major COLD FEET PhD vs medical school

[Grimnir]

I don't know why this has happened, but in the past 2 weeks I have gotten major cold feet about my decision to pursue a PhD in psychology. I long thought being a professor was my ideal job, but having talked to PhDs and done my research it seems like this dream is about dead, and even if you do have the opportunity, you have to make huge financial sacrifices and work like crazy for a pittance. Throughout high school and my first year of college I was absolutely convinced I would be a neurologist or something similar. I used to devour medical textbooks like novels. Then for some reason I can't fully explain I chickened out and got it in my head that I wasn't going to be competitive for medical school and that the financial costs were much too high. Reevaluating myself now, having gained some real world experience, I see that I was completely full of crap. I have a 3.6 science GPA and a 3.8 overall GPA and all the med school prereqs but orgo.

 

 Now I am getting cold feet about pursuing a PhD and I have interviews soon...not good. I am REALLY worried about job security and the financial aspects. I don't doubt I can complete a PhD but as someone who has considerable undergraduate debt I really do not know what to do anymore. I spent hours crunching numbers and it appears that even if I went $400,000 dollars in debt and got into a lower paying specialty in medicine (200k a year)  that even after taxes and loans I would be pulling $85,000 a year.  After it was paid off I would be making anywhere from 140 to 180k a year after taxes (assuming my salary would increase over this 10 year period). This is more than a PhD makes pretty much ever and the physician NEVER has worry about employment or funding and people worship the ground you walk on (besides PhDs). I'm not someone who is out to get rich, but the stress of not having a job and bills about killed me after I graduated. I am terrified I am signing myself up for more of this crap after investing 5-6 years in further education...

 

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy research a lot, but looking at how bad things have gotten has scared me quite a bit. I don't want to be an eternal post-doc earning 40k a year with my loan burden. If I REALLY want to do research, I can still do that as an MD and be more financially secure. But honestly, I don't know. I would have to go back to school and finish my prereqs, study for MCAT, and do a little volunteering/shadow during this period. The thought of backtracking like this makes me half ill as well, but it almost seems preferable.

 

If anyone can talk some sense into me, I would appreciate it.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Grimnir

[spunky]

 

 Now I am getting cold feet about pursuing a PhD and I have interviews soon...not good. I am REALLY worried about job security and the financial aspects. I don't doubt I can complete a PhD but as someone who has considerable undergraduate debt I really do not know what to do anymore. 

 

this is all i needed to know. if getting a PhD in Psychology means you're gonna get further down in debt without a high-paying job waiting for you at the end to kickstart your future RUN AWAY FROM IT LIKE THE PLAGUE.

 

go to medschool, become a doctor. pay off your debts and begin your life. the PhD will always be there. if you made it to interviews this time, you can do it again. 

 

when i was about to start my MA a few years ago, i was worried whether i would be able to handle the workload combined with a business i was starting with a friend of mine from undergrad. i didn't have any debt but i also couldn't even afford a decent couch to sleep in. the career counselor i met with told me that it was probably in my best interest to just kill the business idea, take out a student loan, go to gradschool and figure all out in a few years. i was hesitant about this and decided to pull through both with business AND gradschool. and sure, my academic CV is not as stellar as it could be. i haven't been able to have as many published articles as i would like to... but then again i'm the only person in my lab with no debt, the only person in my lab who has bought his own home and the only person in my lab that can actually go to a nice restaurant and on a nice vacation without having to penny-pinch and beg that X or Y agency will like my funding application. and, heck, this is all coming from a guy who's in one of the very few areas within psychology where the number of offers for tenure-track positions per year actually outnumbers the number of PhD graduates

 

quoting the immortal Brian Kinney from Queer as Folk: There is nothing noble about being poor. and i don't think there are as few things as discouraging as seeing bright young academics barely getting enough money to survive day to day. 

Edited January 13, 2015 by spunky

[Grimnir]

this is all i needed to know. if getting a PhD in Psychology means you're gonna get further down in debt without a high-paying job waiting for you at the end to kickstart your future RUN AWAY FROM IT LIKE THE PLAGUE.

 

go to medschool, become a doctor. pay off your debts and begin your life. the PhD will always be there. if you made it to interviews this time, you can do it again. 

 

when i was about to start my MA a few years ago, i was worried whether i would be able to handle the workload combined with a business i was starting with a friend of mine from undergrad. i didn't have any debt but i also couldn't even afford a decent couch to sleep in. the career counselor i met with told me that it was probably in my best interest to just kill the business idea, take out a student loan, go to gradschool and figure all out in a few years. i was hesitant about this and decided to pull through both with business AND gradschool. and sure, my academic CV is not as stellar as it could be. i haven't been able to have as many published articles as i would like to... but then again i'm the only person in my lab with no debt, the only person in my lab who has bought his own home and the only person in my lab that can actually go to a nice restaurant and on a nice vacation without having to penny-pinch and beg that X or Y agency will like my funding application. and, heck, this is all coming from a guy who's in one of the very few areas within psychology where the number of offers for tenure-track positions per year actually outnumbers the number of PhD graduates

 

quoting the immortal Brian Kinney from Queer as Folk: There is nothing noble about being poor. and i don't think there are as few things as discouraging as seeing bright young academics barely getting enough money to survive day to day. 

