Secular vs Seminary MAs in Bible

[Marcion]

Hey forum, following the advice of a lot of people and reflecting on my own progress, I believe the best course of action for me is to undertake another Masters program, one that will enable me to pick up the ancient languages I never learn't and expose me to the American university education system. From a previous, emotional, and stress filled post, I mentioned that my first undergraduate degree did not go so well, but my Honours program and Masters of Theological Studies have gone gone great and I am exiting with extremely high marks, so I am little less worried about my undergraduate. However I have been looking to see what Masters Programs may appeal to me, keeping in mind it is my goal to be an academic in the field of New Testament and Christian Origins and one day be a Professor and that my darling fiance is also looking at MFA programs around the country. In Australia, religion and theology is not apart of a lot public-secular universities degrees and programs, and the universities that do offer them are via seminaries in partnership. For example, I did my Bachelors via St. Francis Theological College which is linked to Charles Sturt University. So having said that, everyone in my class my Christian and all of my teachers were collars as well. Doing my Masters, I did it via the Australian Catholic University, and pretty much everyone either Catholic or some express of Christian. Me being the black agnostic sheep in the fold. Now I am not saying this was a problem, it never was brought up really apart from two theology classes, which I still did extremely well in, but you mind understand, as America is unknown territory to me, I would like to advice and insight.

 

Loyola University Chiago has a Masters of Biblical Languages and Literature and do not require prior language knowledge upon admission, plus they are a sister school to the Australian Catholic University which might be handy and what is also good is my fiance has lots of MFA programs to choose in Chicago. Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary has the Master of Biblical Languages and so it goes. The concern I keep running into is that all are religiously connected and I am concerned that may or may not be a problem for my admission and my own going study. If it helps, my ideal PhD Program is like the one at the University of Texas at Austin or UNC Chapel Hill or Princeton University, all of which look amazing. Any advice would be great and I would really appreciate any insight you have to offer about being an agnostic/atheist in a seminary or divinity school, MA programs that will help with language achievement without prior knowledge, and just other insights you can offer this Aussie coming to the land of opportunity. 

[Joseph45]

I'm sure other people will soon give you better and more detailed advice, but I have two or three quick thoughts.

 

First, if you're not Christian, don't apply to Gordon-Conwell. It wouldn't be the end of the world, it's just not really for you.

 

I would encourage you to apply broadly (as long as you can afford the application fees). There's no reason to limit your search. 

 

More importantly, be aware that some of the larger div schools in America offer pretty decent funding. I'm thinking about Yale, Harvard, Chicago, etc. These schools, because they are div schools, are kind of religiously affiliated, but many of them are places where you might feel very comfortable, especially Chicago. Also, while those are big name places, but you might be surprised at their admit rates for masters students.

 

Finally, of the phd programs that you mentioned, at least two of them have info about their grad students on their websites. See where they went.

 

Best of luck.

 

p.s., I strongly recommend taking a look at Yale.

[Marcion]

Is that the MA in Religion with a concretion in Bible?

[xypathos]

Most, if not all, of the big name Div. schools offer an MA that allows you to concentrate in biblical studies. For example, Yale: http://divinity.yale.edu/admissions/bible-concentration

 

A particular nod I'll give to evangelical schools is that some of them really focus on language and some of them do languages REALLY well. That said, as Joseph noted - if you're not Christian, you might find the environment troubling. I don't know how well Fuller, for example, does languages but I've known several students come out of the program that praised it and they were also agnostic or atheist.

 

Joseph's suggestion to look to Harvard, Yale, Chicago, maybe Duke, and I'd add Vanderbilt - perhaps Emory too but I don't know anything about the school. These are great schools to look to. They're feeder schools, well known, and offer generous aid to all of their students.

[Marcion]

Thanks xypathos and Joseph45! I had looked at Vanderbilt but sadly they are not taking in students for the Biblical Studies focus in 2014/2015. I have looked at Chicago and they do not offer that great of funding to MA studies, and focus more on funding PhDs. Harvard and Yale having great funding, and several of my friends have suggested I give Harvard's Humanist and Biblical Studies MDiv I crack as a lot of their work and practice skills are great for classroom experiences. xypathos, I have also been told that some evangelical schools are amazing at doing languages and so long as you don't have to agree to a statement of faith or are expected to attend chapel services, and just work on the languages, most people exit fine. Looking at Austin, a few students got their MAs from Vanderbilt, Boston, and Yale. Brown features a lot of it's own MA students going onto PhDs. Princeton University features a wide range from all other the map of public schools and divinity schools. So it does give me hope knowing what is round. Basically I just need to find to a solid MA that will allow me to enter without languages, but prepare me for my PhD studies in the future. 

