Switching PhD programs?

[anonconf]

So I'm a first year grad student in astronomy, but I've lately been considering what the possibilities of a switch to physics are. The department at my university is a joint Physics & Astronomy Department, but astronomy does have its own separate program with its own selection committee to admit astronomy graduate students. I've occasionally heard stories from others in which switches like this have happened, though I don't know how it works or how one would go about it.

 

I thought that I'd come float this idea on these forums to see what people's opinions are. Do people think a switch from astronomy to physics would be possible, given that it's my first year? How would I float the idea to the department, or who would I even approach with this idea? Could the fact that it's a joint department work to my advantage (it'd be a net zero for the department financially given that I'll still be in the same department). Maybe if I could just prove myself competent enough by passing the physics comperehensive exams? I'm not even sure if it could be potentially risky to float the idea with professors or potential advisors... If it turns out that a switch is not possible, then would it be awkward to stay in astronomy with many of the other professors/students knowing that I'd prefer being in a different program?

 

I'd appreciate any advice, comments, anecdotes/stories relating to this kind of thing. Thanks very much.

[iphi]

Could you switch after your Master's? If you are all in the same department, can you do some research with someone in Physics now to help make the idea of a transition easier for everyone?

[peachypie]

I am not sure about how your program is set up, but in my field there are other separate programs that are similar in scope to some of the work in my program's field.  In our situation we are allowed to rotate in labs (or with PIs) who are not in the program but could possibly join the program.  Any possibility you could try to pick an advisor in the physics department?  Sometimes the profs are open to a collaboration with a prof in another program as well and let you take your focus of research there too.  Again it depends on how your program and departments are set up but if it that closely related my guess is you'd be able to select an advisor and either have them join the Astronomy program, if necessary go for a collaboration (co-advisors maybe) in each? 

[anonconf]

Thanks for the replies.

 

They say that astronomy grad students are allowed to choose a physics professor as an advisor to work with, and vice versa (physics students can work with astro professors). So if I wanted to I could choose a physics advisor to work under and still be a part of the astronomy program (though I'm assuming they would expect my work to still be related to astronomy). I am guessing that doing this could help my case in officially making a switch. But what if I don't exactly want to do anything very related to astronomy/astrophysics? Also, if I do want to go through with this, I want officially decide on it as soon as possible so that I can begin preparing for the comprehensive exam by taking the appropriate classes.

Edited October 24, 2014 by anonconf

[ProfLorax]

 I've occasionally heard stories from others in which switches like this have happened, though I don't know how it works or how one would go about it.

In your department? If so, I'd follow up and find these students who have made the switch. Ask how they went about it and proceed from there. Good luck!

[juilletmercredi]

Why do you want to switch?  If you're in the same department and you can have physics advisor, and you can presumably have physics advisors on your committee, what is the purpose of switching to the physics program?  Is it because you are no longer interested in astronomical/astrophysical research?

 

I think that if it's because you're no longer interested in astronomy, then you need to handle this within your department by discussing with your current advisor.  If you don't have an advisor yet, talk to your Director of Graduate Studies.  Explain your reasoning and what area you do want to work in, and maybe even identify some potential advisors in physics.  Depending on your department you might want to discuss with the potential advisors first to see if any of them are on board and willing to supervise you (but it shouldn't be an issue since it sounds like your funding is departmental).

[anonconf]

Why do you want to switch?  If you're in the same department and you can have physics advisor, and you can presumably have physics advisors on your committee, what is the purpose of switching to the physics program?  Is it because you are no longer interested in astronomical/astrophysical research?

 

I think that if it's because you're no longer interested in astronomy, then you need to handle this within your department by discussing with your current advisor.  If you don't have an advisor yet, talk to your Director of Graduate Studies.  Explain your reasoning and what area you do want to work in, and maybe even identify some potential advisors in physics.  Depending on your department you might want to discuss with the potential advisors first to see if any of them are on board and willing to supervise you (but it shouldn't be an issue since it sounds like your funding is departmental).

 

 

I'd like to switch because I'd be more interested in certain area of physics over astronomy. Plus, even if I decide to do something related to astrophysics, it would be something theoretical, and the types of astrophysical research that I'd be doing would require, in my opinion, a better physics background than the astronomy curriculum provides.

 

Is this Director of Graduate Studies that I would talk to typically someone outside of the department? Or is this usually someone within the department?

 

By the way, to answer proflorax's question, some of the stories that I've heard of people switching PhD programs have come from this university. I've heard just a couple stories of people coming in from outside departments (always from a hard science deptartment), though I have never met these people, and don't know details of how they went about it. I guess I could try to seek them out and see how they did it. But I figure, if they were able to do it, then they would probably be even more willing for me to switch given that I'm coming from within the same dept.

[juilletmercredi]

The Director of Graduate Studies (DGS) is usually a designated faculty member in your department.  The most recent student handbook should list who that person is; if it does not, then I would ask any faculty member in your department.  They should know.