I am 80,000 in debt and have 25,000 in savings. I likely wouldn't accrue additional debt during PhD. But for medical school I would have to return to do a year of school which would eat through my savings and if I didn't get in to medical school, I would probably have to hang myself because a psych BS gets you crap salary. It's nice the loan people get you before you have a chance to have a real job and realize what a 700 a month payment feels like. My situation is evidence of why this country's educational system blows. I am being pushed out of fields for purely financial reasons and nothing even remotely related to my competency.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Grimnir

[spunky]

I am 80,000 in debt and have 25,000 in savings. I likely wouldn't accrue additional debt during PhD. But for medical school I would have to return to do a year of school which would eat through my savings and if I didn't get in to medical school, I would probably have to hang myself because a psych BS gets you crap salary. It's nice the loan people get you before you have a chance to have a real job and realize what a 700 a month payment feels like. My situation is evidence of why this country's educational system blows. I am being pushed out of fields for purely financial reasons and nothing even remotely related to my competency.

 

ok, now things are starting to get tricky here. from the way you described the med school option i thought you could somehow ensure your entry in it. 

 

of the $700/month, how much goes to capital and how much is interest? what's the interest rate on the $80,000?

 

and which area(s) of Psych did you apply for?

 

i know, North American education sucks sometimes (things are better in Canada but not that much better). however, the pragmatist in me says that this is the situation you're facing and this is what you've got to work with. 

Edited January 13, 2015 by spunky

[Grimnir]

ok, now things are starting to get tricky here. from the way you described the med school option i thought you could somehow ensure your entry in it. 

 

of the $700/month, how much goes to capital and how much is interest? what's the interest rate on the $80,000?

 

and which area(s) of Psych did you apply for?

 

i know, North American education sucks sometimes (things are better in Canada but not that much better). however, the pragmatist in me says that this is the situation you're facing and this is what you've got to work with. 

 

Nothing is assured, but given my credentials and publication/research experience, I am fairly confident I could do it. The people I have seen get into medical school don't exactly wow me with their intellect...It seems more like hard work than intellectual capacity. Given how scared shitless I am, I'm pretty sure the motivation factor shouldn't be a problem.

 

$400 a month goes to capital. The interest rates for private loans are 3.9% to 5.6% (53k). The federal loans are 5.5 to 6.8%. (27k)

 

I applied to cognitive and some social. My interest is in imaging.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Grimnir

[spunky]

ok... you're definitely not the *worst* case i've seen (i coach students, particularly undergrads, on how to become financially self-sufficient. especially for people who don't have STEM degrees).

 

the part i feel iffy about med school is not the succeeding at it (you seem more than motivated for it) but the getting in part. med schools are still insanely competitive and if you have to go back for a year, empty your savings account and may not end up getting in, then you're gonna be a lot worse than you started. 

 

now, i'm pretty sure you're only willing to consider programs where you'll be fully funded (so at least you can stop the free fall into debt) and cognitive psych actually has some cool extensions to industry stuff (the ones i know the most are in computers) that you could use if a tenure-track position doesn't materialize. 

 

ok, this is what *I* would do in your position, given the very limited input i know from your situation. UNLESS i could confidently say i can get into some medschool (and hence gamble with the personal savings) i would probably stick with the cognitive track, only consider seriously positions that give me a free ride and dwell into programming as much as i can. i dunno why but i see a lot of people in cognitive psych actually being very good with computers... both for data analysis or programming in general and take as many consulting/tutoring/will-analyze-your-data-for-money (or do any sort of technical skills) jobs on the side as i could. the one thing that you can have going is that many people within the social sciences in general are not particularly fond of technical knowledge. a lot of profs with juicy grant$ are probably gonna be super happy of having  someone with certain level of skill in their labs who can deal with that stuff. if you play your cards right and are always open to the idea of branching out outside of your area, i could see it possible for you to actually start bringing that debt closer and closer to 0.

 

what happens after the debt is up to you... but the more you branch out, the higher the chance you won't be stuck in the limbo of underemployment. 

Edited January 13, 2015 by spunky

[Grimnir]

 

ok... you're definitely not the *worst* case i've seen (i coach students, particularly undergrads, on how to become financially self-sufficient. especially for people who don't have STEM degrees).

