Shorter bachelors degree a hindrance to graduate admissions?

[Teluog]

Teluog, this might be your best bet, and it's true what she/he says: most people going into OT have two Master's, at least, and the academics I know who were admitted to PhD programs in OT with only one Master's had a BA in Religion, for which they did well.

 

(Although, have you considered Gordon-Conwell's MDiv program? That might work out for you too, given your affiliations and your school's affinity with GC. GC might give you some good opportunities, as an alternative to a second BA.)

Having looked around at various faculty at various places, I do in fact see a lot of MDivs. Joseph45 pointed out that an MDiv is also useful for getting a job. I was actually considering pastoral ministry when I first enrolled in bible college, but I realized immediately that I was not ready for preaching or teaching anytime soon, so instead of the 4 year BTh in Pastoral Ministry program I dropped down to the 3 year Arts and Biblical Studies, and of course at the time I had no idea a 4 year bachelor was necessary for doctoral admission. I wonder if it's a good idea to go back and pick up that 4th year?

FYI I'm not planning on applying anywhere anytime soon, I've already decided to take time off of school, partially because I need to figure out what is even a possibility, partially because I just need to work and make money and survive. And partially for a host of personal reasons (eg I don't even know if I'm cut out to preach or teach, I've always had communication issues). So I'm hoping that taking time away from school isn't a I hindrance either, especially if it's for personal growth and to take the time to do personal studying (I have a consortium of theology, biblical studies, psychology, spirituality, and philosophy books).

BTW are graduate schools admission department or program directors helpful on what degrees or types of schools I need to enter their programs? As you've seen, I don't think the profs from my bible college can be very helpful. The reason why my bible college has hardly any profs with doctorates is because those who are working on doctorates come to teach a course as adjunct, then they get their degree and get hired elsewhere.

[cadences]

Having looked around at various faculty at various places, I do in fact see a lot of MDivs. Joseph45 pointed out that an MDiv is also useful for getting a job. I was actually considering pastoral ministry when I first enrolled in bible college, but I realized immediately that I was not ready for preaching or teaching anytime soon, so instead of the 4 year BTh in Pastoral Ministry program I dropped down to the 3 year Arts and Biblical Studies, and of course at the time I had no idea a 4 year bachelor was necessary for doctoral admission. I wonder if it's a good idea to go back and pick up that 4th year?

FYI I'm not planning on applying anywhere anytime soon, I've already decided to take time off of school, partially because I need to figure out what is even a possibility, partially because I just need to work and make money and survive. And partially for a host of personal reasons (eg I don't even know if I'm cut out to preach or teach, I've always had communication issues). So I'm hoping that taking time away from school isn't a I hindrance either, especially if it's for personal growth and to take the time to do personal studying (I have a consortium of theology, biblical studies, psychology, spirituality, and philosophy books).

BTW are graduate schools admission department or program directors helpful on what degrees or types of schools I need to enter their programs? As you've seen, I don't think the profs from my bible college can be very helpful. The reason why my bible college has hardly any profs with doctorates is because those who are working on doctorates come to teach a course as adjunct, then they get their degree and get hired elsewhere.

 

Teluog,

 

1. A four-year Bachelor's is not 'necessary' for admission; it's just that it's the typical kind of BA you would receive under a liberal arts education here in the United States. I'm in a similar situation as you: I don't have a four-year Bachelor's, and my first degree (a BTh) was from a small, Pentecostal bible college where most of my lecturers held only MDivs or MTh/ThMs. I'm currently enrolled in an MA program at what people generally consider a feeder school up in the Northeast, and my three-year BTh has never been an issue for my academic advisor or professors when discussing post-MA options. Granted, the fact that I'm not American might have something to do with it; but all that to say: a three-year Bachelor's will not damn you. And, no, if you do well with an MDiv, MA, or MA/MDiv + ThM, and your work and time during the MDiv elicit strong recommendations from your professors, your Bachelor's won't be an issue.

 

2. In my experience, program directors are generally helpful. Just be polite and sound professional while you explain to them your situation and concerns, and they are usually quite gracious and generous in response.

 

3. One thing about preparing for OT doctoral studies (and this is coming from an OT major) - languages, languages, languages! This was what No One told me during my undergrad, and now a good part of my MA is being spent on scurrying to catch up on all the languages I need/don't have. You will definitely need more than one year's worth of Bibical Hebrew and Greek; other semitic languages are important too - Aramaic, Ugaritic, Akkadian, Syriac if you're into the reception history of the Old Testament, and if you're into the Ancient Near East, West Semitic, Sumerian, Hittite, and Middle Egyptian. And, of course, the most important Semitic language of all: German.*

 

You don't need to have all those languages, btw! I was just trying to be comprehensive-ish. But you'll definitely need (to be competitive): Biblical Hebrew and Greek at at least an intermediate level, one or two additional semitic languages, and German for academic reading (and throw in some French while you're at it if you can!). Right now, I've just completed first-year Hebrew, and I will be taking a class on intermediate classical Greek over the summer while working through an intermediate Hebrew reader on the side; in 2014-2015, I will be taking Hebrew exegesis, Hebrew poetry, Akkadian, and either Syriac to an intermediate level or Ugaritic. In sum: languages, languages, languages!

