Chances with a 2.91 GPA

[CognitiveAesthetics]

Greetings everyone,

 

I’m looking for some advice about graduate school options for someone with a low GPA.  I know there’s a thread on this website dedicated exclusively to low-GPAs who got into PhD programs with funding – however, I found that many of those programs are science and technology related fields – in which many applications have had sub-3.0 threads.  I’ve noticed this is not so much the case with Philosophy and other Humanities-related fields in which GPAs tend to be above the 3.5 mark.  So I don’t know how much that thread would be relevant to my particular predicament.

 

I got my undergraduate education from GWU in DC.  After a few years, I ended up majoring in Philosophy because I enjoyed the concepts.  After four years at GW, I graduated with a 2.91 GPA.  This was not due to my inability to grasp the concepts being taught – on the contrary, I thoroughly understood the concepts but found it difficult to retain a steady pace of work.  This resulted in many missed classes, last-minute essay writing, and a few incompletes (which remained incompletes – hence the low GPA).  I’d say that my immaturity in college really hurt my potential.  Whereas I understood the concepts being taught, and enjoyed learning more about concepts, my inability to retain a steady pattern of work ethics, and down-right conscious refusal to write in a clear prose due to enjoying style more than rigor have hurt me tremendously.

 

I’m now working on not repeating the same mistakes I did in college.  Since graduating, I’ve taken a job teaching an introductory course on Philosophy at the community college I transferred to GW from.  I have found that I really enjoy teaching.  I’ve also learned a lot teaching and this has compounded my vested interest in continuing to learn.  However, I know that I can’t teach many classes if I don’t have an MA or a PhD. 

 

My question is, what should someone with a low GPA do in order to increase their chances at a well-known graduate program?  My professors have suggested that I apply to a terminal MA program and do well there.  Others have suggested that I apply to English programs since my interests lay more in Political and Social Philosophy and Aesthetics. That way I can actually still write about issues pertaining to social justice, politics and ethics. 

 

At this point, I know that I want to eventually get a PhD and work in academia. It’s a passion I’ve had for a long time now and don’t see it wavering even after having graduated.  I plan on continuing to teach my class for one more year before applying to a terminal MA program.  Aside from that, I don’t know if I have a shot.  I’d greatly appreciate any advice with regards to what I must do in order to have a better chance at admissions to a program.

 

Thank you all for your time and advice!

 

Best Regards,

 

 

[Establishment]

Are there any positive patterns concerning your grades that letter writers can identify? Did you get your act together during your final two years? Despite your core curriculum work, did you maintain a ~4.0 within your major? If you have negative responses to all of those two, your chances at graduate school, even for a terminal M.A., are going to look incredibly dicey so far as I can tell. Even if your writing sample is superb, there is literally no evidence that were you to be admitted that you'd have success with the graduate program's coursework. Graduate programs, even terminal M.A.'s, are going to have a whole host of other students with as strong writing samples, but without a terrible GPA from which to select.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Establishment

[dgswaim]

I can only really echo what Establishment has said. You might be able to get in someplace with a good writing sample, but it will likely be very difficult to secure funding. One route you might consider, if you apply and find that you're not successful, would be to take some graduate philosophy seminars as a non-degree student and do well so as to demonstrate your seriousness. Adcoms are gonna want some evidence that you're ready to focus on graduate level work. That's one way to provide it.

[m-ttl]

Greetings everyone,

 

I’m looking for some advice about graduate school options for someone with a low GPA.  I know there’s a thread on this website dedicated exclusively to low-GPAs who got into PhD programs with funding – however, I found that many of those programs are science and technology related fields – in which many applications have had sub-3.0 threads.  I’ve noticed this is not so much the case with Philosophy and other Humanities-related fields in which GPAs tend to be above the 3.5 mark.  So I don’t know how much that thread would be relevant to my particular predicament.

