Low Ranked Masters to High Ranked PhD?

[emily.rose]

Hi everyone! I've had a very hard time trying to decide what to do here...

 

I know that location should be a very small factor, but it also seems like most the information on here is directed towards PhD programs. I have become very settled where I am and would like to take the time to get a Master's before going to do a PhD. However, there's only one university where I live and it's pretty low ranked...I went to a high ranked undergrad, so I'm wondering if going to this school for my Master's will set me back when I eventually want to apply to a PhD program.

 

From what I've read, a lot of you seem to have gone through a Master's program before deciding to apply for your PhD. Do you have any sort of opinion/advice on this? I'm willing to travel the world for my PhD, but for 2 years of a Master's, it just sounds unsettling to jump somewhere new when I will eventually be moving again (possibly very far) for a PhD.

[Dr. Old Bill]

This doesn't answer your question at all, but out of curiosity -- why do you want to get a Master's before you go for your Ph.D.? Are you definitely decided on going for your Ph.D. at some point, or are you planning on using the Master's to test the waters, so to speak?

 

I'm guessing, based on your location, that you'd be thinking of George Mason?

[emily.rose]

I'm fairly certain I want to do the PhD, but it's a big commitment so I want to be sure. Also I don't feel entirely prepared because up until my senior year, I had wanted to go to law school. I'd like to get my research interests solidified and also bulk up on the theory background I feel like I'm missing. 

 

And I've actually moved to Norfolk, so it would be ODU...

[lyonessrampant]

As long as the MA is funded, you probably won't have any more of a problem getting into top-ranked schools than anyone else with an MA.  Many of the top schools tend to prefer direct-from-BA admits, but it is definitely true that a funded MA is always going to be a stronger vote in your favor than an unfunded MA, even if that unfunded MA comes from a school whose Ph.D. program ranks highly (note the difference between Ph.D. and MA because there isn't really a ranking system available of MAs).

[ProfLorax]

I did an unranked, unfunded MA and did just fine as a PhD applicant. Similarly, I didn't think it was worth moving across the country for an MA, so I chose the program that was close by. I also think funded MA's are great, but going to a university close to home may actually be cheaper than relocating for a funded MA. 

 

Use your time as an MA student to make strong connections with faculty, write excellent seminar papers that could be writing samples, discover your research interests, and get involved with your department and field. If you do those things, you'll be fine once/if you decide to apply to PhD programs afterwards. 

[mikers86]

My MA was at Middle of Road State University, which I chose over Well-Ranked Private University because it was where I had finished my BA (by the time I finished I had LOR from people I knew for 5 years), I received in-state tuition (though I did get at TAship the 2nd year), and location location location. Like proflorax said, make strong connections, have faculty help you develop your writing sample, and just make use of your time in that program. You can overcome almost anything - GRE scores, unranked/low ranked BA or MA institution - if you have a solid writing sample.

 

I would personally look at what sort of courses the program has historically offered to see if those remotely match your interests or seem like they would be beneficial to you in any way. And I mean any way - you can make most courses work for you. But if you're a 20c American person and they predominantly do pre-1800 British, then perhaps it's not the right way to go.

[TakeruK]

I'm not in your field, but your thread title and opening post really resonated with me. You can see the names of my schools in my signature (I try not to write it in posts since I can always change my signature in the future if I wanted to hide the information). Here are the parts of my experience that are the same as you:

 

1. High ranked undergrad (usually ranks in the 30s in the Times Higher Education University rankings; probably in the 20s if considering US/Canada schools only)

2. Low ranked MSc program (does not generally appear in worldwide ranking lists; not even ones that count down to 200)

3. Wanted to do a 2 year Masters before committing to a 5 year PhD.

4. Wanted to (and got into!) a top ranked PhD program (usually ranks between 1st and 3rd, depending on which list)

 

One big difference is that my BSc/MSc programs were in Canada (I'm in the US for PhD) where it's normal/required for people to do the 2 year Masters first, and then (either stay or move) do their PhD (3-4 years). The main purpose of a Masters program in Canada is to 1) make sure the student wants to do research at the PhD level and 2) make sure the student is qualified to do research at the PhD level.

 

I think another thing that really helped me was that although the school I went to wasn't well ranked at all in my field, the person I worked with was relatively well known and I also worked with one other well known external collaborator. My advisor also knew about my goals and was incredibly supportive. He sent me on a lot of conferences and trips so that I can present my research to as many people as possible and get my name better known. I also worked closely with him and my BSc advisor to talk to professors at schools I wanted to go to for my PhD and they helped put me in touch with a couple of people. 

 

So, the answer to your main question is yes, it's totally doable. It sounds like others on this forum in your field have been successful too. For me, I think things might have gone a lot differently for me if I didn't make the effort to reach out to those who would help me. 