 

Good luck! I hope you do look at Gordon-Conwell. I suspect it might be your best option at this point, and you can't go wrong with all the resources of the Boston Theological Institute on hand if you get in.

 

*This is an old joke in OT studies, but I love it - it's funny because it's too damn true.

Edited May 11, 2014 by cadences

[theophany]

BTW are graduate schools admission department or program directors helpful on what degrees or types of schools I need to enter their programs? As you've seen, I don't think the profs from my bible college can be very helpful. The reason why my bible college has hardly any profs with doctorates is because those who are working on doctorates come to teach a course as adjunct, then they get their degree and get hired elsewhere.

 

I would agree that your faculty at Emmanuel likely won't be helpful for research doctoral admissions, mostly simply because most of them haven't gone through that process and aren't engaged in choosing doctoral applicants. (I'm a little wary at some implicit anti-evangelical vibe that can sometimes happen on this forum, and want to make sure I'm avoiding that...it's a question of experience and not intelligence.)

 

I'll continue to hold by what I wrote earlier. Don't go get a second bachelors. Instead, see if you can transfer to regionally accredited (preferably nonsectarian) school and finish out with a BA there. It might take two years to cover the requirements, but that's a lot less than four to do an entirely different degree. It might not hurt you to have a BRE, but it won't help you either—which is what you really have to consider with PhD applications. I've written this elsewhere, but top-tier PhD admissions are not so much about checking off boxes and making sure you have all the requirements to be admitted. Everyone who is a legitimate candidate will have those boxes checked; it's about standing out among all of those people. Yes, of course, there are always outliers at every school, but they are seen as outliers for a reason.

 

And writing an admissions officer or a professor of interest at a school you want to attend is not a terrible idea, but make sure you do it appropriately—for the latter, with the idea of beginning a scholarly relationship and not just hounding them for information. But writing to admissions folks with your concerns seems like a good idea to me, better than any advice a bunch of anonymous voices who don't sit on any admissions committees are going to be able to provide you, however well intentioned (or not) we may all be. 

[cadences]

I would agree that your faculty at Emmanuel likely won't be helpful for research doctoral admissions, mostly simply because most of them haven't gone through that process and aren't engaged in choosing doctoral applicants. (I'm a little wary at some implicit anti-evangelical vibe that can sometimes happen on this forum, and want to make sure I'm avoiding that...it's a question of experience and not intelligence.)

 

I'll continue to hold by what I wrote earlier. Don't go get a second bachelors. Instead, see if you can transfer to regionally accredited (preferably nonsectarian) school and finish out with a BA there. It might take two years to cover the requirements, but that's a lot less than four to do an entirely different degree. It might not hurt you to have a BRE, but it won't help you either—which is what you really have to consider with PhD applications. I've written this elsewhere, but top-tier PhD admissions are not so much about checking off boxes and making sure you have all the requirements to be admitted. Everyone who is a legitimate candidate will have those boxes checked; it's about standing out among all of those people. Yes, of course, there are always outliers at every school, but they are seen as outliers for a reason.

 

And writing an admissions officer or a professor of interest at a school you want to attend is not a terrible idea, but make sure you do it appropriately—for the latter, with the idea of beginning a scholarly relationship and not just hounding them for information. But writing to admissions folks with your concerns seems like a good idea to me, better than any advice a bunch of anonymous voices who don't sit on any admissions committees are going to be able to provide you, however well intentioned (or not) we may all be. 

 

As someone who had urged you to consider a GC MDiv/MA, I think this is Very Decent advice too. Do consider what theophany has suggested, Teluog.

[Teluog]

 

3. One thing about preparing for OT doctoral studies (and this is coming from an OT major) - languages, languages, languages! This was what No One told me during my undergrad, and now a good part of my MA is being spent on scurrying to catch up on all the languages I need/don't have. You will definitely need more than one year's worth of Bibical Hebrew and Greek; other semitic languages are important too - Aramaic, Ugaritic, Akkadian, Syriac if you're into the reception history of the Old Testament, and if you're into the Ancient Near East, West Semitic, Sumerian, Hittite, and Middle Egyptian. And, of course, the most important Semitic language of all: German.*

 

You don't need to have all those languages, btw! I was just trying to be comprehensive-ish. But you'll definitely need (to be competitive): Biblical Hebrew and Greek at at least an intermediate level, one or two additional semitic languages, and German for academic reading (and throw in some French while you're at it if you can!). Right now, I've just completed first-year Hebrew, and I will be taking a class on intermediate classical Greek over the summer while working through an intermediate Hebrew reader on the side; in 2014-2015, I will be taking Hebrew exegesis, Hebrew poetry, Akkadian, and either Syriac to an intermediate level or Ugaritic. In sum: languages, languages, languages!.

