KU's MA in Religious Studies

[sacklunch]

FWIW I was rejected from the MARc in 2nd Temple. I had a decent amount of both Greek and Latin at the time. I remember John Collins telling me in an email that he likes students in this concentrate to able to read unpointed Hebrew before coming in! Since I didn't have any Hebrew at the time I'm pretty sure my app was tossed in the trash. In hindsight I should have applied to the general.

[Marcion]

Yes the more general one is seeming more and more like a good option. Is that the same with HDS, or should I apply to the Humanist M'Div?

[xypathos]

The M.Div at any of the large schools isn't as "priestly" as you might think it is. Most of them have other options to satisfy say a preaching course by simply taking a public speaking course of some degree, or just simply not making it required. Make sure when looking at the M.Div degree that you focus on the required courses specifically. The added benefits of the M.Div are 1) better funding, and 2) an extra year to do more languages/seminars/etc.

 

Using Vandy as an example. Of the required courses, four don't have a direct tie-in to academic study: the supervised ministry, and the sequence of courses that I'll loosely label as 'Ministry.' Of the 'Ministry' sequence, they offer multiple courses that fulfill those needs so depending on what you feel drawn to study, you do have significant wiggle room there. As per the supervised ministry, I contend that the experience and skill set you'll pick up there will be beneficial to you as a person throughout life because of the diverse population you'll be exposed to. Vandy also gives you quite a bit of wiggle room to decide where you'll serve too.

[Marcion]

That is a really good point. I noticed something like that PTS.

[awells27]

The extra year to concentrate on languages could be key, even if it meant one year of simply post-grad courses in languages and a 2 year MA.  For that particular PhD concentration, I would want to show competency, in terms of Greek, Latin, Hebrew, and Aramaic, in at least 3 out of 4.  I actually felt uneasy about not being prepared in Latin for the last round of apps.  

[sacklunch]

I would still be weary of an MDiv. While some programs may allow 'wiggle room' many MDiv programs are still fairly slim with their elective options. I'm not saying you wouldn't be able to get to intermediate-advanced in one ancient language, but the ability to do so in 2 or 3, as well as one modern language, seems a bit unlikely. Not only that, but you will most likely not able to take classical Greek (101) in a school's classics department because it isn't 'graduate level' (and yet it will no doubt be harder than 'Koine 701'). Vandy may very well be an exception, though. I still think you would be better off pursuing an MTS/MAR or an M* from a good state school, but as the others have noted funding is (sadly) always better for MDiv programs. Apply far and wide but just be sure to read the fine print on what each program allows for language courses and so on (a problem that plagues MTS programs, too!).

[komodoredragon]

@TheResidentAlien, you might add Hebrew Union College (Cincinnati) to your list. They have a tuition-funded M.A. program (or at least have in years past), and the program is very text-intensive, so you'll get to work on your languages. No stipend, but Cincinnati is very affordable, so it's not too crazy to work PT. HUC is a Reform Jewish seminary, but the graduate program is totally secular academic-oriented, i.e. no pastoral/ministry classes.

 

The only hitch is you at least need some Hebrew coming in, even for the M.A. I've seen people do it with a couple semesters of biblical Hebrew, maybe more. So if you're open to working through a grammar or getting a tutor first, it might be a good option. It's at least worth inquiring now to see what their requirements are; the worst they'll do is say no!

 

For other languages, like Greek and Aramaic, many people have them coming in, but I don't think it's required for the core classes. They do offer an introductory Aramaic sequence every other year or so. HUC also has a consortium agreement with the University of Cincinnati (a 10-minute walk), so you can take any classes there free of charge. This is useful because UC has a phenomenal classics department -- you would be covered for Greek and Latin.

 

Hope this helps, feel free to PM with any questions.

[awells27]

I brought up HUC in an earlier thread.  The only thing to be careful of is that, as a Jewish Seminary, there may be a modern Hebrew requirement coming in.  That is worth checking into.  Otherwise, this would definitely be a place to pick up on the languages.  

[komodoredragon]

Unless it's directly relevant to your subfield, I believe you do not need modern Hebrew coming in. That's only a requirement for the rabbinical students. Ph.D. students may take modern Hebrew for reading proficiency, but that's it. If you inquire into the program, you can get more official answers for all this :-)

[komodoredragon]

One more thing: The person to contact for these questions is Dr. Nili Fox, the DGS. Her email will be on huc.edu. I'm an alum myself (and a very satisfied one!), so do feel free to ask further questions.

[sacklunch]

The extra year to concentrate on languages could be key, even if it meant one year of simply post-grad courses in languages and a 2 year MA.  For that particular PhD concentration, I would want to show competency, in terms of Greek, Latin, Hebrew, and Aramaic, in at least 3 out of 4.  I actually felt uneasy about not being prepared in Latin for the last round of apps.  

