Canada CGS Application (funding)

[Mandy P.]

Hello Everyone,

 

I'll be applying to Clinical Psych in Toronto for Fall 2015. My interests are mood disorders and trauma. Right now I'm studying very hard for the GRE (general and subject) and preparing my application. I'm about to start emailing my POIs choices.

 

Something that I find very relevant and that should be discussed is funding application, since for many programs being funded is directly connected with being admitted (at least the ones that I'll be trying). 

 

How are you dealing with the "Outline of proposed research"? Any tips? I'm still not sure about a specif subject and I'm getting a little anxious regarding that topic... 

 

Thanks,

 

 

 

[TakeruK]

Not sure if you mean NSERC CGS or SSHRC CGS. 

 

If it's NSERC, the CGS "outline of proposed research" does not have to be an actual project you will be working on, just a possibility. In both my -M and -D awards, I talked to a professor whose work I was interested in, told them about my interest in working with them and that I was applying for a NSERC CGS award and asked if they would spend some time with me discussing a research idea. That would be an approximately 30 minute conversation, then I went off and wrote up the 1 page proposal. In both cases, the prof gave me something like 6-8 papers to read and answered any questions I had. The prof that helped me with my -M award also volunteered to proof-read and gave feedback on my draft. 

 

I found this to be really helpful because this way, you are can tap into the professor's wisdom and experience in knowing what a well-defined grad student level research project is. For example, you want to make sure the material is both interesting to the field and the scope is small enough to be completed in 2 or 5 years! Make sure you are up front with the prof about the nature of the application and the non-binding agreement for both supervisor and student. Maybe I was lucky but it was easy to find people to help me with this part.

 

Again, the research you propose is non-binding (at least for the NSERC CGS-M in 2010 and CGS-D in 2012**; maybe the rules have changed). In both cases, I did not work on the project that I proposed, I did not work with the prof I proposed with (their name does not appear on the proposal though) and I did not attend the school of the prof I proposed to work with. 

 

(**Note: For the NSERC CGS-M, the proposal was completely non-binding; for the CGS-D, the rule was that you change your project at any time if you submit a new proposal)

 

So, check the rules that apply to you (i.e. which agency and which award) and if possible, remember that you are not bound to the research so you just have to pick a good project to write about, not necessarily one you will like. In my opinion, they evaluate the proposal to determine your suitability to perform research and your preparation for your field!

[lewin]

Back in my day (NSERC CGS-M, SSHRC Doctoral) the proposal were non-binding but the research conducted still needed to be within the mandate of your funding agency. So as a clinical person, for example, no switching from social science research to health research mid-SSHRC.

[TakeruK]

Back in my day (NSERC CGS-M, SSHRC Doctoral) the proposal were non-binding but the research conducted still needed to be within the mandate of your funding agency. So as a clinical person, for example, no switching from social science research to health research mid-SSHRC.

 

Right--the NSERC applications are divided into about 10 or so different committees that evaluate your proposal and since there is a quota on # of awards per committee, you have to stay within your committee. For me, that committee was "Physics and Astronomy", so that's quite a large range of topics!

[when]

I did more or less what TakeruK did. That is, I spoke to a post doc who I had worked with in undergrad and proposed a plan of study with their guidance. As my actual MA thesis would depend entirely on where I would be accepted, the research I proposed was a complete fantasy project (but of course both novel and realistic, just not something that I would do). The post doc proofed it for me and helped me out a lot with even the supporting background research. This was last year, so I doubt the rules have changed around binding/non-binding (nor does it make sense to change them for MA). In any case, I won the award.

 

Another thing is that you are unlikely to even find out whether you have won the award before you get an acceptance or rejection from your chosen schools, which means they don't know which students will come in with external funding either. Of course, they can look at your overall application and make general inferences on whether you're a likely or unlikely candidate for an award, but at this stage they just want to see that you've applied.

 

I'm also in Toronto and going to school here, so let me know if you have any specific questions about applying in the City that I could possibly help with.

[Mandy P.]

Hello Guys,

 

Thank you very much.  I mean NSERC, SSHRC and CIHR.

 

This is my first time doing that and my undergraduate studies were completed outside Canada, meaning that I'm not completely familiarize with the process nor I have connections with faculty here. I've been doing lots of research!

