Shorter bachelors degree a hindrance to graduate admissions?

[Teluog]

I have a Bachelors of Religious Education in Arts and Biblical Studies from an evangelical Bible College. It was an enjoyable program and I got to study a broad variety of topics, including Bible, theology, new religions and cults, world missions, communication, and I took all 3 Greek courses that were offered as my electives.

I struggled with 3 or 4 courses early on due to personal and family issues but once that got cleared I was getting at least A- on nearly every exam and assignment. I got 4.0 in all 3 Greek courses. My GPA ended up at 3.5.

My biggest concern is that the program was a 3 year program, not a 4 year. I worry if this will hinder admissions into a good MA program in bible or theology, and eventually a top PhD program. I'm considering focusing on Old Testament studies so I know I will need at least 2 introductory Hebrew courses before applying, but will I need to transfer or pick up an entire full time year of undergrad coursework still? Or just a couple more undergrad courses aside from Hebrew?

[Kuriakos]

Was the degree from an accredited institution? 

[bsharpe269]

Is it a BA degree? How many credit hours did you need?

[theophany]

As Kuriakos alluded, it's not so much the length of the program that's a concern as much as it is about the nature of the degree. If the BRE is not from a regionally accredited school, you will likely have a problem getting into a masters program, that could send you to a top PhD program. Many "good" masters programs won't recognize a non-accredited bachelors as meeting their admissions requirements. If this is the case, it would likely be a good idea to try to transfer to a regionally accredited school and finish a BA there. Being realistic, because of the issues of getting classes to transfer, you might end up having to spend more than a year in order to graduate.

[sacklunch]

^agreed. You would be better off transferring general ed courses to a good school (if you are willing to move, too, top schools have much higher admission rates for transfer students) and then do another BA. This isn't a bad option and in fact will help you later in getting into a good PhD program, if that's your goal. This way you can get into a good M* program after the BA. As you may know, most of us in biblical studies/text focused doctoral programs have two M* degrees, usually because of the language requirements before beginning the program, so even with doing another BA you may spend just as much time with your BA being accredited (since you may just have to do one M* degree to be competitive, since you have already started Greek). The second BA, even if it takes you three years, will allow you to move to advanced prof. in Greek, Hebrew, and possibly German, French, mod. Hebrew, Syriac/Aramaic, and any other NW Semitic language appropriate to your interests in HB/OT.

[Teluog]

The college is accredited with ABHE.

The program was 96 credit hours: http://emmanuelbiblecollege.ca/res/pub/Academic_Catalogue/2014-2015/Academic_Program_Offerings/BRE/BRE_Arts_Biblical_Studies.pdf

Apparently McMaster Divinity accepts a lot of students from my school, though mostly for their MDiv. My bible college and current residence is only 45 minutes away from MacDiv, and they have ties to my bible college, since some staff know know each other and the interim president I had is married to the editor of MacDiv's theology journal, who also teaches Greek. They both also go to my mother's church was is basically right behind my apartment!

I'm considering MacDiv's MA in Christian Studies program, if anyone know anything about that. I might create a separate post on this.

[marXian]

Didn't you say you were interested in top tier Ph.D programs? An MA in Christian Studies is likely not going to cut it for TT programs in Old Testament. You need to do an MDiv + ThM or an MA in theology, emphasis biblical studies, etc. "Christian Studies," in my experience, is typically not an "academic" program but a more professional one for non-ordained church staff, people who work for para-church organizations, etc.

[Teluog]

Their MA as stated on their website is designed to prepare PhD students, and biblical studies is one of the emphasis options: http://www.mcmasterdivinity.ca/programs/master-arts-christian-studies

[Macrina]

Before you sign away the next two years of your life on an MA that likely won't get you into a TT PhD program, you may wish to ask for actual stats on the program's graduates. How many go on to PhD work? Where do they go? Have any of the graduates over the past 2-5 years been accepted for a funded PhD at a TT school?

I don't mean to sound negative but doctoral admissions at TT schools are extremely competitive and the degree you currently have (a 3-year Bachelors with a solid B average from a bible college that is not ATS accredited) is not going to get you there. You will need something stronger than an MA from a small Divinity College. Have you considered TST? Because it really is the only TT option in Canada.

To answer your initial question: the length of your degree is not an issue, at least not for MDiv admissions. For more academic masters programs, the length may be an issue but if they are concerned about the length, they will be equally concerned with the relative quality of the degree.

