Last minute anxiety: which program?

[zblaesi]

It looks very likely that I'll be getting offers from both UT-Austin and UW-Madison today, which I didn't anticipate. I've been leaning toward choosing UT, but now that both options are (nearly) on the table, I'm feeling some last minute anxiety over my decision. For background, my AOI are metaethics/language/epistemology. Here are some factors I've considered...

1. UT is higher ranked - and I get the impression it is climbing.
2. UW-M would be great for metaethics, whereas UT would be great for language. UW-M seems to have much less support in language. (Sidelle referred me to John Mackay, an assistant professor, and Martha Gibson.) I feel like I am becoming increasingly interested in language over and above metaethics, plus I've been told that your interests tend to change in grad school. Therefore, UT seems like the safer program, in terms of offering the most all-around support for my current interests.
3. UT isn't great in metaethics, from what I can tell. Jonathan Dancy only teaches during the spring. It may be hard to find support in metaethics, though the graduate students I've spoken to seem to be doing fine.
4. UW-M offers me easy access to the annual metaethics conference.
5. Only two grad students at UW-M list language as an AOI, versus two grad students at UT who list metaethics as an AOI, plus about an additional 12 who list ethics as an AOI. I might have a better time interacting with the students at UT than UW-M, given my AOI.
6. UT seems slightly better funded (I roughly estimate $13,410 for the year versus $13,368 at UW-M). But it depends on how much the student fees at UW-M amount to. On the other hand, Austin seems more expensive. However, UT offers six years of support versus the five years of support at UW-M.
7. http://phiplaces.wordpress.com/placements-2007-2013-2/ - based on this, UW-M seems to have a better placement record.
8. Texas is supposed to be very hot. (I hate the heat.) By contrast, UW-M is supposed to be very cold, plus it gets a lot of snow. (I don't mind the cold, but I don't look forward to wearing huge jackets and trudging through snow.)
9. As an undergraduate, I was also a film production major, so it is important to me to stay in touch with the film world specifically and the arts more generally. Austin has a budding film community, and moving from NYC to Austin seems like less of a drastic change than moving from NYC to Madison.
10. Crispin Wright, my one letter-writer, seems to have connections at UT. The same goes for Stephen Schiffer. If I plan to re-apply and possibly transfer from UT, it might be easier to do this at UT than UW-M. (On the other hand, I'm sure Sharon Street knows Shafer-Landau quite well.)

At the end of the day, I think it comes down to choosing the department with the most support in my primary AOI and a great adviser, versus choosing the overall better program.

 

I'm still leaning toward UT, but what do you guys think? Is there anything I haven't considered? WHAT DO I DO?!

 

-- EDIT --

 

New consideration in favor of UT: I will indeed receive the $5000 recruiting fund, plus there is a possibility that UT will be offering students a semester with full-benefits but without any teaching.

Edited April 15, 2014 by zblaesi

[TheVineyard]

I know UM is pressuring you to make a decision, don't let that pressure force you into an early decision that you have to go back on. You know what you want, you've thought about where you want to be, don't fold at the very end, assuming you get both offers.

 

As you know, I don't have a personal interest in this anymore, but I do think that by all accounts Texas is where you really want to go. I say stick to your guns on that because you made that decision "in sound mind and body."

[bar_scene_gambler]

If you're really connected with film and art, then UT would be a better choice just based on the environment. I'm not saying pick it specifically for that reason, but Madison is a cultural backwater compared to Austin's art scene. It's a consideration to make.

[philstudent1991]

Two thoughts, FWIW:

 

1. The weather in Austin is sooo much better than Madison, unless you're an Eskimo. That might not be a factor for you but you do want to like the place you spend the next 5-8 years.

2. I have no insider knowledge, but I'm of the impression that UT philosophy is famously dysfunctional, and is not a fun environment...lots of factionalism and drama, but all I can do is repeat what I've heard.

[philstudent1991]

Oh and yes, Wisconsin will probably be much better than Texas for metaethics. I've heard nothing but good things about Dr. Shafer-Landau and yes, the annual metaethics workshop would be quite convenient there.

