Theology MTS Question for Folks Who Know More than Me

[MidwesternGuy]

I was told to post this year, so I thought I would ask and see what you folks have to say.

 

This is my very first time posting and so I'm not sure exactly how this works, but I'll try my best. I'm looking to switch gears from a philosophy masters program at which I'm studying now, and am looking to get accepted at a theology MTS program. I have already done a fair amount of research, but I know very little of the field and so am just looking for advice from people who know it well. I don't have any intuition about what are safety schools and what are reach programs, and so I'm posting my information and am looking for the intuitions of those who have an idea. If you were applying with this, would you apply to this same range of programs, or would you not feel very comfortable?

 

I'll have a 3.88 GPA in a masters program in philosophy, but no publications. I will however have good letters from three professors in that program. I also have a 162 in verbal and a 151 in the quantitative (I may retake this).

 

Here are the programs I'm thinking of applying to: Yale, Duke, Marquette and Notre Dame.

 

Any thoughts folks? I'm not looking for predictions, just basic intuitions about whether that is a selection of programs that seems wise.

[cadences]

Hi MidwesternGuy,

 

I think you should be fine. An MTS is considered a basic theological master's within the field of theological education, so it's not That competitive in comparison to a top-tier MA that admits only, say, 5-10 students each year? (Although Notre Dame is the exception here.) Your stats are fine; having strong recommendations really helps, so you're good there too; as long as your writing sample and your SOP are strong, I think you have nothing to worry about, really.

 

Just a few thoughts:

 

1) Yale has two streams for their Master of Arts in Religion (they don't have an MTS): a comprehensive MAR and a concentrated MAR. The former is decidedly easier to get into, so the conventional wisdom is to apply for the former and, after you get in, transfer to the latter in your second year. Based on what I know from the various Yale students who have commented here in the past, if you have demonstrated that you have the academic prowess for the concetrated program, then switching mostly a formality.

 

2) You should be fine for Duke and Marquette. Duke will be more competitive, though, because everyone and their plumber applies to Duke. Oy.

 

3) Notre Dame is easily the most competitive among your four options, because they guarantee funding (at least full-tuition, I believe) for every admitted MTS student. So, statistically, you would be facing the same odds as though you were applying to a PhD.

 

Hope this helps some! Good luck!

Edited July 13, 2014 by cadences

[sacklunch]

Your GRE scores are well above average for an MTS. Don't waste your time retaking the test. Since you're an outsider it's important to realize that almost all the big name MTS/MAR degrees are fairly easy to get into as long as you have decent states. Because these programs are often theologically orientated they cater to students with no formal background. This both makes their admissions lighter and (for some) unfortunately bloats their curricula with a lot of 'gen ed' coursework. Though if you are indeed new to the field this may not be such a terrible thing. It's just important to know that at places like Yale Div you will be one of hundreds of students in your department. This is almost always not the case in philosophy MA programs (and most other humanities M* programs as the above poster already mentioned). I know nothing about Marquette, for instance, but I imagine they are smaller and thus might be more focused on their MA students. 

 

It all really depends on what you want to study. If you have an interest in say American Christianity, doing an MTS at a place like Yale would be a great idea. On the other hand if you want to study anything ancient, their MTS would likely end up being the first step in a long journey to a PhD program. Programs such as Yale's simply won't allow you to take enough courses to prepare you for a PhD without having any training beforehand. Moreover, their MAR concentrated program, while much better and more focused for its students, generally only accepts students with strong backgrounds in that particular field. For example, their biblical studies/ancient history related MAR concentrates will certainly require incoming students to have formal training in Greek and/or Latin (Hebrew, and so on). 

 

ND is always very competitive because they offer full tuition and a small stipend (I think like 5k a year?). You should still apply as it seems they often take students without formal training, especially those who have relevant coursework (i.e. you). If you are interested in anything ancient you should also apply to their MA in ECS (Early Christian Studies) as it will allow you to do a lot of language work necessary for doctoral apps (including their summer language courses, which are free for students, too). 

