advice for the entering first year students

[Quantum Buckyball]

(1) don't be cocky and lose the know-it-all attitude or you will get burned

(2) don't get too comfortable too early, especially when you are not a candidate yet

(3) know that you are being evaluated by senior students or post-docs constantly 

(4) don't be a moocher 

(5) don't ask for special treatment

(6) don't be a two-faced b in front of the PI 

(7) don't ask questions that can be easily answered via Google

(8) be independent, learn how to read user manuals 

(9) respect your colleagues' opinions

(10) constantly make new friends and meet people outside your field

 

[lyrehc]

I would add, don't ask for advice from 2nd and 3rd year students and then dismiss their answers.

If you're in a shared office be aware of when people are busy and let them work undisturbed.

[St Andrews Lynx]

...Gosh Buckyball, advice straight from the heart.

[Cookie]

(1) don't be cocky and lose the know-it-all attitude or you will get burned

(2) don't get too comfortable too early, especially when you are not a candidate yet

(3) know that you are being evaluated by senior students or post-docs constantly 

(4) don't be a moocher 

(5) don't ask for special treatment

(6) don't be a two-faced b in front of the PI 

(7) don't ask questions that can be easily answered via Google

(8) be independent, learn how to read user manuals 

(9) respect your colleagues' opinions

(10) constantly make new friends and meet people outside your field

 5, 7 and 8, especially! I abhor those new grad students who act like babies...

[SymmetryOfImperfection]

Lowly first years should learn to stop backtalking seniors. If a first year has an opinion that differs from the seniors, the first year should NOT try to reason with the senior. He/she shouldn't ask why either. He/she should take what the senior says as fact without talking back. Too many times, I've seen a lowly first year backtalk a senior, and its disgusting, because the first year is wrong most of the time. The only time a first year is right is when 500,000 first years backtalk a single senior. There is a reason why you are still just first years and they're seniors with numerous publications. Its because you think differently than the seniors. Stop thinking like a first year. Start thinking like a senior.

[Whisky-with-a-Y]

Hahahaha. Let's rename this forum: upperclassman complaints. Great advice all. Jeez

[bsharpe269]

I really hope that Symmetry of Imperfection is joking. We are talking about scientists in training who want to learn as much as they can... not toddlers. I actually think that having a discussion about the corrent method to use, instead of just blindly following more advanced students, is very helpful. The first year might have a different opinion on which they should use and this could spark a discussion on the positives and negatives of each and the first year (or both parties) can learn alot. All people come from different backgrounds so while a senoir student may know more about most areas, there are plenty of areas that first year students know more about due to their individual classwork and research experience.

 

Anyway, my biggest advice is to be friendly and find other students who are doing well in classes to study or review homework answers with. Review the material ahead of when it is discussed in class so that you can ask intelligent questions and answer questions that the professor asks the class. This is a really easy way to impress professors. Also, make a large effort to stay on campus for your 40ish hours a week for the first few semesters instead of just working from home. This will help you get to know professors and students and help make a good impression.

[Whisky-with-a-Y]

Now that was advice

[MaudDib]

 

Lowly first years should learn to stop backtalking seniors. If a first year has an opinion that differs from the seniors, the first year should NOT try to reason with the senior. He/she shouldn't ask why either. He/she should take what the senior says as fact without talking back. ...

 

Wow. Are you sure that you want to be a scientist?

 

The advice in the OP looks solid, though. I probably need to check my own cockiness. I'm sure I'll get knocked down a peg once I get into class on Monday.

Edited August 24, 2014 by MaudDib

[SymmetryOfImperfection]

Wow. Are you sure that you want to be a scientist?

 

The advice in the OP looks solid, though. I probably need to check my own cockiness. I'm sure I'll get knocked down a peg once I get into class on Monday.

 

I am joking but it is indeed what some ppl think.

[TakeruK]

To be honest, I felt that SymmetryOfImperfection's first post is a good satire of how some of the points in QuantumBuckyballs' list of advice sound to me. 

 

I agree with all of the points about being your own scientist, not depending on others, but wow, some of the other points seem very heavy handed.

 

For example, the junior students in my program are definitely not "being evaluated by senior students and postdocs constantly". This sounds like we have secret meetings with the PIs every year and comment on their progress! 

 

I would also not tell a new student to "not get too comfortable". Instead, I say "believe in your ability--after all, you didn't get here by accident!" especially after they experience some kind of failure. 