[philadam]

I think the bit about your interests changing in grad school is supposed to encourage you to pick the overall stronger program, but just the program that best fits your currently changing interests.

Edited April 15, 2014 by philadam

[zblaesi]

Two thoughts, FWIW:

 

1. The weather in Austin is sooo much better than Madison, unless you're an Eskimo. That might not be a factor for you but you do want to like the place you spend the next 5-8 years.

2. I have no insider knowledge, but I'm of the impression that UT philosophy is famously dysfunctional, and is not a fun environment...lots of factionalism and drama, but all I can do is repeat what I've heard.

 

But I do hate the heat. I tend to run hot and sweat easily. I dread the idea of getting sweaty walking to class during the hotter months. But I really have no sense of how the weather at Austin compares to NYC.

 

I've heard that there have been issues with sexual harassment at UT, but that's about it.

[ianfaircloud]

It looks very likely that I'll be getting offers from both UT and UW-M today, which I didn't anticipate. I've been leaning toward choosing UT, but now that both options are (nearly) on the table, I'm feeling some last minute anxiety over my decision. For background, my AOI are metaethics/language/epistemology. Here are some factors I've considered...

1. UT is higher ranked - and I get the impression it is climbing.
2. UW-M would be great for metaethics, whereas UT would be great for language. UW-M seems to have much less support in language. (Sidelle referred me to John Mackay, an assistant professor, and Martha Gibson.) I feel like I am becoming increasingly interested in language over and above metaethics, plus I've been told that your interests tend to change in grad school. Therefore, UT seems like the safer program, in terms of offering the most all-around support for my current interests.
3. UT isn't great in metaethics, from what I can tell. Jonathan Dancy only teaches during the spring. It may be hard to find support in metaethics, though the graduate students I've spoken to seem to be doing fine.
4. UW-M offers me easy access to the annual metaethics conference.
5. Only two grad students at UW-M list language as an AOI, versus two grad students at UT who list metaethics as an AOI, plus about an additional 12 who list ethics as an AOI. I might have a better time interacting with the students at UT than UW-M, given my AOI.
6. UT seems slightly better funded (I roughly estimate $13,410 for the year versus $13,368 at UW-M). But it depends on how much the student fees at UW-M amount to. On the other hand, Austin seems more expensive.
7. http://phiplaces.wordpress.com/placements-2007-2013-2/ - based on this, UW-M seems to have a better placement record.
8. Texas is supposed to be very hot. (I hate the heat.) By contrast, UW-M is supposed to be very cold, plus it gets a lot of snow. (I don't mind the cold, but I don't look forward to wearing huge jackets and trudging through snow.)
9. As an undergraduate, I was also a film production major, so it is important to me to stay in touch with the film world specifically and the arts more generally. Austin has a budding film community, and moving from NYC to Austin seems like less of a drastic change than moving from NYC to Madison.
10. Crispin Wright, my one letter-writer, seems to have connections at UT. The same goes for Stephen Schiffer. If I plan to re-apply and possibly transfer from UT, it might be easier to do this at UT than UW-M. (On the other hand, I'm sure Sharon Street knows Shafer-Landau quite well.)

At the end of the day, I think it comes down to choosing the department with the most support in my primary AOI and a great adviser, versus choosing the overall better program.

 

I'm still leaning toward UT, but what do you guys think? Is there anything I haven't considered? WHAT DO I DO?!

 

Wow, this was the most confusing post ever. Maybe it was just confusing to me. You see, UW Milwaukee is an important school, very large, etc., so your mention of "UWM" threw me wayyyy off. Perhaps that's my fault, but for a minute there, I thought you were weighing MA programs!!

 

UT is also a bit vague. Now that I've read your signature, I understand that you're torn between UW Madison and University of Texas.

 

I'm doing a little psychoanalysis here. It's tough to turn down a great option like UW Madison, but it sounds like you really just need permission to do so. You may feel worse off having to turn down University of Texas. Keep in mind, you have to turn down one of these two!