 

I would look at Harvard simply because they tend to offer more free money than the others (excluding ND). Their MTS also has fairly light admissions (most of the big name MTS degrees hover around 50% accept rate, I believe).

 

Possible issues with Duke Div's MTS: 1) They only accept like 20 MTS students a year, making admission more competitive, perhaps closer to somewhere like ND; 2) Because of no.1 alongside the fact that they accept tons of Mdiv students per yer, many having no formal training at all and accepted under much lighter admission standards, means that your classes will be filled with students not interested in academia; 3) the MTS is super bloated with requirements making it nearly impossible to get enough electives to pursue certain interests (i.e. languages); 4) they rarely give out full rides. I think like 2 or so MTS students get a full tuition scholarship a year and the others get like 25% (much lower than somewhere like Yale). You would be much better off applying to Duke's MA in Religious Studies because 1) they only accept 5-10 students a year, thus a lot of individual attention; 2) every student receives a minimum of 50% off tuition and now are giving several full rides per year; 3) students are only required to take one class as part of the degree and the rest can be pursued in RS, Philosophy, Classics, and so on, as long as it relates to the study of religion. Don't waste your time with Duke's MTS when the MA will prepare you for academia by allowing you the freedom to tailor your own program, save money, and get the attention you need. 

 

good luck. 

[cadences]

You would be much better off applying to Duke's MA in Religious Studies because 1) they only accept 5-10 students a year, thus a lot of individual attention; 2) every student receives a minimum of 50% off tuition and now are giving several full rides per year; 3) students are only required to take one class as part of the degree and the rest can be pursued in RS, Philosophy, Classics, and so on, as long as it relates to the study of religion. Don't waste your time with Duke's MTS when the MA will prepare you for academia by allowing you the freedom to tailor your own program, save money, and get the attention you need. 

 

good luck. 

 

This!

[theophany]

It all really depends on what you want to study. If you have an interest in say American Christianity, doing an MTS at a place like Yale would be a great idea. On the other hand if you want to study anything ancient, their MTS would likely end up being the first step in a long journey to a PhD program. Programs such as Yale's simply won't allow you to take enough courses to prepare you for a PhD without having any training beforehand. Moreover, their MAR concentrated program, while much better and more focused for its students, generally only accepts students with strong backgrounds in that particular field. For example, their biblical studies/ancient history related MAR concentrates will certainly require incoming students to have formal training in Greek and/or Latin (Hebrew, and so on). 

 

[...]

 

I would look at Harvard simply because they tend to offer more free money than the others (excluding ND). Their MTS also has fairly light admissions (most of the big name MTS degrees hover around 50% accept rate, I believe).

 

A few additional points re: Yale and Harvard from sacklunch's excellent post.

 

YDS: The MAR comprehensive is not designed for people wanting to go into PhD programs, but is a general degree for people who (typically) want to integrate the study of religion/religious literacy with something else. On the other hand, the MAR concentrate in theology does provide background enough for a PhD program. There are 4 required Bible survey courses, 8 theology courses (2 have to be historical), and 4 electives. If you were coming from something other than philosophy, I would say it might be a stretch, but the skills acquired studying philosophy are going to translate fairly easily into being able to do systematic theology, especially if you make sure to take introduction to systematics/introduction to theology (that course sequence is constantly being revised) your first semester. The requirements for Bible and Second Temple admits is much, much more stringent because of the total amount of language required. The theology area is not nearly so severe, and regularly admits folk with promise if not experience. Additionally, I'd suggest looking at the MARc in Philosophical Theology and make sure you're clear about which one you want to do.

 

HDS: The theology program at Harvard is currently in flux, and has been for several years. Put simply, Harvard does not do systematic theology anymore. Most of their course listings in theology are of the sort "theology of [particular group]" or emphasize comparative theology (with multiple religious traditions). This isn't a terrible thing, but with no background in theology may not provide some of the basic foundational work in theology that these contextual and comparative theologies rely on. They have identified this weakness, and their new junior faculty hire (who specializes in Calvin) will help make up for that. HDS also has a good deal more small requirements for its MTS students, for instance intermediate-reading proficiency in a research language, or the basic theory and method course, that YDS (for instance) does not.