[Marcion]

OH! And UNC Chapel Hill also features a wide range, including Wheaton College to Minnesota, Duke to Brandeis. Range as well.

[RedDoor]

The MABL at GCTS is definitely a great degree, but you have to sign a statement of faith as a student. Honestly, I think you could get accepted to a BTI school and take language courses at GCTS if you really wanted to (several OT students do this now, but I don't know of many NT/Christian Origins students who do this). A friend of mine from GCTS got into UT-Austin and it really took a mixture of language classes at Harvard Div, GCTS, and BC to do it. He was an OT guy though, so quantity of languages is a bit more important than in NT studies. I would agree that the evangelicals have really made this their own little area in the academy and it really does help acceptance rates, but I am not sure that it would help you at this point without knowing what classes you have taken and/or lack.

 

Remember that fit is a huge issue. A few things to keep in mind (aside from just the weight of the institution's name):

 

1. Potential electives: How many classes can you choose to take outside of the required courses? You might need as little as 5 or as many as 10.

2. Potential classes:  All institutions will offer basic classes, but check out the professors and their specialties to see if they line up with your own. Want to focus on Postcolonial Latin American thought? Fernando Segovia at Vanderbilt's your man. Christian Feminism? Elisabeth Schussler(sp) Fiorenza at Harvard Divinity is the best of the best. Textual criticism? Bart Ehrman at UNC-CH, of course.

3. Potential recommendations: Who is the "top dog" at this institution? Are they in your field? How many classes do they teach a semester? You'll need to take as many as possible to build a relationship with them. It really helps if they are interested and involved in your subfield, but a recommendation from Beverly Gaventa at Baylor, for example, will still speak volumes for you.

 

With all that said and with really just a cursory amount of information about you, I think you'd be better suited for Yale (especially), Emory, Vanderbilt, Chicago, or Harvard. Out of those, I'd highly recommend Yale and Emory for you. Be sure to check out Boston College and Baylor too. I've heard good things about Uni of Wisconsin and Uni of Minnesota, but I'm less familiar with those institutions.

Hope this helps!

[cadences]

Putting out a plug for Princeton Theological Seminary! There's the MA(TS), and we've been intentionally increasing our intake of international students of late.

[cadences]

Caveat: we've lost quite a few NT scholars recently, but we've gained Dale Allison and hired one of our PhDs, who's quite fantastic IMHO. Still, it'll take a while before the NT department becomes as solid as it was before our losses, so I thought that it's only fair to inform you of this downside.

[cadences]

Crap, I just remembered: PTS is really big about training people for ministry and they'll want a pastoral endorsement as part of your application, so you being an agnostic might be a problem, admissions-wise. Sorry to let you down! My bad

[awells27]

I don't know how well Fuller, for example, does languages but I've known several students come out of the program that praised it and they were also agnostic or atheist.

 

 

In OT languages, Fuller has a complete ANE program, which I did as an MA student.  They teach Ugaritic, Akkadian, Biblical Aramaic, NW Semitic Texts, and OT religion and historiography.  In NT, unfortunately, Fuller only offers biblical Greek, and offeres very little in terms of Christian origins and intertestamental Judaism..  They do have a Latin intensive in the summer.  That all being said, the MA degree got me into UCLA's ancient history PhD program.  The problem with these seminaries, unfortunately, is the funding, and the pastoral recommendation requirement.  I managed mine through a church I played organ for part-time  Were I to do it over, I would have opted for an MA program at a university that offered legit funding.  

Edited May 19, 2014 by awells27

[sacklunch]

I think I mentioned it before, but look at GTU's MA in Biblical Languages. They will not care if you're agnostic and you can take classical Greek at UC Berkeley. Plus their tuition is much lower than most of the big name schools. They have great placement record, too. 