 

Well said! Though I think those of us in late antiquity (esp. those of us who work in the 'East') have more rigorous requirements. I work in reception of the HB in the late antique East, which requires one to not only be proficient in biblical Hebrew and it's later attestations (Aramaic/Syriac), but also Greco-Latin sources (biblical recensions). This requires the 'full rainbow' of antique languages and is a bit extreme for most students coming into a doctoral program. One interested in the (Greek) NT may in fact only need half of these languages before beginning. Regardless I still think it is absolutely crucial you pursue another M* that will allow you to chiefly study the classical languages. Even if you have another M* from an ivy, without a strong foundation in the languages, your application will simply not be competitive (given your interests!). Choose a program accordingly!!     

[Marcion]

I have been quite drawn to the University of Oregon's MA. It doesn't seem to require languages upon admission, and apparently an Inter-Disciplinary Masters can be organised in Religion and Classics. Thoughts?
http://classics.uoregon.edu/programs/graduate-program/

[Body Politics]

Iliff School of Theology has both an MA and an MTS that, far as I can tell, don't have a language requirement. Placement into doctoral programs is pretty good (I have a friend who landed at Marquette). And, believe me, you don't need to be a Christian (or a theist) to study there.  There is also a strong emphasis on interdisciplinary work here.
 

Anyway, IST might be a good "second-tier" option that is still respectable (you could do way worse than Pam Eisenbaum, after all). FWIW.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Body Politics

[awells27]

I believe at Iliff/Denver, one would be restricted to NT Greek.  The program at Oregon would depend on whether the religion department can set up your core requirements so as to fit your projected PhD emphasis.  I would see what the faculty there specialize in.  I noticed also that Oregon's Judaic Studies department has a three-term Hebrew sequence.  

 

It would seem from all the research, a number of schools possibly fit the bill for a second MA

Edited June 24, 2014 by awells27

[marXian]

I have been quite drawn to the University of Oregon's MA. It doesn't seem to require languages upon admission, and apparently an Inter-Disciplinary Masters can be organised in Religion and Classics. Thoughts?

http://classics.uoregon.edu/programs/graduate-program/

 

I really feel like we went through this on a different thread a few months ago... But I'll give a general answer. I think the conventional wisdom is that people from the major divinity schools (Harvard, Yale, Duke) or PTS tend to have the best odds of getting into a PhD program. The MAR/MTS/MA tracks in those programs are designed to groom students into more-than-viable PhD candidates. Anytime someone asks me for advice in choosing between programs, and their choices are, for example, Fuller and Duke, I always tell them to go to Duke (if their ultimate goal is a PhD program.) 

 

Oregon is obviously a reputable research institution, but it seems to me if you went that route you would still want to do another MA afterward from one of the major Div schools since I seem to remember you saying your Australian graduate degree didn't include languages, and having a M* degree either in RS or from a div school/seminary looks good when applying to those types of schools for the PhD. The other thing to keep in mind, as others I think have already mentioned, is that admission rates to a state program, especially a Classics program when you don't have a degree in Classics, is going to be far more competitive than one of the big name div schools. In your post where you mentioned your programs of interest in bold, you said you didn't know about your odds for YDS, HDS, or DDS. They are much, much better than your odds of getting into Oregon's Classics department. I'd say of the programs you listed, your chances are by far the lowest for Oregon.

[Averroes MD]

I really feel like we went through this on a different thread a few months ago... But I'll give a general answer. I think the conventional wisdom is that people from the major divinity schools (Harvard, Yale, Duke) or PTS tend to have the best odds of getting into a PhD program. The MAR/MTS/MA tracks in those programs are designed to groom students into more-than-viable PhD candidates. Anytime someone asks me for advice in choosing between programs, and their choices are, for example, Fuller and Duke, I always tell them to go to Duke (if their ultimate goal is a PhD program.) 

 

Oregon is obviously a reputable research institution, but it seems to me if you went that route you would still want to do another MA afterward from one of the major Div schools since I seem to remember you saying your Australian graduate degree didn't include languages, and having a M* degree either in RS or from a div school/seminary looks good when applying to those types of schools for the PhD. The other thing to keep in mind, as others I think have already mentioned, is that admission rates to a state program, especially a Classics program when you don't have a degree in Classics, is going to be far more competitive than one of the big name div schools. In your post where you mentioned your programs of interest in bold, you said you didn't know about your odds for YDS, HDS, or DDS. They are much, much better than your odds of getting into Oregon's Classics department. I'd say of the programs you listed, your chances are by far the lowest for Oregon.

Looks like you answered the question I had in another thread here.

Do you think it's just because of available spots and funding? Seems like many MA programs have only a couple spots available.

