthusiastic, but the youth-worshipping slackers who refuse to speak in class causing long silences are a waste of time and space too.

The only thing I regret about my time at the college was the odd sense of evil directed towards me.

MA students are all first years ..no duh...it is likely that they might struggle. It is also extremely hard to get past the kind of prejudice that is palpable from people like you.

This addresses the agism, shall we begin with the sexism? Or shall we pretend that you didn't embarrass yourself on a public forum.

I'm sorry but with 100.000 dollars of debt under my belt I resent the conflation of old, lady, and rich as a priori.

In one year it is harder to make a strong connection with the professors, who tend to give attention to students that they will invest more time in of the course of years. This is true whether one attends a private or public institution.

Edited March 3, 2011 by Watmeworry

[violaswamp]

Hey guys,

Haven't read this entire debate, but wanted to weigh in as I am currently finishing my MA at Columbia. I've been accepted to five programs for PhDs of varying quality (ranked between the 90's and the 20's) and gotten full fellowship offers at all of them. I applied to 20 schools, which I think helped my chances. Also, I really tried to spread my apps out in terms of quality of program and location.

My experience at Columbia has been difficult. I feel like I haven't thrived there, but I'm not sure if that's because I worked two jobs while going in order to pay for it and was pretty burnt out the whole time. That said, I definitely think that strong letters from my Columbia professors helped me a lot in terms of acceptance at schools that are in the mid-range. Columbia is a pretty cold place, so your best bet is to align yourself with good professors early. Privately message me if you'd like some names of people who are really willing to work with MA students.

There are some professors at Columbia who simply won't give terminal MAs the time of day, so you've got to pick and choose your classes carefully. I agree with those who say that if you're trying to get into Harvard, a great essay and letters from a lesser MA program will be just as helpful as those from Columbia, because at that level it's all about the work. Most of the PhD candidates at Columbia who came in with MAs did those degrees at lesser schools. I know many Columbia M.A.O.'s who only applied to Ivy league PhD programs and were rejected everywhere. BUT, if you are shooting for a mid range PhD program, I do think the name can be helpful (just based on my experience).

One last thing--had I to do it again, I probably would have taken the other MA offer I received from Rutgers Newark. I think I would have been nurtured more, done better work, and been more competitive for this process. For someone who doesn't need as much mentorship as I do, though, the Columbia MAO is probably a a good choice.

Good luck to all of you.

[Poppet]

Whereas Columbia's MA is unfunded, does anyone know if funding is ever giving regardless? I know in some other schools where programs are unfunded, departments or professors can still push for funding for a particular student if they feel that student really deserves it, or if they're trying to convince him/her to join their program and not another. Does this sort of thing ever happen at Columbia? Tuition waivers, scholarships, TAships, anything?

[shepardn7]

. Thus, to the last person who claimed that the Columbia M.A. program let in the Da Vinci code demographic I referred them to Columbia's departmental website which offers the acceptance statistics: 25% of applicants accepted, verbal GRE average of 695, and a 3.8 average gpa. That is to say, seemingly not bored dilettantes with too much disposable cash.

I have no stake in this debate, but those statistics prove absolutely nothing about the quality of the literary scholarship being produced by students and alums. Many mathematicians received verbal scores above 695 and received As in both science and humanities courses, too. Instead, you might want to direct people to, say, published papers by Columbia MA students and grads.

Columbia's M.A. serves as an extremely useful tool for aspiring English scholars with non-traditional backgrounds. Am I biased? Sure, I turned down a full scholarship + a stipend at Georgetown to pay for an Columbia M.A. instead.

This left me dumbstruck. I simply do not understand why you made the decision you did. The thought of it kind of makes me nauseous, actually. Why in the world?

[lyonessrampant]

I certinly can't speak for the poster you're questioning, but I turned down a fully funded Ph.D. offer to Notre Dame to go to U of Chicago's MA, though I was given partial funding. While I'd probably be finishing my Ph.D. next year rather than starting it, I also don't regret my decision. I made it for social and relationship reasons. Obviously, that's a very individual choice. I'm just saying don't judge what on the surface looks like a terrible decision, because people usually have reasons for making those decisions.

[shepardn7]

I certinly can't speak for the poster you're questioning, but I turned down a fully funded Ph.D. offer to Notre Dame to go to U of Chicago's MA, though I was given partial funding. While I'd probably be finishing my Ph.D. next year rather than starting it, I also don't regret my decision. I made it for social and relationship reasons. Obviously, that's a very individual choice. I'm just saying don't judge what on the surface looks like a terrible decision, because people usually have reasons for making those decisions.

I'm not trying to be judgy. I don't care what personal decisions people make because it's not really my business. I just can't imagine paying 100K for a Columbia MA in English (or MFA, for that matter), and when I try to put myself in those shoes, I do literally feel a little queasy. Debt is terrifying, and I am legitimately curious what situations would make that amount of debt worth it. I think it's interesting that someone dinged me a red mark just for asking the question--why? Why do people feel this is the best decision for them? I'm not trying to be a jerk, really.

[lyonessrampant]

I think it's weird someone dinged you a mark too (wasn't me). I totally get why taking on debt (UC even with the partial funding was hella' expensive) has the appearance of craziness. I just wanted to share an experience to enhance perspectives, so to speak.

[Cato's Daughter]

I'm not trying to be judgy. I don't care what personal decisions people make because it's not really my business. I just can't imagine paying 100K for a Columbia MA in English (or MFA, for that matter), and when I try to put myself in those shoes, I do literally feel a little queasy. Debt is terrifying, and I am legitimately curious what situations would make that amount of debt worth it. I think it's interesting that someone dinged me a red mark just for asking the question--why? Why do people feel this is the best decision for them? I'm not trying to be a jerk, really.