[Marcion]

To answer your question about my real drive and focus and passion, I am really interested in early Christian conflict and polemics, mostly "Pauline/Gentile Christianity" and "Christian Judaism", but also Gnosticism and stuff like that. I love studying conflict, trying to figure what the "other side" was saying about Paul, what their beliefs were, and figuring out why they did win the day in the end in very broad strokes. Sadly the man who I would have done anything to study under, Michael Goulder passed away (plus he was in the UK). 

[Marcion]

Any one got any comments on the Pacific School of Religion's MA program in Languages?

[awells27]

Any one got any comments on the Pacific School of Religion's MA program in Languages?

I read over their course requirements.  http://gtu.edu/sites/default/files/users/gtudean/MA-Progam-Handbook-2013-2014.pdf

 

It claims to be designed for students looking to progress to the PhD level.  Like all MA programs, it will never give one all the tools one should have for entering a PhD program. However, it has the advantage of not requiring a faith comittment, and it probably is among the superior research MAs in religion.  If one can get at least two recommendations in this program from noted profs, it is also well worth it.   I agree with the person who advised taking Attic Greek at Berkeley.   I wish I had started this way instead of doing it in reverse. If the program offers some degree of flexibility, one could find the time to study Latin and a modern research language.   

Edited May 20, 2014 by awells27

[Marcion]

Man, you guys weren't kidding with the evangelicals really cornering the market on intense languages MAs!

[RedDoor]

Have you looked at any consortium that might be helpful for you? It might be possible to attend a university and take languages at an evangelical school. The ones I know about are the Boston Theological Institute (and take GCTS classes), Washington Theological Consortium (Wesley or RTS), and ACTS Chicago (TEDS).

[awells27]

Man, you guys weren't kidding with the evangelicals really cornering the market on intense languages MAs!

To an extent that's true, but not in full.  Remember that the evangelical seminary will focus on biblical Hebrew and New Testament Greek.  They will rarely address the Hebrew and Aramaic of later antiquity, and without a firmer foundation in Attic Greek and Latin, as well as the Greek manuscripts of later antiquity, one's reading of primary sources in these languages will be at a disadvantage.  One needs to be creative in acquiring the proper languages.  I would think joint programs like Hebrew Union/Univ. of Cincinnati, or the ANE program at UCLA alongside its Classics dept, would be the way to go.  

[sacklunch]

^ Agreed. Having studied several ancient languages at both Catholic and Protestant schools (flagships), I can without a doubt say that the Catholics, at least in my own experience, prepare their students better for academic work using the languages. The Protestant schools tend to have a lot more students interested in taking Greek/Hebrew, many also very interested in ministry, thus changing the trajectory of these courses substantially. The result is often much time spent on 'practical application' of language study such as in ministry and so on, while the Catholic schools, much like secular departments (and liberal private schools, too), focus almost entirely on philology. Moreover, and as awells said, many Protestant language courses are limited to the[ir] 'biblical canon,' such that 'Greek' becomes NT Greek, and so on. Do yourself a favor and begin your language study in a Classics Dept., RS. Dept., or a NELC Dept. 

 

I mentioned GTU's MA in BL because it would allow you to take languages at UC-Berkeley and their tuition is about half of most private schools. If you apply, I would apply to the Jesuit school, given that they have more funds and your background may give you a leg up. Plus the Jesuits could care less if you're an atheist/agnostic/secular person. 

[Joseph45]

I strongly agree with awells27 and sacklunch.

 

It's not that I think Evangelical schools don't do a good job on language training, its the selection of what they study (and what they avoid by focusing only on languages). It's fine for some things, but it's pretty narrow from other perspectives--and that's one of the reasons you'll be viewed a certain way if you're coming out of one of these schools. Even if you aren't an evangelical, the degree signals a certain type of approach to the text.

 

Also, keep in mind, you can do a lot of good language work without being enrolled in a degree that is specifically about languages.

[awells27]

I would contact POIs at prospective schools and frame the question according to the degree objective.  For example, "Can the school, in constructing a viable MA for Christian origins, offer Greek and Latin through the Classics dept. and rabbinic/DSS/Targum Hebrew and Aramaic through NELC and/or Judaic Studies?  I would think UCLA, GTU, and Hebrew Union would be prime choices.  An MA of this nature would look more impressive, in my estimation, than one from an evangelical seminary.  That being said, Fuller and Gordon Conwell students get accepted into PhD programs regularly.