 

I read that it was non-binding but I wasn't sure about the implications of my outline in my admission. I feel much better knowing that it should be more like an evaluation of my research skills.

 

I'll start emailing potential supervisors very soon and at the same time I'll discuss that with them, in case they can give me some insights.

 

How much time before the deadline did you star? I was thinking about giving myself about a month (November, after the GRE, lol). What do you think?

[Mandy P.]

Thank you very much for the information!!! I guess they say that awards are connected with acceptance based on the stats that most of their students are funded.

 

I'll be moving from Montreal to Toronto in November and your help is very much appreciated!

 

 

I did more or less what TakeruK did. That is, I spoke to a post doc who I had worked with in undergrad and proposed a plan of study with their guidance. As my actual MA thesis would depend entirely on where I would be accepted, the research I proposed was a complete fantasy project (but of course both novel and realistic, just not something that I would do). The post doc proofed it for me and helped me out a lot with even the supporting background research. This was last year, so I doubt the rules have changed around binding/non-binding (nor does it make sense to change them for MA). In any case, I won the award.

 

Another thing is that you are unlikely to even find out whether you have won the award before you get an acceptance or rejection from your chosen schools, which means they don't know which students will come in with external funding either. Of course, they can look at your overall application and make general inferences on whether you're a likely or unlikely candidate for an award, but at this stage they just want to see that you've applied.

 

I'm also in Toronto and going to school here, so let me know if you have any specific questions about applying in the City that I could possibly help with.

[TakeruK]

Thank you very much for the information!!! I guess they say that awards are connected with acceptance based on the stats that most of their students are funded.

 

I'll be moving from Montreal to Toronto in November and your help is very much appreciated!

 

Well, this has recently changed with NSERC (not sure about the other 2 agencies). In previous years, the NSERC P/CGS-M is administered by NSERC itself, so while you would apply through your undergraduate school (if you are at a Canadian school), NSERC ultimately decides who gets the awards and the P/CGS-M award holders can choose where to use their award. However, in recent years, each school is now given a quota of CGS-M awards so you apply to the CGS-M award for each individual school. So, now, indeed, getting the award is very closely tied to acceptance because the school will only give the award to people they accept.

 

For the NSERC -D level awards though, you still apply through NSERC and NSERC makes the decision. The graduate school will not see your NSERC application and the only way they will know about it is that you would indicate that you have applied for NSERC funding when you apply to the Graduate School. So, the contents of the research outline has no impact on your admission at all. The decisions for the NSERC -D level awards are usually made at the end of March / first week of April. For most schools, this is well after they already made their initial decisions for admission, so it's also unlikely that there is a causal connection between the two. However, there is definitely a correlation because top students tend to get admitted and top students tend to get NSERC CGS-D awards. I would say I would be very surprised to hear about someone who was good enough to get a NSERC CGS-D but did not get into any Canadian grad school. In general, it's far harder to get a CGS-D than admission. 

 

Oh and for timing to write the research proposal--I would say approximately 12-15 hours on it, including the time to read all the background papers, write and make edits. I did it all in about 2 weeks (I applied back when you applied directly to NSERC for both -M and -D awards so the deadlines were around mid September to mid October). There are a lot of other things you have to write for the NSERC application too though, and you have to get LORs. Overall, I would say it's about 40-50 hours of work (i.e. one full work week) for me when I applied to these awards. It's time well spent though, since the potential value of the award is $105,000 over 3 years (for the NSERC CGS-D). 

Edited September 16, 2014 by TakeruK

[lewin]

Well, this has recently changed with NSERC (not sure about the other 2 agencies). In previous years, the NSERC P/CGS-M is administered by NSERC itself, so while you would apply through your undergraduate school (if you are at a Canadian school), NSERC ultimately decides who gets the awards and the P/CGS-M award holders can choose where to use their award. However, in recent years, each school is now given a quota of CGS-M awards so you apply to the CGS-M award for each individual school. So, now, indeed, getting the award is very closely tied to acceptance because the school will only give the award to people they accept.

 

 

This is a tangent, but I think this is a stupid trend and bad for students. The Ontario Graduate Scholarship is the same way now. Instead of an NSERC/OGS being a feather in a potential applicant's cap that can open doors, it's just another recruiting tool for universities. IMO, they should come up with their own recruiting money and leave the scholarships alone.