 

Based on what I'm hearing from you, I would say University of Texas is the better choice.

 

On the "softs"...  I disagree with the post about the weather. Madison's weather sucks from January to April, but from May to December, it's arguably much better than Austin's weather. Austin is brutally hot from May to September. The Wisconsin cold doesn't really have its full effect until January. HOWEVER, Austin is a great city, much better than Madison. You may want to consider highly practical things, like funding, connections with friends or family, ease of your move, etc.

 

I have heard wonderful things about both of these programs, but I've heard more (quantity) about Texas. Texas is a huge, huge department, so that may be something you would like. (Or maybe not!) 

 

Hey, one thing about funding. You may get better funding at UW Madison. Based on the information I have, most of the time you will receive better than the $13k that you mentioned above. My letter from Madison suggested that I would receive closer to $16k usually.

 

Anyway, my advice is to go with University of Texas. You can't go wrong there, my friend!

Edited April 15, 2014 by ianfaircloud

[lesage13]

One thing that gets overlooked quite a bit is the fact that happier students will tend to be more productive and have better dissertations, and personal considerations like a preference for places with a vibrant film culture bear directly on how happy one will be. Of course, this isn't as relevant to your future job market opportunities as considerations like placement, but giving its due weight might help you tip the scales if everything else turns out to be a wash.

EDIT: Full disclosure, I'm wait-listed at one of the two places you're trying to choose between.

Edited April 15, 2014 by lesage13

[PhiPhiPhi]

Madison really isn't that cold. It's a bit much for non-Midwesterners, but it's not unbearable for anyone with some cold resistance.

 

FWIW: I think UT is a better fit given your considerations listed, but UW is a better program. It's a good choice to have. Good luck!

Edited April 15, 2014 by PhiPhiPhi

[Establishment]

From what I could tell, only (4) and (7) were the real negative's about Texas. And regarding (7), although I have heard of Madison's great placement record, insofar as the link you posted is concerned, UT is only a few spots below Madison. So it doesn't seem to me that UW has a distinct advantage.

 

It looks to me, from your perspective, that the benefits of UT are greater than the benefits of UW. My intuition is to say UT, but this is definitely a complicated and important decision to think about carefully for your own self.

[Die_Kurator]

Wisconsin is boring. I have two friends doing grad school there (not in philosophy). Austin is a cool city. It sounds like Texas has got a lot going for it, that's all I'm saying. The heat in Texas probably isn't too bad. It's a dry(er) heat, so if you come from the East coast (you said you're from NYC), it's not bad. Austin is definitely more expensive, but that's because it's a better city. On the plus side you won't have to pay stupid amounts for heating in the winter.

 

On the philosophical stuff, everything you said sounds true. Keep in mind there's an overlap between phil. of language issues and meta-ethics, so even if you want to work on meta-ethics, someone who does language stuff could probably still help you a lot. Interesting views often come out of taking lessons from one sub-field and inserting them into another (imo) blahblahetc. Also if you are interested in empirical stuff (for language) UT has a really good linguistics department.

 

My .02. I didn't apply to UT, but was strongly considering it for a lot of the reasons I just said. I would do that if it were me in your shoes. I'm not sure if this is the advice you were looking for or not, but hope it helps you.

 

No offense to anyone from Wisconsin.

[zblaesi]

I think you're right: I'm going to feel a sense of loss no matter which program I turn down. I'm just trying to stay clear-headed in my decision. If you have experience with Madison, maybe you can tell me how often it snows. I agree with you that Austin seems like the better city. In terms of moving/proximity to family/etc., they seem evenly matched. My parents are from NJ, and most of my friends are in NYC. The only possible advantage to UW-M is that I know a guy who has some friends there, but that isn't really a weighing factor.

 

In terms of funding, I have information that seems to tip the scale far in UT's favor. First of all, I confirmed that I will receive a $5000 recruiting fund the first year. Second, the graduate coordinator informed me that UT is hoping to implement a system where, for one semester, students will have the option to not TA, while retaining full financial benefits. As far as I know, UW-M isn't offering anything like that.