Sarandipity, I dinged you. I was concerned that some posters might feel hurt by the tone of your query. Now that I have read your second response, I think I simply misunderstood the spirit in which you were asking the question.   As I am not the OP, I can't say why in the world someone would do that.  I sincerely apologize for jumping to conclusions and dinging you. I hope you'll forgive me. I'll un-ding you if I can. 

   

[shepardn7]

Sarandipity, I dinged you. I was concerned that some posters might feel hurt by the tone of your query. Now that I have read your second response, I think I simply misunderstood the spirit in which you were asking the question. As I am not the OP, I can't say why in the world someone would do that. I sincerely apologize for jumping to conclusions and dinging you. I hope you'll forgive me. I'll un-ding you if I can.

Oh, it's not a big deal! Sometimes tone doesn't come across well on the Internet, especially when one is in disagreement, etc.

[Watmeworry]

Sorry,if I confused all with my 100,000 debt comment. This is the cumulative debt from my undergraduate degree and my MA. I was respnding to Barry Blitt's remarks about old, stupid, rich, women and was rather carried away. My understanding is that if one attend a MA program in a school where that is the highest degree offered, then there are often funding opportunities. It is almost impossible to get money in the Ivy schools where there is a PH.d program.

I have attended state schools and art colleges too. They are all different. So if you were to take the Ma at columbia it ould be moe like half of that nomber. Still high. I'd say this .If you get a Masters at an Ivy and cannot get into a PH.d track program ,which with what I am seeing is a very real possibility,if only because there are so few places available, then you can find work in teaching at college level more readily,if that is your goal. I'm not sure how the ork orld in other areas ould view this but an ivy degree doesn't hurt.

I'm actually pretty disgusted by Americas failure to allow so many great students to fullfill their potential. I always though that education would be avaiable,somewhere if one had the credentials and this process has opened my eyes very wide. I think that people should be aware that for many this, the MA will be the end of the acedemic road.

[woolfie]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned what I see as the most important part of a decision like this: teaching. I don't think it's that professors "look down" on people who pay for their own MA, that's not the issue, but this profession is based in teaching and phd programs like to see a decent about of teaching experience which you can only get from a funded MA. Plus, don't you want to teach? Don't you want to get some experience teaching to see if you like it? Teaching should be central.

[lyonessrampant]

I think Woolfie teaching can be really useful, and in retrospect, I would have applied to more funded MA programs my first time out (when I applied only to Ph.D. programs and got the Notre Dame Ph.d. admit and the partially funded MAPH admit at UC). However, while I haven't been successful at breaching the top 10ish, I've done okay with state schools in particular who seem to value the teaching component more than the private schools (where you often don't even teach until year 3). I would think (though certainly have nothing besides my own experience here) that it doesn't affect entrance decisions regarding teaching that much, but I also majored in English for secondary education and minored in chemistry for secondard education, am certified in those subject areas, coached speech and debate at the high school level for 4 years, and have coached forensics at the college level for 3 years, including teaching the forensics class, so I already know how I feel about teaching. For someone uncertain about the teaching component, then, I could see how the MA program that included teaching could be helpful. However, a lot of the "best" people in our field either don't teach a lot (the folks at the R1 universities) or don't like teaching and do it to support their scholarship and research, so while I think it's good to like teaching (I do. That's a main reason why I'm going this route and am directing myself for a position at a small liberal arts school), you don't necessarily have to. . .

[Watmeworry]

A follow up about what happened in the LSMA Modern European studies fallout.

I was accepted to CUNY Graduate Center for French PH.D, which was my first choice.

My classmate, (we were only three or four entering), was offered full scholarships at five top colleges for a PH.D in Spanish. She chose Yale.

In this program the courses are designed to spread over two years. I was able to work across disciplines in a narrow field of study. My certificate simply says MA.

Recently, some LSMA programs are folding into Institutes, but I liked my very small cohort and I was able to forge strong connections with Professors and had plenty of attention from the Deans.

The fees came out to about 63K.

I do not regret any of it, I'd never have missed it for the world.

Edited May 30, 2011 by Watmeworry

[rainy_day]

I know this thread is a bit old, but I just wanted to jump in and say something about earning an MA: Not all MA programs are created equal. Obviously, funding is part of this, but it is not the only thing to consider.

I'm currently in a partially funded MA program. (After a few years in corporate sales, I was able to cover the unfunded portion with relatively little debt, and this was, personally, worthwhile.) My program is small, and makes pains to establish limited distinction between MA and PhD students in classes and mentorship.

The pros:

I've been able to fine-tune my research interests, which, upon entering the MA program were scattered.

I have developed strong relationships with professors, who can speak to my ability to do graduate level work.

I've written a number of strong seminar papers, which will help me write a deep statement of purpose and provide a writing sample that I am proud of.

I now have conference appearances and teaching experience under my belt, which only strengthens my application.

Having been through the application process once, I have experience researching schools and faculty, writing SOPs and editing writing samples, etc. I know what works, and I can learn from my past mistakes.

The cons:

The issue of funding

If my MA program were exclusively one of those infamous "cash cows," funding the PhD students in the department and seen as nothing else, I would have a different story, and I really don't think those programs are necessarily worth the money. Every MA program is, to some extent, a "cash cow." Humanities departments need money. The question is: do they respect you as a novice scholar, or do they see you as a dollar sign? The former can be a really positive experience. Run from the latter.

Edited May 31, 2011 by rainy_day