[marXian]

Their MA as stated on their website is designed to prepare PhD students, and biblical studies is one of the emphasis options: http://www.mcmasterdivinity.ca/programs/master-arts-christian-studies

 

Okay, but what sort of Ph.D programs? There are tons of "Ph.D programs" in biblical studies. If you get a Ph.D in biblical studies from McMaster or The Master's Seminary or another small, very conservative evangelical institution, that's the world in which you will remain. You may be fine with that, but those are not "top tier" Ph.D programs. They're insular and, to be blunt, somewhat incestuous (meaning a lot of the PhD students are former MA students, and even some of the faculty are former MA and PhD students.) That's a huge red flag if you're seeking TT PhD programs.

[Teluog]

Before you sign away the next two years of your life on an MA that likely won't get you into a TT PhD program, you may wish to ask for actual stats on the program's graduates. How many go on to PhD work? Where do they go? Have any of the graduates over the past 2-5 years been accepted for a funded PhD at a TT school?

Yes, those are questions I intend to ask any institution offering a master's degree that I'm interested in. That being said, I already asked in a separate thread about top tier PhD programs, but now it needs to be asked: what are top tier or acceptable masters degrees that are accepted at TT PhD programs? I'm looking into the best evangelical or ecumenical schools especially for the masters, since I don't have a denominational tie.

I don't mean to sound negative but doctoral admissions at TT schools are extremely competitive and the degree you currently have (a 3-year Bachelors with a solid B average from a bible college that is not ATS accredited) is not going to get you there. You will need something stronger than an MA from a small Divinity College. Have you considered TST? Because it really is the only TT option in Canada.

I thought MacDiv WAS TT? As for TST, I recently noticed their MA in Theology. It's considered an "advanced degree" even though it is designed for those with no previous theology training and requires a bachelors only in general arts. I'm not sure if any of this matters though when applying for a TT PhD.

To answer your initial question: the length of your degree is not an issue, at least not for MDiv admissions. For more academic masters programs, the length may be an issue but if they are concerned about the length, they will be equally concerned with the relative quality of the degree.

And how do they determine what the quality is?

[Teluog]

Okay, but what sort of Ph.D programs? There are tons of "Ph.D programs" in biblical studies. If you get a Ph.D in biblical studies from McMaster or The Master's Seminary or another small, very conservative evangelical institution, that's the world in which you will remain. You may be fine with that, but those are not "top tier" Ph.D programs. They're insular and, to be blunt, somewhat incestuous (meaning a lot of the PhD students are former MA students, and even some of the faculty are former MA and PhD students.) That's a huge red flag if you're seeking TT PhD programs.

I'm not aware of McMaster being John McArthur conservative. But I would like to avoid finding myself in either a left wing or right wing bubble. My goal is eventually to teach at some kind of ecumenical or evangelical institute, as long as the institute doesn't live in a vacuum.

[sacklunch]

http://chronicle.com/article/nrc-religion/124664/

 

^This is one of the commonly cited rankings for religious studies/religion. While this includes 'theology', one's 'theological' interests may necessitate looking elsewhere...Notwithstanding 'conservative' interests, it's a good place to start for 'TT' doctoral programs. For instance, S-Rank: Programs are ranked highly if they are strong in the criteria that scholars say are most important (they are ranked): Duke, Princeton U, Chicago, UNC-CH, Brown, Brown, Emory, Harvard, Notre Dame, Boston College, Syracuse, Stanford, UPenn, etc.

 

These schools are usually at the top of anyone's list when applying. They are 'TT' based on faculty, funding, resources, and (perhaps most crucial) placement after completion of the doctorate. Browse the above departmental websites to get a good idea of where their graduate students studied before beginning the program. You will find that the top 'evangelical' schools attended (if any) are Fuller and Gordon-Conwell. Though from what I have seen most of the students at TT programs come from the usual big name div schools: harvard, yale, chicago, and so on. Of course you will see plenty of randoms with M* from lesser known schools. So there is a chance of getting into a TT program if you attend McMaster, but the odds are against you. The acceptance rate at most TT programs hovers between 5-10%, and I would guess that at least (??) 25% of the applicants are highly qualified (e.g. coursework at TT M* programs, high comp. in languages, great letters, writing samples, and so on). This combined with the likelihood that you will almost certainly need to get a second M* after attending McMaster (in part because most of us do, but more likely because your undergraduate and prospective M* from McMaster are not 'TT') makes your odds further troubling. 