 

How in the world did you estimate $16k? Maybe I am misreading the letter.

 

Regarding the weather, I talked to the graduate coordinator over the phone. She's from the East Coast, and she argued that the weather in Austin is quite nice. I hate the heat in NYC, but a large part of that is the humidity. She was explaining that Austin has much less humidity, so the heat isn't as bad.

 

Wow, this was the most confusing post ever. Maybe it was just confusing to me. You see, UW Milwaukee is an important school, very large, etc., so your mention of "UWM" threw me wayyyy off. Perhaps that's my fault, but for a minute there, I thought you were weighing MA programs!!

 

UT is also a bit vague. Now that I've read your signature, I understand that you're torn between UW Madison and University of Texas.

 

I'm doing a little psychoanalysis here. It's tough to turn down a great option like UW Madison, but it sounds like you really just need permission to do so. You may feel worse off having to turn down University of Texas. Keep in mind, you have to turn down one of these two!

 

Based on what I'm hearing from you, I would say University of Texas is the better choice.

 

On the "softs"...  I disagree with the post about the weather. Madison's weather sucks from January to April, but from May to December, it's arguably much better than Austin's weather. Austin is brutally hot from May to September. The Wisconsin cold doesn't really have its full effect until January. HOWEVER, Austin is a great city, much better than Madison. You may want to consider highly practical things, like funding, connections with friends or family, ease of your move, etc.

 

I have heard wonderful things about both of these programs, but I've heard more (quantity) about Texas. Texas is a huge, huge department, so that may be something you would like. (Or maybe not!) 

 

Hey, one thing about funding. You may get better funding at UW Madison. Based on the information I have, most of the time you will receive better than the $13k that you mentioned above. My letter from Madison suggested that I would receive closer to $16k usually.

 

Anyway, my advice is to go with University of Texas. You can't go wrong there, my friend!

Edited April 15, 2014 by zblaesi

[zblaesi]

I am actually really interested in experimental philosophy in general and empirically-informed metaethics in particular, so if you guys know anything about the other departments (e.g., in the sciences) at either school, that information could be helpful.

 

Wisconsin is boring. I have two friends doing grad school there (not in philosophy). Austin is a cool city. It sounds like Texas has got a lot going for it, that's all I'm saying. The heat in Texas probably isn't too bad. It's a dry(er) heat, so if you come from the East coast (you said you're from NYC), it's not bad. Austin is definitely more expensive, but that's because it's a better city. On the plus side you won't have to pay stupid amounts for heating in the winter.

 

On the philosophical stuff, everything you said sounds true. Keep in mind there's an overlap between phil. of language issues and meta-ethics, so even if you want to work on meta-ethics, someone who does language stuff could probably still help you a lot. Interesting views often come out of taking lessons from one sub-field and inserting them into another (imo) blahblahetc. Also if you are interested in empirical stuff (for language) UT has a really good linguistics department.

 

My .02. I didn't apply to UT, but was strongly considering it for a lot of the reasons I just said. I would do that if it were me in your shoes. I'm not sure if this is the advice you were looking for or not, but hope it helps you.

 

No offense to anyone from Wisconsin.

Edited April 15, 2014 by zblaesi

[philstudent1991]

 

 

In terms of funding, I have information that seems to tip the scale far in UT's favor. First of all, I confirmed that I will receive a $5000 recruiting fund the first year. Second, the graduate coordinator informed me that UT is hoping to implement a system where, for one semester, students will have the option to not TA, while retaining full financial benefits. As far as I know, UW-M isn't offering anything like that.

 

 

I agree with most of what people are saying here that UT might be the better choice. Do remember though, with regard to the "hoping to implement a system where...". I was in a fraternity in college, and when they were recruiting me, the fraternity house wasn't that nice, but they "had plans in the works to build a new one." I am now graduating college and no new house lol. The obvious moral which you already know is that "hoping to" and "are going to" are entirely different things.

