How many hours do you prefer undergrads to work?

[neuropanic]

I'll be officially starting to volunteer in a lab working on a project for a post doc. She said I can be as involved or uninvolved as I like, but she thinks the results will be publishable (with positive or negative results), and I would love to help out enough to be listed as an author. How many hours for an undergrad would be typical for this kind of work? It's an off campus lab, so it would take me about 30 mins to get there since my car is parked off campus. I was going to try to do a minimum of 10 hours and 15 when I could/ if the lab is open outside of normal office hours (working with mice so I understand that sleep/wake cycles could be an issue).

Would 10 hours per week be sufficient? Even if it didn't get me listed as an author, is this a normal or desirable amount for an undergrad?

Edited December 25, 2014 by neuropanic

[TakeruK]

I think 10 hours per week (about the equivalent time commitment to one course) is the minimum amount of time needed in order to make it worthwhile for both you (learning new skills) and the postdoc (getting useful help). The exact minimum number would vary based on the project, but I think 10 is a good ballpark estimate.

 

I think the other important thing for you, especially with the commute, is time management. How busy did you feel prior to starting this project? Are you just going to add this extra commitment on and somehow hope to find an extra 10-15 hours per week? 

 

If you felt you were taking a full courseload prior to this project, I would recommend that you take one less class next semester and treat this new project as if it was a graded class. If I was supervising an undergrad, I think this attitude of commitment would be more important than how many hours you pledge to the project. That is, I would want to know that you consider this project a priority and a valuable learning experience just like your classes, not just an extra "side" thing you are doing when you have spare time. 

 

Just my thoughts! And coming from my own experience working on research projects while taking classes as an undergrad!

[peachypie]

I think 10 hours minimum for sure, typically larger chunks of time are way more useful than anything.  I'll also say that its great to do that much and don't feel pressured, but if you are considering working in a lab and/or want to get a position there or something....put a little more in.  You should want to be there as much as you can.

[neuropanic]

I think 10 hours minimum for sure, typically larger chunks of time are way more useful than anything.  I'll also say that its great to do that much and don't feel pressured, but if you are considering working in a lab and/or want to get a position there or something....put a little more in.  You should want to be there as much as you can.

 

 

I think 10 hours per week (about the equivalent time commitment to one course) is the minimum amount of time needed in order to make it worthwhile for both you (learning new skills) and the postdoc (getting useful help). The exact minimum number would vary based on the project, but I think 10 is a good ballpark estimate.

 

I think the other important thing for you, especially with the commute, is time management. How busy did you feel prior to starting this project? Are you just going to add this extra commitment on and somehow hope to find an extra 10-15 hours per week? 

 

If you felt you were taking a full courseload prior to this project, I would recommend that you take one less class next semester and treat this new project as if it was a graded class. If I was supervising an undergrad, I think this attitude of commitment would be more important than how many hours you pledge to the project. That is, I would want to know that you consider this project a priority and a valuable learning experience just like your classes, not just an extra "side" thing you are doing when you have spare time. 

 

Just my thoughts! And coming from my own experience working on research projects while taking classes as an undergrad!

 

Thank you both! 10 hours is the amount of time I found assuming that the lab is only open 8-5 and I will only be going in in the afternoons, leaving mornings to do schoolwork/classes and not going in one day of the week since I have my lab then. 

 

The good news is that I'm only taking 2 science courses and 1 lab, so if the lab is open for longer and on the weekends, I could easily get more hours in. I'm also taking a divisional (should be easy) and a language requirement (should also be easy, but the class is every day). It only adds up to 14 hours. I'm trying to treat the lab as another course.

 

I am very committed, but don't want to overdo it and make my coursework suffer. Looking online and in my undergrad bulletin, getting credit for research usually requires 3 hours per week per credit hour. I'm not doing that this semester since it's not an independent project, but I have to in the future to graduate.

[TakeruK]

I am very committed, but don't want to overdo it and make my coursework suffer. Looking online and in my undergrad bulletin, getting credit for research usually requires 3 hours per week per credit hour. I'm not doing that this semester since it's not an independent project, but I have to in the future to graduate.

 

This sounds about right if your courses are 3 credit hours (so then you need to spend 9 hours in the lab per week for it to be the same commitment as a single course). I definitely agree you don't want to prioritize research so highly that your courses suffer, just like you would not want to prioritize any single course so highly that the other courses suffer. However, what I meant by treating it like a course was to prioritize it the same way as any other single course. So, just like you wouldn't always choose one course over another, don't always choose coursework over research, or research over coursework. The only reason I give this warning is because unlike courses, research often does not have tangible and immediate feedback like grades, so I know sometimes it's hard to justify spending time on research when you know you could use those 10 hours to make that A- into an A in another course. But ultimately, your research experience is much more valuable than grades if you are thinking about grad school. 