[sacklunch]

^^ I'll answer here instead of the other thread!

 

Yup, that's it, I think. Well that and many Div students are cash cows. While some students are getting substantially aid, many (most?) are paying out the ass. The mainline divinity schools have loads of faculty and resources and they need support!. I have heard it over and over again over the years: "But it's Harvard!" Meh. Don't get me wrong, it's great. But you are one out of a hundred+ MTS in just one year. Do HDS students fare better than Oregon MA students in their doctoral apps? How would we test this...? Because places like HDS, YDS, and DDS are so damn big I think their success rate is often exaggerated. I'm not saying you can't do incredibly well at these places. Far from it! I am merely pointing out that you/they are one of countless students planing a similar (uncertain) future. Those small programs like Oregon (or a smaller private option like Duke's MA in RS), by accepting less than 10 MA students a year, can generally funnel more attention into their MA students. I have done both and the latter is preferable any day IMHO.

[marXian]

AverroesMD, it's worth noting that there are very very few terminal MA programs in religious studies in the US. I agree with sacklunch that doing a funded MA at non-seminary/div school is preferable for the reasons listed. I too have an MA from a state school (in English) and an MAT from a seminary. I had personal attention, tuition remission, and stipend for the English MA and none of that for the MAT. Of course, the English MA only indirectly helped me in my prep for my PhD and wasn't part of a strategy to gain entrance into an RS PhD program.

 

That said, it's worth noting that our field is really different from the majority of academic fields. Seminaries/div schools are the grad school exception, not the rule, i.e. people in other humanities/social sciences fields don't have dedicated institutions in their field which admit about 50% of applicants. All of those people have to compete at programs in their field for 1 of 10-20 spots. 

 

Entrance to an RS program really depends a lot on one's specific field much more than in other humanities fields. For example, a prospective philosophy applicant could be interested in metaphysics and another in ethics, but both need a degree in philosophy (ignoring, of course, all of the Leiter politics with philosophy programs.) In any given RS department, there may be people who study Buddhism, bioethics, Islam, Christian theology, American religions, Hinduism, Talmud, Hebrew Bible, New Testament... you get the idea. These all have their own unique preparations, the paths through which vary widely. People coming into RS programs have a wide range of degrees, which may or may not be in RS specifically. All of that to say: It's really, really hard to narrow in on what gives one the best chances of getting into a PhD program in RS.

[Marcion]

Looks like me and the Mrs-to-be are going to have to have a serious chat about where we might be living and studying.

[awells27]

What will set apart a PhD app is its uniqueness taken in its entirety.  If one looks at the Phd student profile from a number of schools, while they will see admits from the top divinity schools, there are also people with resumes coming from schools as diverse as Univ. of Washington, Southwest Baptist, Hebrew University, Fuller, Michigan, and Gordon Conwell.   I would be considering what sets your app apart, not what makes it like everyone else's.  A strong faculty adviser can aIso make a huge difference.  While Fuller does not enjoy the greatest reputation, its ANE dept. is consistently producing PhD admits (there will be 4 applicants this Fall's round, and I would bet that at least two of them receive decent offers), in large part because the chair of the department trains his students thoroughly for both the application process and the work that comes after.  In the end, the reputation of the school will only be one among many deciding factors. 

[sacklunch]

^ Yes, yes, yes. 

 

In the OP's case quickly gaining proficiency in the ancient languages is absolutely the most crucial part of the program s(he) completes. The program's 'prestige' will matter very little if s(he) is only able to complete two years of Koine and nothing else. An 'insignificant' state school program that allows one to study almost entirely languages may just give him/her the edge to get into a great program. Don't be fooled by the fancy bullshit. Our field is ruthless with its language requirements and without a solid foundation your app will quite simply see the trashcan. YOU GOT DIS! 

[AbrasaxEos]

I would however, suggest emailing with someone at U of Oregon, etc. (any classics M.A. that you are looking at), to be 100% there is no language requirement.  Glancing at the requirements from the link you posted, even with the interdisciplinary one, you need to "Pass with a grade of mid-B or better five courses in Greek and/or Latin authors" - I would very strongly assume that these courses would be in Greek and/or Latin, and coming in with neither, this would probably mean having your entire first year and first summer taken up with mostly beginning courses so that in your second, you could then take the requisite 5 courses in the specific authors, while also completing the necessary work to complete your degree.  This seems to me not simply a "rigorous" program, but possibly not able to be done, if only because there might not be three separate courses that you can take in Greek or Latin authors in a single year.  So, despite there not being a explicit language requirement, I would shoot an email to a director or something to see whether this would be feasible coming in with no languages.  Maybe they'll let you do it in three, but this of course means that you'll have to pay another year of tuition, fees, etc.