Language is actually one thing I hope to take care of before I actually go to apply. My question with this is whether or not I should pursue Hebrew and Aramaic and any other ANE language for credit during school or if I should tackle them in my spare time with self study.

[cadences]

Language is actually one thing I hope to take care of before I actually go to apply. My question with this is whether or not I should pursue Hebrew and Aramaic and any other ANE language for credit during school or if I should tackle them in my spare time with self study.

 

As far as you can, get them for credit - I'm personally sacrificing certain thematic courses to take languages instead. From what I know, admissions committees much prefer to see formal evidence of your language proficiency, and while having a few more OT courses on your transcript might help you some during applications, having very few languages recorded down will really work against you.

[Teluog]

I would agree that your faculty at Emmanuel likely won't be helpful for research doctoral admissions, mostly simply because most of them haven't gone through that process and aren't engaged in choosing doctoral applicants. (I'm a little wary at some implicit anti-evangelical vibe that can sometimes happen on this forum, and want to make sure I'm avoiding that...it's a question of experience and not intelligence.)

 

I'll continue to hold by what I wrote earlier. Don't go get a second bachelors. Instead, see if you can transfer to regionally accredited (preferably nonsectarian) school and finish out with a BA there. It might take two years to cover the requirements, but that's a lot less than four to do an entirely different degree. It might not hurt you to have a BRE, but it won't help you either—which is what you really have to consider with PhD applications.

I've been considering this for a while now. But what is a "regionally accredited nonsectarian" school?

I just noticed that Tyndale in Toronto offers a BA in Bible & Theology (including an honours option). They can take up to half the coursework required for a degree in transfer courses.

I've written this elsewhere, but top-tier PhD admissions are not so much about checking off boxes and making sure you have all the requirements to be admitted. Everyone who is a legitimate candidate will have those boxes checked; it's about standing out among all of those people. Yes, of course, there are always outliers at every school, but they are seen as outliers for a reason.

And that raises another important question: how does one stand out among the competition?

[theophany]

I've been considering this for a while now. But what is a "regionally accredited nonsectarian" school?

I just noticed that Tyndale in Toronto offers a BA in Bible & Theology (including an honours option). They can take up to half the coursework required for a degree in transfer courses.

And that raises another important question: how does one stand out among the competition?

 

I just finished looking up how Canadian schools are accredited (turns out, slightly different than the US). In the US, there are agencies that accredit schools in a geographic area (for instance, the Southern Association of Schools and Colleges). In Canada, that is done by the provincial government under the Provincial Minister of Education, which makes it slightly different. An equivalent would be membership in the Association of Universities and Colleges of Canada. The reason I suggest this is because there is generally going to be no doubt among an admissions committee about the "legitimacy" of programs in such an association, and the amount of preparation a student will have received to be able to succeed in graduate work. Certainly other programs might be just as good or better at preparing its students, but that kind of standard benchmark is something that committees use. It's better to alleviate questions in the long run, no matter how biased those questions might be. The concerns in admission committee members' minds are going to be questions of risk at a certain level: Is this student going to withdraw because they aren't ready, which will hurt our retention rate? If we give this student financial aid, will that investment pay out in the long run? Etc. etc. Anyway, I'd take a look at the AUCC website and see if there are programs at any of its member schools that strike your fancy, and apply there.

 

As far as standing out goes, it's a matter of having: excellent letters of recommendation; a clear, interesting, and faculty-appropriate project articulated in the statement of purpose; demonstrated fit with the department; transcripts that express promising (and to some extent directed) scholarship, and explanations for not so great grades; for Hebrew Bible, a variety of language experience; good GRE scores (they usually won't help you, but they can sure as hell hurt you); and so on.

[sacklunch]

Do the language courses first before any content courses, if possible. This will allow you to take upper level content courses that require language prof. Seriously, languages are the most important aspect of your application. If you don't have at least two years of Hebrew and Greek I would not bet on getting in anywhere (for a PhD). And that's the minimum. Other languages will likely be crucial to your application (e.g. German, French, modern Hebrew, Aramaic/Syriac, and the relevant NW Semitic languages).

[RedDoor]

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