 

14 hours of in-class work + research course sounds doable to me. Based on my own ratio of "homework to classwork time" (2:1), that would mean I spend 42 hours per week doing classwork and 10 hours per week doing research, for a total of 52 hours working per week. Not that you need my approval or anything, but if you were writing this to ask for feedback, I'd say your schedule sounds reasonable. Of course, you are the best judge of how many hours you're actually able to put into school/research per week since I don't know anything about you or your hobbies / other commitments!

 

And to echo peachypie, typically, large chunks of time are more useful than many small chunks. But probably best to talk to your supervisor to find out what the best use of your 10 hours would be. In general, I would say that two 5-hour days are going to be much more effective than four 2-3 hour days. It would also mean less commute hassle for you and give you the option of adding a third 5-hour day when you can. But it sounds like your class schedule might not work out this way!

[neuropanic]

This sounds about right if your courses are 3 credit hours (so then you need to spend 9 hours in the lab per week for it to be the same commitment as a single course). I definitely agree you don't want to prioritize research so highly that your courses suffer, just like you would not want to prioritize any single course so highly that the other courses suffer. However, what I meant by treating it like a course was to prioritize it the same way as any other single course. So, just like you wouldn't always choose one course over another, don't always choose coursework over research, or research over coursework. The only reason I give this warning is because unlike courses, research often does not have tangible and immediate feedback like grades, so I know sometimes it's hard to justify spending time on research when you know you could use those 10 hours to make that A- into an A in another course. But ultimately, your research experience is much more valuable than grades if you are thinking about grad school. 

 

14 hours of in-class work + research course sounds doable to me. Based on my own ratio of "homework to classwork time" (2:1), that would mean I spend 42 hours per week doing classwork and 10 hours per week doing research, for a total of 52 hours working per week. Not that you need my approval or anything, but if you were writing this to ask for feedback, I'd say your schedule sounds reasonable. Of course, you are the best judge of how many hours you're actually able to put into school/research per week since I don't know anything about you or your hobbies / other commitments!

 

And to echo peachypie, typically, large chunks of time are more useful than many small chunks. But probably best to talk to your supervisor to find out what the best use of your 10 hours would be. In general, I would say that two 5-hour days are going to be much more effective than four 2-3 hour days. It would also mean less commute hassle for you and give you the option of adding a third 5-hour day when you can. But it sounds like your class schedule might not work out this way!

 

 

Correct. My school is weird about classes. Most upper level classes are offered for one class section per year (so only like 15-30 kids per year could take the class). I would prefer to have all of my classes MWF and use TTh to do research, but it just wouldn't work out that way. Assuming it will take me an hour after my last class MWF to eat lunch and commute, I'd have 3 hours in the lab each afternoon. I'm mostly assuming the work day ends at 5pm because the post doc I'm working for has a family, although I'm sure everyone works longer hours when things pick up. This schedule sounds reasonable to me. I'm a pretty efficient worker and never really have to do my work on the weekends, unless I'm studying for an exam. I could just simply push off some work to the weekend to even it all out and my workload wouldn't be that different (probably actually less difficult anyway because I'm used to all science and math courses, which have labs or class 4 times per week and my divisionals are 100-level). Orrr I guess I could just work later, but I like telling myself to relax around 6-7 and just lie in bed or hang out with friends.

 

Good to hear that 10 hours is reasonable to expect an UG to be in a lab. I will obviously try to do more, but I can only do what I can do. Thanks for the feedback!

Edited December 26, 2014 by neuropanic

[bsharpe269]

I would say that 10 hours directly in the lab is very reasonable. Keep in mind that  alot of research will take place outside of the lab (mainly, reading research papers to better understand your topic). There are some weeks when I do more reading than i do actual work or solely do reading. Don't forget to schedule in time for this. Since this can be done at home or school and you won't need to commute, a few hours of reading per week should not hurt your schedule too much. Good luck!

[neuropanic]

I would say that 10 hours directly in the lab is very reasonable. Keep in mind that alot of research will take place outside of the lab (mainly, reading research papers to better understand your topic). There are some weeks when I do more reading than i do actual work or solely do reading. Don't forget to schedule in time for this. Since this can be done at home or school and you won't need to commute, a few hours of reading per week should not hurt your schedule too much. Good luck!