 

And while I would not like it if a junior student constantly asked me things that can be found via google, I don't actually mind answering occasional questions that have "easy" answers. Sometimes Google gives you the answer but doesn't help you develop the thought process to come up with solutions to similar problems on your own and it really helps to have someone guide you through it once or twice. And, I'd rather have junior students ask me a few "unnecessary" questions than have them be too afraid to ask me any questions at all.

 

Finally, I am not even sure what "don't ask for special treatment" even means. By definition, "special" treatment means there are some "special" circumstances that warrant this treatment. I think it would be a terrible environment if students are told to handle every problem on their own and not seek help (or "special treatment") to put them on an equal footing and give them a fair chance to succeed! For example, if you have children and need to pick them up from daycare at 4:30pm, you have every right to ask for "special treatment" to not have to TA from 4pm to 5pm etc. Or, if you have a learning disability, definitely ask for accomodations such as more time on timed tests through the school's accessibility center. Obviously, it is a bad idea to ask for special treatment when you don't need it, but I think it's really poor advice to make a blanket statement that no one should seek to be treated in a different way, ever.

[Quantum Buckyball]

@TakeruK

 

For example, the junior students in my program are definitely not "being evaluated by senior students and postdocs constantly". This sounds like we have secret meetings with the PIs every year and comment on their progress! 

 

There is a reason why this topic was posted under the chemistry forum. We don't have formal meetings but we do discuss this sort of stuff with the professor before the student is an official member of the lab. 

 

I would also not tell a new student to "not get too comfortable". Instead, I say "believe in your ability--after all, you didn't get here by accident!" especially after they experience some kind of failure. 

 

The trend we have observed was that students tend to work hard for the first 3 months and got accepted to the lab, and then all of the sudden it sort of just..stopped.

 

And while I would not like it if a junior student constantly asked me things that can be found via google, I don't actually mind answering occasional questions that have "easy" answers. Sometimes Google gives you the answer but doesn't help you develop the thought process to come up with solutions to similar problems on your own and it really helps to have someone guide you through it once or twice. And, I'd rather have junior students ask me a few "unnecessary" questions than have them be too afraid to ask me any questions at all.

 

This might be easier said than done. There are a good amount of students tend to "ask" for answers instead of "seek" for answers. 

 

Finally, I am not even sure what "don't ask for special treatment" even means. By definition, "special" treatment means there are some "special" circumstances that warrant this treatment. I think it would be a terrible environment if students are told to handle every problem on their own and not seek help (or "special treatment") to put them on an equal footing and give them a fair chance to succeed! For example, if you have children and need to pick them up from daycare at 4:30pm, you have every right to ask for "special treatment" to not have to TA from 4pm to 5pm etc. Or, if you have a learning disability, definitely ask for accomodations such as more time on timed tests through the school's accessibility center. Obviously, it is a bad idea to ask for special treatment when you don't need it, but I think it's really poor advice to make a blanket statement that no one should seek to be treated in a different way, ever.

 

there are always exceptions for disabled students. 

Edited August 24, 2014 by Quantum Buckyball

[St Andrews Lynx]

I agree that the PI will usually ask the senior grad students about how the rotation students got on when it comes to selecting new group members...

...but I'm not an asshole, so I don't judge (down) on new students "constantly". If the student is new to the group, then part of my responsibility as a senior student is to show them by example the correct group work ethic and to help them fit in. I would rather they asked me how to use a piece of equipment (even if it was "Google-able") than have them use the equipment wrongly and break it. After all, we were all newbies once. 

 

You know what? If you find yourself sneering, denigrating or bitching about the students in your group who are newer than you, it says more about your own high level of insecurity than the actual ability of those students. 

[Quantum Buckyball]

I agree that the PI will usually ask the senior grad students about how the rotation students got on when it comes to selecting new group members...

...but I'm not an asshole, so I don't judge (down) on new students "constantly". If the student is new to the group, then part of my responsibility as a senior student is to show them by example the correct group work ethic and to help them fit in. I would rather they asked me how to use a piece of equipment (even if it was "Google-able") than have them use the equipment wrongly and break it. After all, we were all newbies once. 

 

You know what? If you find yourself sneering, denigrating or bitching about the students in your group who are newer than you, it says more about your own high level of insecurity than the actual ability of those students. 