[maxhgns]

 

 

1. The weather in Austin is sooo much better than Madison, unless you're an Eskimo. That might not be a factor for you but you do want to like the place you spend the next 5-8 years.

 

 

Don't use that word: it's a racial slur. (There's one small exception, because there are a people that call themselves Eskimo, but they're almost certainly not the people you have in mind. Those you probably have in mind are either Inuit, Yupik, or Aleut.)

 

 

 

It sounds to me like your heart is with Austin. I'm not convinced that's the choice I'd make, but I'm not you, and your mind seems made up to me. Follow your heart, and you'll be happier.

[perpetuavix]

If you think your interests are moving towards language, you should probably go to the school with more strength in language. I think we've all heard the idea that your interests change in grad school, but it's likely your interests will change in ways that are supported by the faculty members of wherever you end up. Unless you have an unusual amount of time to do outside reading, your interests will probably change because of the classes you take. Professors generally teach classes on topics where they have a great deal of knowledge, so it seems unlikely you'll develop a new interest that the faculty can't support. 

[zblaesi]

Don't use that word: it's a racial slur. (There's one small exception, because there are a people that call themselves Eskimo, but they're almost certainly not the people you have in mind. Those you probably have in mind are either Inuit, Yupik, or Aleut.)

 

 

 

It sounds to me like your heart is with Austin. I'm not convinced that's the choice I'd make, but I'm not you, and your mind seems made up to me. Follow your heart, and you'll be happier.

 

What would personally tip you in favor of UW-M? I think I'm struggling so much because my heart is so divided. I don't feel a strong intuition one way or another.

Edited April 15, 2014 by zblaesi

[zblaesi]

One other factor I forgot to emphasize: UT offers six years of financial support, versus UW, which offers only five.

[wandajune]

One other factor I forgot to emphasize: UT offers six years of financial support, versus UW, which offers only five.

 

Wisconsin only guarantees five in your financial offer, but to my knowledge, they frequently continue to fund students for 6-7 (maybe more) years who are making progress. I think this is common at many programs.

Also, I sent you a PM with some of my impressions! And I do agree with what everyone here is saying--try to go with whatever you feel will make you happier in the long run.

[maxhgns]

What would personally tip you in favor of UW-M? I think I'm struggling so much because my heart is so divided. I don't feel a strong intuition one way or another.

 

 

UW-M's strengths in metaethics and applied ethics. It's true that Texas-Austin looks much stronger in language and epistemology, but Wisconsin isn't entirely deficient in those respects (it has enough coverage to support the development of an AOC and auxiliary learning, and even an AOS if you work hard), and the two are comparable for metaphysics. Given your current preferences and the cognate areas attached to those preferences, my at-a-glance overview seems to weigh in Wisconsin's favour. Choosing Texas means abandoning metaethics; choosing Wisconsin doesn't mean abandoning language, although it does mean having to work harder for it if you do switch over (which you might very well do). I guess a fair bit hinges on that.

 

There are a lot of ancillary factors that could weigh one way or the other (you probably get more bang for your buck in Madison, but Texas is offering a lot of financial incentives; Madison's grad program is ginormous, but Texas's has climate problems, etc.). And those kinds of things sway me more toward Madison, I think, but that's entirely a matter of my own preferences. It sounds like all these factors are adding up to Texas for you, and as long as you're OK with effectuating an almost immediate switch out of metaethics, that seems like a wise decision to me (you can always relegate it to an AOC!). I think that, given what you're saying, you might come to regret choosing Madison. So... Texas.

[shortstack51]

(Sorry, not a philosophy student, so I don't have much to add regarding scholarship. However, I have a lot of family in the midwest and I know a number of NYC transplants in Texas, so I thought I'd add my 2 cents if it helps.)