[queennight]

So, the answer to your main question is yes, it's totally doable. It sounds like others on this forum in your field have been successful too. For me, I think things might have gone a lot differently for me if I didn't make the effort to reach out to those who would help me. 

 

How did you find the process of applying as an international student? I know you're in a different area, but do you think there were extra obstacles to jump over in order to be competitive in the States? (I'm applying as a Canadian, so I'm curious to hear if you have any brief comments on that.) Also - was funding an issue?

[emily.rose]

You guys are great, thanks for sharing your experiences! I feel like much of this board is skewed towards doctorate programs, so it's good to get a different perspective from people who have been there!

[TakeruK]

How did you find the process of applying as an international student? I know you're in a different area, but do you think there were extra obstacles to jump over in order to be competitive in the States? (I'm applying as a Canadian, so I'm curious to hear if you have any brief comments on that.) Also - was funding an issue?

 

It was definitely challenging for me because I had no idea how grad school even worked in 2009 when I applied to Canadian MSc programs so in 2011, when I thought I had it figured out, I had to learn how applying to the US was different! Luckily, as I mentioned above, I had some great professors who did grad school (or even worked for a time) in the US and they gave me their feedback. I felt their mentorship really made a difference in my success rate.

 

The extra things I struggled with were:

 

1) Writing an SOP: Canadian physics programs don't usually require an essay like the SOP (for MSc programs, they asked us to provide paragraph-length answers to 5 specific questions that are similar to SOP prompts but I had not written a 1-2 page document about myself before (I had written plenty of research proposals for things like NSERC or OGS before, but not about myself!) This is probably not a problem for those in this sub-forum

 

2) Taking the subject GRE (Physics)

 

3) Taking the general GRE

 

4) Explaining why I am in a Masters program and that it's normal to leave for a PhD. At one of the conferences in the US, I introduced myself as a student about to leave with a Masters and a prof told me something like "well that's okay; not everyone needs to get a PhD". After that, I made sure to introduce myself as a Canadian Masters student and that I am applying (or later on, got into) PhD programs. I also felt I needed to explain this in the SOP (although in hindsight, I am sure the US schools have had Canadian applicants before and know how it works...but better safe than sorry). I did include a personal reason for doing a Masters first -- at that time, my SO and I weren't married so she could not have moved to the US with me. We got married during my MSc program.

 

5) An extra concern for us was ensuring my wife can continue her career while we're in the US for my PhD program. There are two types of foreign student status with the US: F-1, the normal type; and J-1, the "exchange visitor" type. Spouses of F-1 are on F-2 status (not allowed to work at all in the US) but spouses of J-1 students are on J-2 status (allowed to work after applying for permission). The minimal requirement for J-1 status is "not mostly funded with personal funds" (i.e. you need full funding from the school or a fellowship) but it's the school's right to decide whether or not to sponsor you for J-1 status. For example, I met all of the requirements but Arizona completely refused to support me on J-1 status.

 

6) Finally....funding, the most tricky issue for the end! In my field, students are always fully funded both in Canada and the US. However, international tuition at public schools in the US are quite high, so in order for the school to fund us with the same take-home pay as the American students, we cost about 2 to 3 times as much!! So, this means that public schools in the US accept a very small number of international students. 

 

For example, at UC Berkeley, they accept about 5 or 6 students in Astronomy each year and about 1 in 10 students are international (i.e. one every two years). My profs who worked in the American school system told me that I would much better off applying to private schools in the US, because international and domestic tuition are both equally ridiculously high. That is, we would be at a disadvantage applying to US public schools but not when applying to US private schools. 

 

This advice turned out to be very good and very true. I applied to a lot of schools in California (the culture and climate is close to Vancouver, what we're used to). I got rejected at all their public schools but accepted at the one private school I applied to. Even though the private school is considered much more competitive and higher ranked than the public schools that rejected me. If you like stats/data: At the University of California school system (public), 10% of its graduate students are international. However, at private schools, the numbers are significantly higher (e.g. Harvard is at 30%, my own school varies between 40% and 45%). 

 

So, the biggest piece of advice I want to give to Canadians applying to US schools is: Don't be intimidated by big name private US schools. Due to the way funding works, we may be much more competitive at these schools than at public schools. In addition, I would say that it's not worth moving to the US for grad school if you aren't getting some special opportunity not available in Canada. That is, unless you need to be in the US for your particular field of work, or you are applying to a top 20 school (mostly private anyways), I don't think it's worth it. Top Canadian schools are generally comparable with US schools ranked in the 20s or 30s so if you can get into one of those, you can probably get into a Canadian school anyways. (Of course, there can be a million other reasons why the US is preferable for you, and if that's the case, ignore this advice!)