 

Good luck!

[Joseph45]

Seriously, just talk to the professors you know, especially since you have specific theological interests. There are clearcut top tier programs, but, as the previous conversation witnessed, even those places are frowned upon by people with certain theological positions. And even among those with more liberal theological convictions, some schools are viewed much more favorably than others--people will just think different things about you whether you go to, for example, Chicago, PTS, or Duke for a masters. I don't know what you want people to think of you, or what doctoral programs will be the ones you want to like you.

 

Ask your professors, but, again, please remember that this is a hard path. Getting a masters degree doesn't gurantee entrance to even a mid-level PhD program, no matter where you go. And even more importantly, which many commentators on this site don't really grasp, getting a PhD, even from a toptier program doesn't gurantee you any job at all.

[Teluog]

Browse the above departmental websites to get a good idea of where their graduate students studied before beginning the program.

I can't seem to find any student profiles from any of those schools that show where their PhD students come from.

{You will find that the top 'evangelical' schools attended (if any) are Fuller and Gordon-Conwell. Though from what I have seen most of the students at TT programs come from the usual big name div schools: harvard, yale, chicago, and so on. Of course you will see plenty of randoms with M* from lesser known schools. So there is a chance of getting into a TT program if you attend McMaster, but the odds are against you.

So where do those who obtain master's degrees from TST, Wheaton, and TEDS usually end up going for their PhDs? And I thought MacDiv was top tier or at least 2nd tier, not a "lesser known school."

The acceptance rate at most TT programs hovers between 5-10%, and I would guess that at least (??) 25% of the applicants are highly qualified (e.g. coursework at TT M* programs, high comp. in languages, great letters, writing samples, and so on). This combined with the likelihood that you will almost certainly need to get a second M* after attending McMaster (in part because most of us do, but more likely because your undergraduate and prospective M* from McMaster are not 'TT') makes your odds further troubling. 

Someone already mentioned getting a second bachelors degree. Would it be wise to aim for, for example the MA in Theology at TST or MA in Biblical Exegesis at Wheaton followed by an MTh at a top tier place before attempting a PhD? Are masters degrees at top tier places difficult to get into? MThs especially?

[Teluog]

Seriously, just talk to the professors you know, especially since you have specific theological interests.

None of them have mentioned any top schools at all. In fact, hardly any of the profs have doctorates, even though the academic nature of the courses was challenging intensive. Am I not alone here in wishing that I would have done my bachelors somewhere else?

There are clearcut top tier programs, but, as the previous conversation witnessed, even those places are frowned upon by people with certain theological positions. And even among those with more liberal theological convictions, some schools are viewed much more favorably than others--people will just think different things about you whether you go to, for example, Chicago, PTS, or Duke for a masters. I don't know what you want people to think of you, or what doctoral programs will be the ones you want to like you.

I mentioned earlier that I'm committed to an evangelical or ecumenical/non-denominational position, and am hoping to teach at such a place. I would however love to obtain a "broader" education as long as it's not an extreme liberal or conservative pole. I was wondering if Wheaton or TEDS are at least 2nd tier. I'm under the impression that Duke, Chicago, and Drew are ecumenical in nature?

Ask your professors, but, again, please remember that this is a hard path. Getting a masters degree doesn't gurantee entrance to even a mid-level PhD program, no matter where you go. And even more importantly, which many commentators on this site don't really grasp, getting a PhD, even from a toptier program doesn't gurantee you any job at all.

I'm not having any luck acquiring a half decent job even after graduating with my BRE. This economy I've learned seems to require a gazillion degrees/certificates/licenses/trophies/medals/$$$$$ to find ANY stable employment of any kind anyway. I'm curious though to know what those of us have done who didn't "make the cut" as a scholar/professor. Edited May 7, 2014 by Teluog

[Joseph45]

I don't know how to advise you, and I doubt many others on this forum know how to advise you if you (a) have a 3-year bachelors and ( b ) most of the profs at your school don't have PhDs.

 

It's probably not going to be easy to get into anywhere that will get you somewhere. Again, I just have to think your professors can advise you best here--if they're not mentioning top tier places, there's probably a reason. Even so, just ask them. Be explicit about your goals. Don't let people on this forum who don't really know anything about you misdirect you out of ignorance of your situation. There are too many years and too many dollars at stake.