 

The travel from Austin to NYC for visits and whatnot will be significantly longer than from Madison. It's a 2-3 hr flight to Milwaukee out of NYC, but (I think) it's somewhere around 5 hrs from Austin. Not a huge difference, but it's also more expensive. If you're planning to drive out when you move, Madison is about a day and a half driving (if you take a break and rent a hotel room for a night; you could drive straight through and probably get there in about 15 hours depending on traffic in Illinois), while Austin is about 25-30 hours with whatever break times in between (a friend who drives there says it usually takes her about 3 days). My family in the midwest actually usually just decides to drive to visit because it doesn't take terribly long. Texas is also a very big state, so it takes a long time to get from Texas to elsewhere if you're traveling. That's a major complaint of my friends who moved there from NYC, which is centrally located to a lot of other areas. However, Houston isn't that far from Austin. From Madison, you'd have access to Milwaukee and Chicago and relatively easy access to the twin cities in MN.

 

It snows a lot in Wisconsin and usually snows at least partway into April. Madison isn't as bad as other cities because it's not right on one of the lakes, but it's still close enough to get lake effect weather in the winter. It does get pretty cold in winter, but I'm from NYC, and I always prefer the winter months over the summer months. I also get very overheated easily and I did not enjoy my time in Texas despite everyone's claims that "dry heat isn't that bad." My scandinavian self still felt like a jalapeno after 10 minutes. Most people basically stay inside with A/C during summer from what I understand. However, I have NYC friends in Houston who love the weather when it's not June/July/August (but they also were summer people before heading there). Culturally, Austin definitely has perks over Madison if that's important to you and it'd probably be a much smoother cultural transition from NYC. And if Austin has more years of funding offered, that's a huge bonus. If your heart is set on UT, I say go for it; I had "a feeling" when I got into the program I ended up choosing and it continued to be the "right" choice despite other offers I received. As irrational as it may sound, I think that's important. You can always adapt to weather, but you can't change how comfortable you feel at a program.

Edited April 15, 2014 by shortstack51

[stressedout]

Dancy is no slouch for metaethics.  And even if you're only gonna see him in the Spring for coursework, he could still end up being your dissertation adviser, or on your committee at least.

 

What about placement record?  I imagine Madison's is better...

[zblaesi]

UW-M's strengths in metaethics and applied ethics. It's true that Texas-Austin looks much stronger in language and epistemology, but Wisconsin isn't entirely deficient in those respects (it has enough coverage to support the development of an AOC and auxiliary learning, and even an AOS if you work hard), and the two are comparable for metaphysics. Given your current preferences and the cognate areas attached to those preferences, my at-a-glance overview seems to weigh in Wisconsin's favour. Choosing Texas means abandoning metaethics; choosing Wisconsin doesn't mean abandoning language, although it does mean having to work harder for it if you do switch over (which you might very well do). I guess a fair bit hinges on that.

 

There are a lot of ancillary factors that could weigh one way or the other (you probably get more bang for your buck in Madison, but Texas is offering a lot of financial incentives; Madison's grad program is ginormous, but Texas's has climate problems, etc.). And those kinds of things sway me more toward Madison, I think, but that's entirely a matter of my own preferences. It sounds like all these factors are adding up to Texas for you, and as long as you're OK with effectuating an almost immediate switch out of metaethics, that seems like a wise decision to me (you can always relegate it to an AOC!). I think that, given what you're saying, you might come to regret choosing Madison. So... Texas.

 

Thanks for this very tactful post. I guess I'm not so sure going to Texas means abandoning metaethics. I've talked to some students doing ethics at Texas, and they seem happy. Jonathan Dancy, for example, is supposed to be good in metaethics, even though he's only there in the spring. Based on my experiences at NYU, it can be easier to get valuable input from philosophers of language on metaethical issues than the vice versa. In fact, Stephen Schiffer has done some significant metaethics (not many people know this), and he was, in certain ways, much more helpful to me than some of the folks concentrating in metaethics. I guess I get the feeling that it might be easier to do well in metaethics at UT than it would be to do well in language at UW.

[zblaesi]

Dancy is no slouch for metaethics.  And even if you're only gonna see him in the Spring for coursework, he could still end up being your dissertation adviser, or on your committee at least.

 

What about placement record?  I imagine Madison's is better...

 

I've looked at the records, but I don't really know how to go about weighing them.