 

I got my undergraduate education from GWU in DC.  After a few years, I ended up majoring in Philosophy because I enjoyed the concepts.  After four years at GW, I graduated with a 2.91 GPA.  This was not due to my inability to grasp the concepts being taught – on the contrary, I thoroughly understood the concepts but found it difficult to retain a steady pace of work.  This resulted in many missed classes, last-minute essay writing, and a few incompletes (which remained incompletes – hence the low GPA).  I’d say that my immaturity in college really hurt my potential.  Whereas I understood the concepts being taught, and enjoyed learning more about concepts, my inability to retain a steady pattern of work ethics, and down-right conscious refusal to write in a clear prose due to enjoying style more than rigor have hurt me tremendously.

 

I would think your biggest concern would be knowing if you know how to (and can prove to yourself) you can buckle down and retain a steady pace of work, attend all your classes, write your essays on time, and finish your work, write in a readable prose not in a stylish mimic of James Joyce (which would be inappropriate for academic writing). 

 

You'd have to prove with multiple recommendation letters, and I'm assuming -- additional courses at a higher level -- that you don't just understand the material, but can also handle the actual work. If you can't prove the latter, at minimal, you won't have much of a shot at graduate school, because time management, work, readings, following the expected academic styles for your field, and having a work ethic are all things you need to be successful. 

[CognitiveAesthetics]

Thanks for the advice.  I take it that I'm going to have to demonstrate competency with regards to working at a steady pace and maintaining that pace without faltering.  And that's exactly why I didn't apply to graduate school right away.  I knew I needed time get my act together.  And thus far, it's been going pretty well for me.  I still don’t think I’m where I need to be quite yet but I hope to be within another year or so.  In the meantime, I want to know if even studying for the GREs would be a waste of time at this point.

 

Interestingly enough though - and this is what's partially throwing me off - is that some of my professors (even one who gave me a C- in a Theory of Knowledge class) still suggest I apply to graduate school.  One of them even told me he'd talk to a friend of his in a Rhetoric department at a pretty well-known research university and put me in touch whenever I'm actually ready to apply (this is the one who gave me a C-).  Granted, that's not a Philosophy program but nonetheless, he's aware of my situation and has seen the worst of me, so to speak.  I have another professor who's in the History program and has been on the admissions committee for the University for some time now.  He's pretty well-known in the department and I've taken four classes with him.  Though he doesn't have a PhD in Philosophy he did get an M.Phil from Cambridge in their awesome History and Philosophy of Science program.  Again, he's also very adamant that I apply to graduate school - and says that though my grades aren't anything to brag about, the LORs and the writing sample are going to be of great importance.  He suggested that I apply to an MA program after taking some time off and try to do as best as I can in that program.  He's also interested in writing an LOR for me.  I've known him for about four years now and we've been keeping in touch since I first took a class with him (ironically, it was his history class that got me into Philosophy).  The last class I took with him was a graduate-level class which I sat in on (I wasn't officially registered for this class - but he invited me to sit in on it).  

 

What these professors – and a few other tenured professors I haven't mentioned – seem to tell me is that my post-college experience demonstrates that I have a passion to teach.  And that that’s an attribute that graduate schools would appreciate. 

 

If it’s not possible for a person with my criteria to get into a graduate program in Philosophy, are my shots at another PhD program equally miniscule?  I suspect they’re not that different in terms of emphasizing undergraduate GPA and thus, my predicament would still be every bit as relevant.

 

Thanks!

Edited June 13, 2014 by CognitiveAesthetics

[perpetuavix]

I have a 3.27 undergrad GPA, and I was reasonably successful this year. I think two things (other than my LORs and writing sample) really helped me: I have teaching experience, and I had an excellent GPA from my (education) masters.

I really think your teaching experience is an asset, although I think it matters more to PhD programs than to terminal Masters programs (since pretty much all PhDs have teaching requirements, but only some Masters do). It's something you should talk about in your SOP. I used the data from APA about which schools give primarily/exclusively teaching fellowships (which to me, signifies that they value teaching) to decide where to apply and tailor my SOP. I got the info from here: http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.apaonline.org/resource/resmgr/grad_guide/gg12_phdcomp.pdf?hhSearchTerms=%22gg12%22  although I can't find a comparable format for the 2013 data on APA's website. 