[TakeruK]

This is a tangent, but I think this is a stupid trend and bad for students. The Ontario Graduate Scholarship is the same way now. Instead of an NSERC/OGS being a feather in a potential applicant's cap that can open doors, it's just another recruiting tool for universities. IMO, they should come up with their own recruiting money and leave the scholarships alone.

 

I agree with you completely. I feel fortunate to be able to go through this the "old" way. In addition, in the "old way", a lot of schools offered extra $$ for students who come in with tri-agency funding (Queen's gave me an extra $5k the first year for bringing in this money). Now, I don't imagine schools are going to be as generous when it's their own pot of money that they are granting with NSERC CGS-Ms. However, it might still happen (I'm not at a Canadian school now so I don't know how it might work) since the CGS-M money comes from a University-wide fund while these "bonuses" came from a departmental fund. So, although it's not as much of a "feather in a cap", it still can be viewed that way by some departments, since the applicant will still be bringing in some money that's external to the department. Of course, it's still possible that the school might reduce the department's allocation somewhere else if they provide CGS-M funding though!

[when]

Well, this has recently changed with NSERC (not sure about the other 2 agencies). In previous years, the NSERC P/CGS-M is administered by NSERC itself, so while you would apply through your undergraduate school (if you are at a Canadian school), NSERC ultimately decides who gets the awards and the P/CGS-M award holders can choose where to use their award. However, in recent years, each school is now given a quota of CGS-M awards so you apply to the CGS-M award for each individual school. So, now, indeed, getting the award is very closely tied to acceptance because the school will only give the award to people they accept.

 

For the NSERC -D level awards though, you still apply through NSERC and NSERC makes the decision. The graduate school will not see your NSERC application and the only way they will know about it is that you would indicate that you have applied for NSERC funding when you apply to the Graduate School. So, the contents of the research outline has no impact on your admission at all. The decisions for the NSERC -D level awards are usually made at the end of March / first week of April. For most schools, this is well after they already made their initial decisions for admission, so it's also unlikely that there is a causal connection between the two. However, there is definitely a correlation because top students tend to get admitted and top students tend to get NSERC CGS-D awards. I would say I would be very surprised to hear about someone who was good enough to get a NSERC CGS-D but did not get into any Canadian grad school. In general, it's far harder to get a CGS-D than admission. 

 

Oh and for timing to write the research proposal--I would say approximately 12-15 hours on it, including the time to read all the background papers, write and make edits. I did it all in about 2 weeks (I applied back when you applied directly to NSERC for both -M and -D awards so the deadlines were around mid September to mid October). There are a lot of other things you have to write for the NSERC application too though, and you have to get LORs. Overall, I would say it's about 40-50 hours of work (i.e. one full work week) for me when I applied to these awards. It's time well spent though, since the potential value of the award is $105,000 over 3 years (for the NSERC CGS-D). 

 

I actually also assumed that because the tri-council awards are decided on in-house since last year, they would very much be aware of the status of my funding application when making considering making me an offer, but the program administrator offered me a place and asked me to let her know as soon as possible if I found out that I had won SSHRC (that is also assessed in-house). My letter of offer also stipulated what additional funding I would get if I won such-and-such funding and if I didn't (for the record, the SSHRC funding was topped up very generously). When I expressed my surprise to several faculty members about them not knowing the result of my SSHRC decision before I did, they said that the committee is a separate entity. Whether all this is true, I have no idea. But certainly they provide a decent amount of departmental funding for students with and without external funding.

[lewin]

I agree with you completely. I feel fortunate to be able to go through this the "old" way. In addition, in the "old way", a lot of schools offered extra $$ for students who come in with tri-agency funding (Queen's gave me an extra $5k the first year for bringing in this money). Now, I don't imagine schools are going to be as generous when it's their own pot of money that they are granting with NSERC CGS-Ms. 

 

Ditto, my program gave a $10,000 top up annually to anybody with external funding and, maybe more importantly, a release from 75% of your TA duties. I'm far enough out of the program that I don't know what they do now.

[Mandy P.]

Hello guys,

 

Would you mind telling a bit of how it was coming up with an outline of proposed research? As I mentioned before, my undergraduate studies were completed outside Canada and I don't have faculty connections here. I am working on that right now, but to be honest I am a bit preoccupied. I don't know if my subject is relevant enough nor how to develop it very well in terms of methodology.  