Thank you! I totally forgot to schedule in that part of things. Good to hear all of the little things that you don't immediately think of when you think of working in a lab.

[ilovelab]

It depends on what you are actually doing in the lab. If your doing westerns/confocal imaging/two photon etc. Your going to spend a lot longer than 10 hours in lab. If its something else then 10 hours would be more than enough.

[neuropanic]

It depends on what you are actually doing in the lab. If your doing westerns/confocal imaging/two photon etc. Your going to spend a lot longer than 10 hours in lab. If its something else then 10 hours would be more than enough.

 

Mainly immunohistochemistry

Edited December 30, 2014 by neuropanic

[fec]

Mainly immunohistochemistry

 

That's probably enough time, split into 2 days per week, to do an IHC batch.

[neuropanic]

That's probably enough time, split into 2 days per week, to do an IHC batch.

 

If it's 9-5, that isn't possible based on my schedule. :/ Would have to be split into 3 days.

[fec]

If it's 9-5, that isn't possible based on my schedule. :/ Would have to be split into 3 days.

 

It'll depend on the protocol, but it's probably more like 3-4 hours a day of IHC/IF.  That leaves the rest of your time for imaging and analysis.  It'll really depend on how involved you are if 10 hours will ultimately be enough time.

Edited January 6, 2015 by fec

[juilletmercredi]

I think most labs are open far more than 9-5.  My work is community-based so I wasn't in a physical lab per se, but my friends and colleagues who did more experimental work were definitely in the laboratory after 5 pm - sometimes as late as 10 or 11 pm depending on the day and what they were doing.  I would imagine that a biology laboratory would be open past 5 pm - and there will probably be some postdocs or graduate students in there - so you can get your work done after hours.

 

Personally, were I taking on an undergraduate student I wouldn't expect a commitment of more than about 10-15 hours from an undergraduate.  Unlike graduate students, research isn't the primary endeavor of undergraduates and they have a lot of other things - other classes, other activities, perhaps a part-time job, and their social development.  If an undergrad WANTED to work in the lab for 20 hours a week that would be great, but I think 10 hours a week is plenty to get some good experience for graduate school and - if the timing is right - perhaps get authorship on a publication.  But I think 10 hours is a completely reasonable expectation for an undergrad.

 

And another thing - at least in my lab and field, nobody expects an undergrad to take full control of one part of a project.  I don't know what ICF is and how big a job it is, so I don't know what's directly comparable in psychological research.  But let's say cleaning data - if I assigned an undergrad to clean data, they wouldn't be the only person in charge of that.  I'd either have multiple undergraduates doing it, or I'd give her a sub-task and finish the task myself or with an graduate student.  It's precisely because the undergrad's time has to be measured in hours rather than in a dedication to completing a specific project.  That's no hard feelings against the undergrad - that's just the way it is, and it's understandable.  As long as she was sufficiently dedicated and did good work in the time that she did come in, that should be enough.

[mandarin.orange]

I don't think there's a magic # hours/week benchmark that guarantees authorship for undergrads. This depends on personalities, your schedule, the lab and their workflow, unanticipated things that come up, what phase the project is in, etc.

 

My lab helpers have all been student volunteers, so I don't push them to work more than what they deem necessary for their schedules, and I tend to plan task lists for just what needs to get done, that day, unless they've expressed to me a long-term interest in the research, going to grad school themselves, deeper implications of the project, etc. I have four (out of maybe 15 total) who've worked with me in the past that I'll eventually list as co-authors on the resultant papers.

 

For authorship, I think at minimum the student needs to be involved in some spreadsheeting and data processing, not just doing rote procedures we do to prep and count samples. Three of these four students got course credit for a self-contained segment of a larger research project over which I gave them some autonomy. They generated a dataset by themselves and wrote a final report or thesis, which requires at least some first-pass interpretation of the results. The fourth didn't do research coursework, but she worked in our lab for the better part of a year, consistently mentioned her interest in learning as many analyses as possible and wanted to know the bigger purpose, and collected much of the baseline data and compiled it into spreadsheets. She saw this project evolve for a longer time than the others. 

As you work in this lab, ASK the supervising PI or grad student about how all this works. Put it on their radar that you're interested in something more than just procedural/labwork labor, so you're in their mind. If there's course credit you can get for research and a short-term project, find out what that entails, and if this is the lab in which you'd want to do it.