It does seem like proving yourself in graduate level work would help your chances. You could apply to philosophy or English Masters programs, but you could also take philosophy classes as a nondegree student. Since you're still in the DC area, You can look at UMD or UVa to see if they accept nondegree students. I would imagine they do, because most schools are more than happy to take your money.

PhD admissions have a great deal of randomness in them to start with. I think there are probably some schools where your GPA will automatically disqualify, no matter what else your file looks like. But there are probably other schools where you still stand a chance, as long as you make every other part as strong as possible. It sounds like you'll have strong LORs, but what about your writing sample? Your statement of purpose? Your GREs? As much as people don't like GREs, I think a strong score (165+ V and 160+ Q) would be very valuable to show that your GPA isn't representative of your ability. 

[CognitiveAesthetics]

Thanks for your reply.  I'm actually planning on starting the GREs this summer.  I've just ordered some test-prep material and am awaiting their arrival.  Aside from that, I think at this point, I'm going to do the following:

 

- Prep myself for the GRE so that when I take it, I can get a strong score. 

- Continue to prep myself in terms of ability to focus and work for long periods of time

- Once I have a GRE score, apply to terminal MA programs in Philosophy

- Work on some writing samples using essays I wrote in undergrad.  I did well on these essays but would like to improve them further by making them more rigorous. I have a few professors who I'm still pretty close to that will review them once I'm finished.

 

If I do well in these programs, I will continue to seek a PhD in either Political Philosophy or Rhetoric/English.  Rhetoric and English departments can be nice in that they allow for an examination into topics I'm interested in.  But that said, I would like to gain the methodology that analytic Philosophy provides.  So that's my plan as of now.

 

I appreciate everyone's input.  I'll keep you guys updated regarding everything.

[Nastasya_Filippovna]

I have a 3.27 undergrad GPA, and I was reasonably successful this year. I think two things (other than my LORs and writing sample) really helped me: I have teaching experience, and I had an excellent GPA from my (education) masters.

I really think your teaching experience is an asset, although I think it matters more to PhD programs than to terminal Masters programs (since pretty much all PhDs have teaching requirements, but only some Masters do). It's something you should talk about in your SOP. I used the data from APA about which schools give primarily/exclusively teaching fellowships (which to me, signifies that they value teaching) to decide where to apply and tailor my SOP. I got the info from here: http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.apaonline.org/resource/resmgr/grad_guide/gg12_phdcomp.pdf?hhSearchTerms=%22gg12%22  although I can't find a comparable format for the 2013 data on APA's website. 

It does seem like proving yourself in graduate level work would help your chances. You could apply to philosophy or English Masters programs, but you could also take philosophy classes as a nondegree student. Since you're still in the DC area, You can look at UMD or UVa to see if they accept nondegree students. I would imagine they do, because most schools are more than happy to take your money.

PhD admissions have a great deal of randomness in them to start with. I think there are probably some schools where your GPA will automatically disqualify, no matter what else your file looks like. But there are probably other schools where you still stand a chance, as long as you make every other part as strong as possible. It sounds like you'll have strong LORs, but what about your writing sample? Your statement of purpose? Your GREs? As much as people don't like GREs, I think a strong score (165+ V and 160+ Q) would be very valuable to show that your GPA isn't representative of your ability. 

If it makes you feel any better, I am the inverse- my GPA is stellar, but my GREs are abominable - and I mean that in every sense of the word. My verbal was a mediocre 158 and my math was a devastating 143. I am not only weak at math to begin with, but to achieve any accuracy I have to work at a snail's pace and only finished about half the questions per math section. I'm retaking the GREs, but I'm not going to bank on any substantial improvement - it would be foolish to at this point. I figure that this puts us in the same basic position, given that both GPA and GREs are the initial screening process data! Let's hope that some institutions are willing to review the rest of the dossier and look at evidence that reveals more substance such as writing sample and letters of recommendation!

[Gnothi_Seauton]

If your writing sample is really stellar and your LORs suggest that your GPA is not indicative of your potential, then you might be in with a shot.  But one important thing worth noting is that graduate schools (not specific programs, but the graduate schools themselves) often set minimum GPAs for admission, and that minimum is generally 3.0 or so.  You should figure out the requirements of the graduate school before applying, and if your GPA falls below the minimum, you should figure out if they are at all flexible.  