 

There may not be many job opportunities right now, but that's no reason to spend the next 10 years in graduate school, most likely accumulating significant debt. Like I said, I don't know your specifics well enough to advise you, but, from what I do know, I think the best advise to to figure out how to get into a masters program that can get you a job (e.g., become an SLP, PT, etc.).

Edited May 7, 2014 by Joseph45

[Kuriakos]

 hardly any of the profs have doctorates

 

[sacklunch]

Go back and get a second BA. Otherwise you will likely be apologizing for your questionable undergraduate education all your (hopeful) academic life. As I said, the time you will likely spend in school will be about the same, since most of us have 2 to 3 M* before beginning a doctorate anyways (and thus you may be able to get by with only one M*). As someone said above, talking to your professors is generally the best idea. But since it appears they may not be professors at all, you may be better off (sadly) getting advice from random people on the internet.

[xypathos]

 

I felt the same so I looked at the school's faculty and sure enough - almost none of them have PhDs. It looked like three faculty had PhDs - two from McMaster and one from Waterloo. Most simply have a D.Min and almost all of them from Gordon-Conwell.

[cadences]

Go back and get a second BA. Otherwise you will likely be apologizing for your questionable undergraduate education all your (hopeful) academic life. As I said, the time you will likely spend in school will be about the same, since most of us have 2 to 3 M* before beginning a doctorate anyways (and thus you may be able to get by with only one M*). As someone said above, talking to your professors is generally the best idea. But since it appears they may not be professors at all, you may be better off (sadly) getting advice from random people on the internet.

 

Teluog, this might be your best bet, and it's true what she/he says: most people going into OT have two Master's, at least, and the academics I know who were admitted to PhD programs in OT with only one Master's had a BA in Religion, for which they did well.

 

(Although, have you considered Gordon-Conwell's MDiv program? That might work out for you too, given your affiliations and your school's affinity with GC. GC might give you some good opportunities, as an alternative to a second BA.)

[Kuriakos]

If you have to get another BA to get into a PhD program, you might as well just go into some new field where you can get a job. Get a STEM degree and forget all this. 

[Joseph45]

If most of your profs went to Gordon-Conwell, look into going there. It's a respectable enough program as far as evangelical institutioons go. Ask their admissions people about wanting to go on to a PhD. It's probably not easy to get somewhere from there, but there's a chance. I would add, however, thta it's probably only really worth doing if you could see yourself using an MDiv from there for something else, in case you don't get into a decent PhD program from there.

 

Also, remember not to think backward about what jobs you could get--what I mean is, just because person X has a degree from Y place, and that person has a job (or a job at a certain place) does not mean that you will get a job because you went to Y.

 

Finally, if you're independantly wealthy, considering a second BA and multiple masters degrees before a PhD might be a good idea. I really strongly advise against going down that path, if you're not already wealthy though. I think the best plan would be to ask yourself if you would be happy with an MDiv and the type of job you could get with an MDiv. If you would be, go to Gordon-Conwell or another place that your profs suggest that you could get into, and really apply yourself there. Apply to PhD programs and see what happens. If you don't get into one, take a job with the MDiv. Maybe apply for another cylce or two, but don't dedicate 10-15 years and the front side on a plan that might not even end up with a job. 

 

Best of luck.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Joseph45

[sacklunch]

Some great thoughts above. I also suggest looking at GC if you're thinking of going into a M* (and not a second BA). I have run into half a dozen GC grads at TT doctoral programs (several at Harvard, in fact). They are a bit cheaper than most of the big name schools and have degrees that are focused on ancient languages, which will be your best asset if you hope to get into a TT HB/OT program. Again, though, those I met coming out of GC I think both have two M* from GC (I believe MDiv+ThM or some sort of 4-5 yr combo of M* degrees). It's a long and arduous path with bleak results on the other side. 

[Teluog]

Go back and get a second BA. Otherwise you will likely be apologizing for your questionable undergraduate education all your (hopeful) academic life. As I said, the time you will likely spend in school will be about the same, since most of us have 2 to 3 M* before beginning a doctorate anyways (and thus you may be able to get by with only one M*). As someone said above, talking to your professors is generally the best idea. But since it appears they may not be professors at all, you may be better off (sadly) getting advice from random people on the internet.

As in another bachelors before getting to M*? Would it be possible or wise to attempt an MDiv + MA or MTh? Or would my bachelors still be a hindrance even with a couple M*?