 

 

I'd like to switch because I'd be more interested in certain area of physics over astronomy. Plus, even if I decide to do something related to astrophysics, it would be something theoretical, and the types of astrophysical research that I'd be doing would require, in my opinion, a better physics background than the astronomy curriculum provides.

 

I think these are two distinct problems (not wanting to do astronomy research at all vs. needing more physics to do the astrophysical research you want to do) and before you go about trying to switch, you need to figure out which one you have.

 

Every PhD program is different, but most programs have quite a bit of flexibility for students to build a program that is tailored towards their needs.  If you are an astronomer in a joint astronomy and physics department who plans to do astrophysical research, you could most likely stay in the astronomy program and work with an advisor to build a coursework and exam curriculum that would help you acquire the physics background necessary to do the research you want to do.  In most cases, that would not involve switching - just taking more physics classes than are required by the curriculum.  I have seen people do that even across departments - people in my public health department who took a lot of biostatistics and epidemiology courses; people in my psychology department who took business courses or political science courses or biological courses to brand themselves as multidisciplinary and/or give them the background to do research in the area they wanted (behavioral economics or political behavior or neuroscience).  It would be even easier to do this within departments, I would think, unless your program is much more rigid than the average PhD program.

 

Moreover, I think that it's very common for people's research interests to develop and blossom over the course of the program - sometimes even bleeding into related disciplines - but you don't necessarily need to switch programs to explore them.  It could be as simple as building collaborations with someone already in your department or school.  For example, my PhD program was a social/behavioral sciences in public health PhD program, but let's say that a student in my program decided she was very interested in social epidemiology.  The two fields are pretty closely related.  Transitioning to the epidemiology department would be a lot of work, and might require starting over.  But a PhD student in my department could easily take a lot of epidemiology classes, work with an epidemiologist on a more epidemiological dissertation, and then do a postdoc in epidemiology.  The skills and background are more important than the name of the degree in the majority of cases.  Likewise, a developmental psychologist might decide that her interests are really in cognitive development and she needs a broader cognition background to do her research, but she could acquire a secondary mentor in the cognitive subfield of her department, take some classes on cognition, and do a postdoc in cognition.  This would probably be a lot easier than switching over.

 

However, if you want a PhD in physics for other reasons, you may want to switch.  Reasons like

• You don't want to do any research related to astronomy, or your research is only tangentially related to astronomy.  Thus switching to the physics program would allow you to avoid taking needless astronomy courses.
• You know that you want to teach in a regular physics department, and you're worried about employability.  (In some fields, interdisciplinary or subfield degrees are less employable.  So for example, in my field, a psychology PhD can teach in a psychology department or a communications department, if they did comms research.  But a communications PhD couldn't easily get a job in psychology department.  However, I do know of statistics and biostatistics PhDs in math departments, epidemiologists in biology departments, and a psychologist in a biology department - so this is not a hard and fast rule, and I imagine that astronomy and physics are related enough that an astronomer could find a place in a physics department.  Still, it's something to consider.)
• Your program is really rigid, and it's easier to switch PhDs than it is to build a flexible program within your existing PhD that includes all of the coursework you need.
• You want to work with Professor X but he will only take you if you are in the physics PhD program.

There are probably some others I am not thinking of right this moment.

 

Basically, I think that a conversation with a trusted faculty member and/or the DGS will help you figure this out.  The first step is to personally examine your own reasons for switching.  Writing them down may help you work them out more fully.  After you personally understand why you want to switch, then I would talk to your current advisor and the DGS (or, if you don't have an advisor, just the DGS).  Explain your issue, and ask for their advice.  Ask them if you even need to switch to do that or if there is something that you could work out to tailor your program while staying put.  The DGS's job is to direct the graduate program(s) in your department and advise students on matters such as these, so they should give you some good feedback on what your next steps should be.  Also, if you need to switch, they can help you initiate the process.

Edited October 28, 2014 by juilletmercredi

[ProfLorax]

By the way, to answer proflorax's question, some of the stories that I've heard of people switching PhD programs have come from this university. I've heard just a couple stories of people coming in from outside departments (always from a hard science deptartment), though I have never met these people, and don't know details of how they went about it. I guess I could try to seek them out and see how they did it. But I figure, if they were able to do it, then they would probably be even more willing for me to switch given that I'm coming from within the same dept.

Yes, try to seek them out! They may point out obstacles that are specific to your department or let you know the professors who will be most helpful (and least). We can't be nearly as helpful about the logistics, benefits, and challenges of switching from one department to another as the people in your program who actually did it. 

[anonconf]

Thank you very much for the detailed and thought-out response jullietmercredi! It's really helpful. What you say makes perfect sense, and you've given me some things to think about, like the precise reasons why a switch may or may not be beneficial for me.

 

And I'll definitely seek them out proflorax!