[hj2012]

Would it be possible for you to retake some of the classes you did poorly in and replace those grades? This might be worthwhile even if those classes were not philosophy related.

[Establishment]

If it makes you feel any better, I am the inverse- my GPA is stellar, but my GREs are abominable - and I mean that in every sense of the word. My verbal was a mediocre 158 and my math was a devastating 143. I am not only weak at math to begin with, but to achieve any accuracy I have to work at a snail's pace and only finished about half the questions per math section. I'm retaking the GREs, but I'm not going to bank on any substantial improvement - it would be foolish to at this point. I figure that this puts us in the same basic position, given that both GPA and GREs are the initial screening process data! Let's hope that some institutions are willing to review the rest of the dossier and look at evidence that reveals more substance such as writing sample and letters of recommendation!

 

I think abominable GRE's are infinitely better than an abominable philosophy GPA.

[Nastasya_Filippovna]

I think abominable GRE's are infinitely better than an abominable philosophy GPA.

That's comforting to hear. I certainly hope I can raise the math score. If I can get it somewhere in the lower 150s (given from where I'm coming - I'm being very pragmatic and realistic about this) I would be thrilled. Just to be somewhere beyond the "I can count to potato" range I'm currently in. 

Edited June 14, 2014 by Nastasya_Filippovna

[CognitiveAesthetics]

That's comforting to hear. I certainly hope I can raise the math score. If I can get it somewhere in the lower 150s (given from where I'm coming - I'm being very pragmatic and realistic about this) I would be thrilled. Just to be somewhere beyond the "I can count to potato" range I'm currently in. 

I tend to agree with Establishment - I think the low GRE scores are preferable to a low undergraduate GPA.  I think applying and hoping for the best is our best bet.

Edited June 14, 2014 by CognitiveAesthetics

[CognitiveAesthetics]

Would it be possible for you to retake some of the classes you did poorly in and replace those grades? This might be worthwhile even if those classes were not philosophy related.

I don't know if that's possible given the time it's been since I graduated.  It seems like it would just be against protocol to allow students to go back and re-take classes. 

 

What's actually keeping me from breaking the 3.0 mark is an incomplete that turned into an 'I-F' after I failed to actually produce the paper.  I can go back and write the paper though it's over three years late at this point and even if the professor were to accept it, I doubt the university would accept his petition to change the grade. 

[alopachuca]

I had some friends in Berkeley who were in a similar situation - "Similar" meaning they had low GPAs. But most of them were getting low grades because of personal responsibilities (marriage, work, health, etc.). Most of us did have some trouble with the pace each semester (I can't even imagine what the quarter system students have to deal with) but my personal story is that by my final semester I was able to get As and A-s without having to dedicate more time to my classes (In fact I was spending more hours at work and recovering from a surgery). The reason I bring that up is to agree with others - your main issue is that you need to show that you'll be able to keep up in grad school. 

[MattDest]

I had an awful undergrad GPA (somewhere around 2.9ish?), and got into a Leiter-mentioned terminal MA program with funding, and managed to get into a good PhD program (Arizona). The things that I learned: (1) the first two years matter little compared to the last two years, (2) philosophy grades matter more than overall grades, (3) if your letter writers can explain the pattern, do it, and (4) work on improving every other facet of your application. 

[MorganFreemanlives]

the problem with low gpa as opposed to  low GRE are multiple

 

1. if nothing else, a high gpa on a decent philo major shows proper dedication and  work ethic, which is a must on any ph.d program. while a high gpa can mean different things across the fields an universities, a low gpa implies a shortcoming, either due to unfortunate circumstances, or sloth but it can tarnish your image

 

2. GPA in principle is far more in your control than GRE scores. the gre is supposed to mimic the SAT in so far as it was meant to be a test you werent able to study for and inflate your score. of course today, we know this is bunk since ETS makes a business out of  our insecurities  with at least some prospect of success but just like in point 1, its less excusable.