[lewin]

^^ I had written a paper on the topic for a seminar so was familiar with the general area, came up with a study idea that extended what had been done previously based on what I'd read. I based my methods off of that previous work but adapted it to my new research question. I also asked four different profs that I knew to read it at various points to get lots of feedback and revise it so it was perfect. Having experienced eyes reading your statement is very important -- can you ask profs you know back in your home country?

[Mandy P.]

Thank you. Unfortunately, no I am 100% by myself.

[TakeruK]

Do you have any connections at all with professors at a Canadian school? I'm not sure if I said it clearly in my original post way up in this thread, but the professors that helped me with the research statement were not professors at my current school. Instead, I reached out to professors at schools I wanted to apply to and asked for their help. It's a win-win situation since you'll get guidance and if you win and decide to work for this prof, the CGS will reduce how much they need to pay for you. 

 

Otherwise, I would say to make sure you write it in general terms and define all jargon. Include references to other work. In particular, you should clearly outline the problem (give references), give motivation for why it should be solved (give references), describe your method (refer to previous studies that show this method's success) and discuss what your project will accomplish. You only have one page so you have to strike a fine balance between providing enough details to convince the reader what you do will work vs. fitting everything in just one page. In my experience, my first drafts (where I write everything I can think of) are generally about 2 pages long, and then I think of ways to write more concisely or decide what to remove to bring it back to 1 page.

[Mandy P.]

Thank you! Yes, I've been emailing professors. I am trying to establish take kind of connection, but until now I don't have it. 

[Mandy P.]

Hello guys,

 

Thanks for your help. I was able to finalize my outline.

 

Now, I am following the instructions to ask for the PIN Number (CIHR). Since my field of research is health (clinical) it is require. The thing is... they do not mention why it is needed.

 

I am at the "ResearchNet" portal registering for the pin number and they ask for a "Primary Affiliation" (defined as "The main location of the Institution or Organization where your research project or training will take place".), which I don't have. I am not enrolled yet and I am applying for different programs. Do you know how does it work? 

 

I am so worried! I hope to be able to apply normally... otherwise all my effort making the outline was for nothing

 

I am applying for Master's programs in Clinical Psychology.

 

Thanks,

[Piagetsky]

Mandy P, I'm confused about something.  Feel free to PM me, but I thought that most of those Canadian awards you mentioned (with the exception of OGS) are for citizens and permanent residents only.  But you mentioned your home country.   Did you already move to Canada? I'm in the States but would sell a kidney to be able to go to school in Canada, so I'm grasping at anything I see.  Could you tell me about that?

[TakeruK]

 

Hello guys,

 

Thanks for your help. I was able to finalize my outline.

 

Now, I am following the instructions to ask for the PIN Number (CIHR). Since my field of research is health (clinical) it is require. The thing is... they do not mention why it is needed.

 

I am at the "ResearchNet" portal registering for the pin number and they ask for a "Primary Affiliation" (defined as "The main location of the Institution or Organization where your research project or training will take place".), which I don't have. I am not enrolled yet and I am applying for different programs. Do you know how does it work? 

 

I am so worried! I hope to be able to apply normally... otherwise all my effort making the outline was for nothing

 

I am applying for Master's programs in Clinical Psychology.

 

Thanks,

 

 

I don't have experience with CIHR. I know that for NSERC, this question was worded a little bit differently. They simply asked for what school I would like to take my award at so I just picked one of the possible schools. Again, nothing in the NSERC award is binding (other than staying in the same field) so I didn't worry too much about the answers to questions like "What will you do your research on" or "Who will you work with" or "Where will you take your award?"

 

Mandy P, I'm confused about something.  Feel free to PM me, but I thought that most of those Canadian awards you mentioned (with the exception of OGS) are for citizens and permanent residents only.  But you mentioned your home country.   Did you already move to Canada? I'm in the States but would sell a kidney to be able to go to school in Canada, so I'm grasping at anything I see.  Could you tell me about that?

 

You are correct. But the way I read it, Mandy P said they did their undergraduate studies outside of Canada and did not mention anything about another "home country". Another poster, lewin, referred to a "home country" but I think that was meant to be in reference to the country where Mandy P did their undergraduate degree.