 

Overall, I would encourage you to starting figuring out what sort of theology you want to do, because the MAR/MTS is going to shape your thought significantly (especially not having a ton of background). In the theology, ethics, and philosophy of religion areas, these schools can be very, very different in methodology, in scope, in how much individual belief matters. Somewhere like Duke or Princeton are going to be more confessional and perhaps more conservative (in perspective and in method), somewhere like Yale or Notre Dame is going to be heavy on the systematics side of things, somewhere like Harvard is going to be predominantly contextual, comparative, and critical. As sacklunch wrote, it all depends on what you want to study.

[MidwesternGuy]

Everyone here is so helpful! Thank you!

Edited July 14, 2014 by MidwesternGuy

[sacklunch]

^ Some excellent points made by theo. One that stands out is how 'confessional' the school/department is and to what extent you are/are not. If you are secular (as many of us are), doing an MTS at ND, Duke, and maybe Yale (MAR) would not be a great time. You can make it work (I know...), but you would feel much more at home at a place like HDS, Chicago, or (better yet) in a RS department. Though, as theo also rightly points out, your interests/methodologies/etc. will be greatly influenced by whatever sort of department you land in--secular and confessional alike! I'm just trying to say if you want to actually do 'theology' then a 'confessional' department is not such a bad thing! The reason I mentioned Duke's MA in RS is because it would allow you to ride both 'sides' (studying in both RS and Div) without the burden of having to check a bunch of boxes off for your degree requirements. 

[dr. t]

HDS: The theology program at Harvard is currently in flux, and has been for several years. Put simply, Harvard does not do systematic theology anymore. Most of their course listings in theology are of the sort "theology of [particular group]" or emphasize comparative theology (with multiple religious traditions). This isn't a terrible thing, but with no background in theology may not provide some of the basic foundational work in theology that these contextual and comparative theologies rely on. They have identified this weakness, and their new junior faculty hire (who specializes in Calvin) will help make up for that. HDS also has a good deal more small requirements for its MTS students, for instance intermediate-reading proficiency in a research language, or the basic theory and method course, that YDS (for instance) does not.

 

Everything about this is spot on, except there is no theory and method course for an MTS and your language proficiency can be in either a research or an ancient language. The degree requirements are: 8 courses within your area of focus, 4 outside of it, and language proficiency at an intermediate level in one language.

[Averroes MD]

Everything about this is spot on, except there is no theory and method course for an MTS and your language proficiency can be in either a research or an ancient language. The degree requirements are: 8 courses within your area of focus, 4 outside of it, and language proficiency at an intermediate level in one language.

For the MTS at HDS? We were just sent an email this week saying Theories and Methods is a requirement this fall. Hmmm

Edited July 16, 2014 by Averroes MD

[dr. t]

 IDK man ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

 

• • Two years of full-time study
  • Sixteen half courses (eight credits)
  • Six courses within the student’s declared area of focus taken for a letter grade with a grade of B- or higher received
  • Four courses significantly outside the student’s declared area of focus, three of which must be HDS courses
  • Six electives (may be within the student’s area of focus)
  • Intermediate level reading competency in a language that is relevant to the student’s area of focus determined by either course work or through examination
  • Residency requirement: students must complete four courses each in two of their first three consecutive terms
  • Thirteen of the sixteen required classes must be taken for a letter grade, three may be taken on a satisfactory/unsatisfactory basis
  • "B" average must be maintained throughout the program

   

   

Edited July 16, 2014 by telkanuru

[dr. t]

For the MTS at HDS? We were just sent an email this week saying Theories and Methods is a requirement this fall. Hmmm

 

If you check the pre-reg site, you'll see that it's required for MDivs but not MTS.

[theophany]

If you check the pre-reg site, you'll see that it's required for MDivs but not MTS.

Per the Registrar on a post today, as of the incoming class, it is required for both MTS and MDiv.

[dr. t]

Per the Registrar on a post today, as of the incoming class, it is required for both MTS and MDiv.

 

Oof. That's unfortunate.