 

3. some universities (UK, most of canada, Cornell and John Hopkins, prob most european universities) dont require GRE's   but all schools will use your Gpa so its not  like you can selectively hide a low GPA.

 

4. graduate schools when handling financial distribution to departments prefer to see numbers since they are less disputable. while GRE is also used, low GPA is more alarming, especially under 3.0 . look at it from their perspective. can we really trust this person with a class or TAship if they didnt even devote the time to get a good gpa in undergrad?

 

not saying its impossible, but you will really need to win the heart of a decent MA program with a killer writing sample, and even then, more realistic is a fighting chance at a relatively unknown but with prospect to improve MA program to redeem your record and perhaps needing some loans to pay it off.

[sacklunch]

Go back and get a second BA a different (and perhaps better) school. You may be limited on what loan money you qualify for, but it's worth checking into, especially if you qualify for instate tuition.

[aojfifjoaisjaiosdj]

This was not due to my inability to grasp the concepts being taught – on the contrary, I thoroughly understood the concepts but found it difficult to retain a steady pace of work.  This resulted in many missed classes, last-minute essay writing, and a few incompletes (which remained incompletes – hence the low GPA).  I’d say that my immaturity in college really hurt my potential.

 

Honestly, this sounds like a really bad excuse to me. I don't want to be mean, but graduate school may not be right for you.

[Guillaume]

Go back and get a second BA a different (and perhaps better) school. You may be limited on what loan money you qualify for, but it's worth checking into, especially if you qualify for instate tuition.

 

I would not support this course of action. The OP would be better advised to spend the money that would be spent on a second BA (as funding is not widely available) on a unfunded Masters program with in-state tuition. The benefit here is two-fold in that 1) even if the OP has to borrow money to pay for this additional education, which is generally not advisable in philosophy, the funding options for a Masters program v. a second BA will be more widely available AND cheaper; with some teaching experience the OP might even qualify as an RA and/or a TA in another department. 2) If the OP decides the he/she does not want to continue in Philosophy after continued study, an MA would give the OP the opportunity to teach more widely at the community college level (which is something he/she is already doing AND enjoys) where as the second BA would not provide any new credential.

 

the problem with low gpa as opposed to  low GRE are multiple

 

1. if nothing else, a high gpa on a decent philo major shows proper dedication and  work ethic, which is a must on any ph.d program. while a high gpa can mean different things across the fields an universities, a low gpa implies a shortcoming, either due to unfortunate circumstances, or sloth but it can tarnish your image

 

2. GPA in principle is far more in your control than GRE scores. the gre is supposed to mimic the SAT in so far as it was meant to be a test you werent able to study for and inflate your score. of course today, we know this is bunk since ETS makes a business out of  our insecurities  with at least some prospect of success but just like in point 1, its less excusable.

 

3. some universities (UK, most of canada, Cornell and John Hopkins, prob most european universities) dont require GRE's   but all schools will use your Gpa so its not  like you can selectively hide a low GPA.

 

4. graduate schools when handling financial distribution to departments prefer to see numbers since they are less disputable. while GRE is also used, low GPA is more alarming, especially under 3.0 . look at it from their perspective. can we really trust this person with a class or TAship if they didnt even devote the time to get a good gpa in undergrad?

 

not saying its impossible, but you will really need to win the heart of a decent MA program with a killer writing sample, and even then, more realistic is a fighting chance at a relatively unknown but with prospect to improve MA program to redeem your record and perhaps needing some loans to pay it off.

 

While I don't inherently disagree with anything in this post, the only thing I really agree with is the suggestion that the OP cast the MA net widely. OP, if you are genuinely interested in philosophy and believe that you have found measures to correct the problems you faced as an undergrad, AND have the support of faculty members, then I would continue your present course and apply. Cast your net widely, apply to some cheap unfunded programs, some lesser ranked/unranked funded programs, AND funded programs.