 

No, it was just a simple straight talk and a harsh reality check. 

[Eigen]

I have to say I wholeheartedly support every point in the original post. Overly harsh and frustrated? Sure. True? Absolutely. 

 

TakeruK- you may not be evaluating the junior students in your program, but the senior students in my program certainly are evaluating the new ones. As they pick rotations and try to join groups, you can bet that the PI's will ask their senior students if we think they will be an asset to the group. Similarly, there's a large chance some of the senior grad students will get talked to before first or second year fellowships get doled out, at least to get a feel. And even in a group? My boss asks me about how other students are progressing on a fairly regular basis, and I know he asks our post-doc(s) as well. We do more of the day-to-day managing of projects, and we can be in a better position to evaluate or help evaluate.

 

Does that mean we're spying and reporting and you should never honestly talk to senior grad students? No. 

 

But, for instance, telling all of the senior grad students at the mixer that you're only here doing grad school because it's easy and low-maintenance until your music career works out? Probably not the best move, and definitely something that will make it back to the faculty. 

 

As to getting too comfortable? When you're so comfortable that you forget that the people you are talking to are peers and colleagues, and you talk about how you're blowing off your research, before you've proven that you have chops and this is just a one-time thing? That's not good. 

 

Should you blindly follow the procedures that your lab has laid out, or that have been developed by senior students? No. Should you, without having read any of the suggested and relevant literature (and/or never having worked in the area before) start pointing out parts of the protocol you feel should be cut before you've even done it once? Probably not. 

 

If you come to me for advice or to learn a technique, and then spend the entire afternoon I set aside to teach you telling me that I'm doing it wrong, or that it won't work for you, chances are I'm not going to be thrilled about teaching you something else in the future. Do I care if you take what I teach you, decide it won't work for you, and don't use it or heavily modify it? Not at all. But if you then come back and tell me my protocol was bad when you didn't follow it and it didn't work because you thought you could cut things that I've found out you can't, I probably won't be thrilled. 

 

And special treatment doesn't require objectively special circumstances. Sometimes it just requires the individual thinking they have special circumstances. Like thinking they shouldn't have to take the required coursework because they're brilliant geniuses, and all of the rest of us were just plodding morons that needed guidance. Or thinking that they should be excused from the required seminar, rotations, etc. because they know better/don't need it. 

 

As to questions that can be easily found via google? I'm happy to answer, but my answer may consist of "have you googled that?"

 

Asking other people for help with simple stuff is fine. If you do it enough times, it comes across like you're not dong any background work of your own. If you consistently ask people to explain something to you when the first hit on google is a review article explaining exactly what you're asking... It comes across like you want other people to do your work for you. 

[SymmetryOfImperfection]

Synthetic chemistry is different from physical chemistry (physical chemistry here being defined as chemistry or materials research that is driven by physical instrumentation and computers, rather than wet lab reactions). Peer interactions are one of the differences.

[Eigen]

Just curious, why do you assume I'm synthetic? (Hint: I'm not). Also, it's not different. 

 

Theoretical chem? Sure, maybe, but mostly because there's a tendency for some groups to have no interaction between members. Experimental PChem and Materials Science? Those are fields I overlap predominately with, and the interactions really aren't that different than any other lab-based experimental scientific discipline. 

 

Also, the way you defined physical chemistry, it's pretty much every area of modern chemistry. You might be able to have some holdouts in the ultra-pure total synth labs, but pretty much every area of chemistry is largely driven by physical instrumentation and computers these days, some of them just also do wet-lab work. 

[TakeruK]

Thanks for the clarifications, Quantum Buckyball and Eigen. Other than the whole "evaluation" thing, your extended clarifications make sense and I think I probably just read the tone/mood wrong/not as intended (or interpreted the frustration as much more negative!)

 

And I guess the whole "evaluation" thing is a big difference between Chemistry fields with labs and a lot of students/supervision between senior/junior students than fields like my own. There really isn't a hierarchy in my field at the grad student level, I think. Good to learn something new

[Eigen]

Yeah, I know it's very different in some of the more independently structured fields even within the sciences- Ecology, Geology, etc. Things where people are working on their own project more independently, and not as a sub-project of some overarching 10 year scheme. 

[someth1ng]

Summary: don't be a dick.

 

But yeah, based on my experience (undergrad research), make sure you turn up when you're supposed to turn up.