 

In this case, Mandy P would be eligible for a NSERC/SSHRC/CIHR award for a Canadian school only (you are only allowed to take the award to another country if you already have a degree from a Canadian school). The only time Mandy P mentioned moving was from Montreal to Toronto, which are both Canadian cities!

 

Finally, if you are interested in school in Canada, you can and should still apply! You don't need an award to be admitted. I would even say that it's easier for an American to attend a Canadian school than a Canadian to attend an American school.

[Piagetsky]

I don't have experience with CIHR. I know that for NSERC, this question was worded a little bit differently. They simply asked for what school I would like to take my award at so I just picked one of the possible schools. Again, nothing in the NSERC award is binding (other than staying in the same field) so I didn't worry too much about the answers to questions like "What will you do your research on" or "Who will you work with" or "Where will you take your award?"

 

 

You are correct. But the way I read it, Mandy P said they did their undergraduate studies outside of Canada and did not mention anything about another "home country". Another poster, lewin, referred to a "home country" but I think that was meant to be in reference to the country where Mandy P did their undergraduate degree.

 

In this case, Mandy P would be eligible for a NSERC/SSHRC/CIHR award for a Canadian school only (you are only allowed to take the award to another country if you already have a degree from a Canadian school). The only time Mandy P mentioned moving was from Montreal to Toronto, which are both Canadian cities!

 

Finally, if you are interested in school in Canada, you can and should still apply! You don't need an award to be admitted. I would even say that it's easier for an American to attend a Canadian school than a Canadian to attend an American school.

You quite literally made my day  . I have been under the impression that it's a long shot in the first place (child clinical psych) made even longer by the fact I plan to apply as an international student.  Thanks for the clarification!!

[Mandy P.]

Hello, I am a permanent resident, thus I am allowed to apply for an award. I doesn't matter where I did my undergrad studies, but my status at the country (you need to be a citizen or perm. resident).

 

Also, I think there is an award for international students (I recall something from the presentation they did). Please refer to: http://www.nserc-crsng.gc.ca/Students-Etudiants/PG-CS/VanierCGS-VanierBESC_eng.asp

 

Mandy P, I'm confused about something.  Feel free to PM me, but I thought that most of those Canadian awards you mentioned (with the exception of OGS) are for citizens and permanent residents only.  But you mentioned your home country.   Did you already move to Canada? I'm in the States but would sell a kidney to be able to go to school in Canada, so I'm grasping at anything I see.  Could you tell me about that?

 

Oh that is nice to know! Anyways, I will call them on Monday to make sure. It doesn't make any sense to let you apply to different schools and make you choose one before hand.

 

Thanks!!!!!!

 

I don't have experience with CIHR. I know that for NSERC, this question was worded a little bit differently. They simply asked for what school I would like to take my award at so I just picked one of the possible schools. Again, nothing in the NSERC award is binding (other than staying in the same field) so I didn't worry too much about the answers to questions like "What will you do your research on" or "Who will you work with" or "Where will you take your award?"

 

 

You are correct. But the way I read it, Mandy P said they did their undergraduate studies outside of Canada and did not mention anything about another "home country". Another poster, lewin, referred to a "home country" but I think that was meant to be in reference to the country where Mandy P did their undergraduate degree.

 

In this case, Mandy P would be eligible for a NSERC/SSHRC/CIHR award for a Canadian school only (you are only allowed to take the award to another country if you already have a degree from a Canadian school). The only time Mandy P mentioned moving was from Montreal to Toronto, which are both Canadian cities!
 

Finally, if you are interested in school in Canada, you can and should still apply! You don't need an award to be admitted. I would even say that it's easier for an American to attend a Canadian school than a Canadian to attend an American school.

[Mandy P.]

Hey! Just an update. I was told to write: Not applicable.

[CarletonU]

Question: Does anyone know what happens if you don't complete your research project for a CGS-M? 

[TakeruK]

Question: Does anyone know what happens if you don't complete your research project for a CGS-M? 

 

Nothing. I did not do any work proposed in my CGS-M application (the research proposal is non-binding). However, there may be some consequences if you do not complete your entire year of the CGS-M (i.e. you decide to leave your program after one semester) -- I think you will have to repay any money paid in advance to you for the time you were not a student. Check your Awards Holder Guide to be sure.