 

Also, for what it's worth, the gradcafe is filled with well meaning people who are all too willing to offer advice about various topics of which they have a varying degree, if any, expertise. Take it all with a grain of salt and learn from people who've actually already been there ie. MattDest. No doubt, someone once told him that he didn't stand a fighting chance with an 2.9X and he ended up at a good, funded MA program, and in a good PhD program.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Guillaume

[MattDest]

 

Also, for what it's worth, the gradcafe is filled with well meaning people who are all too willing to offer advice about various topics of which they have a varying degree, if any, expertise. Take it all with a grain of salt and learn from people who've actually already been there ie. MattDest. No doubt, someone once told him that he didn't stand a fighting chance with an 2.9X and he ended up at a good, funded MA program, and in a good PhD program.

 

This is very true! I would even take my own input with a huge grain of salt, because I am willing to bet our applications look significantly different in many other ways (you could have a better/worse writing sample, letters, test scores, etc.) which will impact the decision process. 

[sacklunch]

^ Your points are well received about the OP pursuing a second BA. Though as someone else mentioned, the possibility of getting into even a decent MA in philosophy with that GPA is not high. With that lackluster BA GPA and a low-ranked MA the opportunity of getting into a decent PhD program is even more unlikely. You're right that s(he) may be able to teach at a community college with the MA in hand. But even that is a pretty shitty opportunity given the fact that s(he) will most likely be part time and essentially making what a Walmart employee brings home

 

Another option is getting a BA and/or MA abroad. Places such as KU Leuven cost like 1k US a year and I believe many of the big name European schools can be funded through US loans.  

[Billy Goehring]

You're right that s(he) may be able to teach at a community college with the MA in hand. But even that is a pretty shitty opportunity given the fact that s(he) will most likely be part time and essentially making what a Walmart employee brings home

 

Just a quick note--community colleges can actually be pretty good gigs. It's not the institution that's shitty, it's the kind of position available--I know several people with reasonable workloads, decent pay, and job security at community colleges. As for working part-time and making Walmart wages--I'd hate to break it to you, but there's no guarantee that it won't happen to you. Working as an adjunct is not something that only happens to lowly MA graduates or people from low-ranked programs; it's become a reality. Up to 75% of all college professors are not tenure-track. 

 

Going to a better-ranked (notice, I didn't say "better") program can certainly help your chances of avoiding adjunct work, but you should go into this thing with the understanding that it's a very, very possible future--maybe not forever! People do eventually land good jobs. But don't trick yourself into thinking that a good school will guarantee you a good job right out of the gate. 

[alopachuca]

I think community college is a good topic to bring up. CognitiveAesthetics, you mentioned you want to work in academia, and if that means doing research and not just focusing on teaching, keep in mind that lower ranked MA programs do correlate (although not always) with lower ranked placement, which is going to have consequences if your focus is research. (Whether they correlate because the students in those programs have less impressive applications to PhD programs or because departments themselves will use the low rank as a telling point, I really don't know).

 

What I've gathered from friends that are full-time faculty at my old CC is that opportunities are looking a bit scarce there also. Some people will be hired for full-time positions but a lot of others stay as adjuncts for several years. 

[sacklunch]

Just a quick note--community colleges can actually be pretty good gigs. It's not the institution that's shitty, it's the kind of position available--I know several people with reasonable workloads, decent pay, and job security at community colleges. As for working part-time and making Walmart wages--I'd hate to break it to you, but there's no guarantee that it won't happen to you. Working as an adjunct is not something that only happens to lowly MA graduates or people from low-ranked programs; it's become a reality. Up to 75% of all college professors are not tenure-track. 

 

Going to a better-ranked (notice, I didn't say "better") program can certainly help your chances of avoiding adjunct work, but you should go into this thing with the understanding that it's a very, very possible future--maybe not forever! People do eventually land good jobs. But don't trick yourself into thinking that a good school will guarantee you a good job right out of the gate. 

 

 

Totally agree. Though if the top school graduates (PhD) are having a hard time getting jobs, I don't think I would want to try my luck with a low-ranked MA. At least the former (at a top school) guarantees a salary for the next 5-6 years (pay which is much higher than what many adjuncts are making!). If I end up working at Walmart after my (well-ranked) PhD, oh well. Maybe we can get lucky and stock shelves together!!