 

the part i feel iffy about med school is not the succeeding at it (you seem more than motivated for it) but the getting in part. med schools are still insanely competitive and if you have to go back for a year, empty your savings account and may not end up getting in, then you're gonna be a lot worse than you started. 

 

now, i'm pretty sure you're only willing to consider programs where you'll be fully funded (so at least you can stop the free fall into debt) and cognitive psych actually has some cool extensions to industry stuff (the ones i know the most are in computers) that you could use if a tenure-track position doesn't materialize. 

 

ok, this is what *I* would do in your position, given the very limited input i know from your situation. UNLESS i could confidently say i can get into some medschool (and hence gamble with the personal savings) i would probably stick with the cognitive track, only consider seriously positions that give me a free ride and dwell into programming as much as i can. i dunno why but i see a lot of people in cognitive psych actually being very good with computers... both for data analysis or programming in general and take as many consulting/tutoring/will-analyze-your-data-for-money (or do any sort of technical skills) jobs on the side as i could. the one thing that you can have going is that many people within the social sciences in general are not particularly fond of technical knowledge. a lot of profs with juicy grant$ are probably gonna be super happy of having  someone with certain level of skill in their labs who can deal with that stuff. if you play your cards right and are always open to the idea of branching out outside of your area, i could see it possible for you to actually start bringing that debt closer and closer to 0.

 

what happens after the debt is up to you... but the more you branch out, the higher the chance you won't be stuck in the limbo of underemployment. 

 

The acceptance rate to medical school is 40% for people with social science backgrounds. Your odds are actually a lot better than a clinical psych program with 2% acceptance.

[spunky]

now you're making it sound (again) like you actually wanna dump the cognitive psych idea and go into medschool. 

 

ultimately, you know your own situation better than anyone else and neither i nor anyone can convince you of anything if you're already making up your mind. i think i've done the best i can to present both sides of the situation from my (limited) perspective so you can have a 2nd opinion of how to proceed. 

[spunky]

 Your odds are actually a lot better than a clinical psych program with 2% acceptance.

 the other thing i just realized... didn't you say you wanted to get into cognitive/social? so how's the acceptance rate for clinical psych relevant?

Edited January 13, 2015 by spunky

[Grimnir]

 the other thing i just realized... didn't you say you wanted to get into cognitive/social? so how's the acceptance rate for clinical psych relevant?

I was just posting a statistic that might be more relevant to people on here  And honestly, I don't know what I want to do. I know for a fact if I go to medical school I will always be employed, will always be paid well, and will most assuredly have no difficulty finding a spouse who is also well compensated. If I go into PhD I will probably eke out a comfortable upper middle-class existence. I'm actually having a hard time listing the pros of a PhD vs medical school unless you absolutely hate treating patients and have no interest in medical science. The major draw for me is independence and I really do enjoy research. But I can have both of these as a physician...

Edited January 13, 2015 by Grimnir

[spunky]

well, that sounds to me then that you've already made your choice and just need someone to push you over the edge, so i'll do it then:

 

GO, FLY TO MEDICAL SCHOOL! BE FREEEEEEEEE!!!

[KW58D]

This back and forth had me laughing. You've mad your decision, head back to class and knock out that O-Chem, study for the MCAT, and continue on your path.

[Grimnir]

I'm trying to play devil's advocate a bit here in favor of medical school and no one is giving me any good fodder to work with LOL. Honestly, I'm not even close to being decided. This decision blows. Defend the honorable PhD from the arrogant MDs!

Edited January 14, 2015 by Grimnir

[KW58D]

When it comes to finances you'll be hard pressed to find people trying to lure you down the psychology path. The money just isn't there when compared against being a physician. The honor seems to fade away when you are living in poverty. You need to do what you care about. Did you apply to Ph.D programs this cycle?

[Grimnir]

I don't want to be rich I just want money to survive and have a retirement and not force my kids to be debt slaves like me. And yes, I applied.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Grimnir

[Chai_latte]

Medicine is not the sure bet it once was.  Health care reform has changed things and will continue to do so.  Talk to doctors (seasoned and newbies alike) in both primary care and various specialties.  Don't make a decision like this in a vacuum.  Also, it's more difficult to land a residency nowadays.  For years, the number of U.S. medical schools was capped.  Over the past 5 years, there has been a new-medical-school boom and graduating class size at preexisting medical schools has increased BUT the number of stateside residency slots has remained the same.  So, many more U.S. med students are being squeezed into the same, old number of residency positions.  

You know the not-so-pleasant backstory about academia.  Make sure you know all of medicine's ins and outs.  Don't idealize it.

Good luck 

[spunky]

I don't want to be rich I just want money to survive and have a retirement and not force my kids to be debt slaves like me. 

 

in today's economic environment, i would say THAT qualifies as "being rich". not sure if you read the USA Today article that posits the price of the "American Dream" at $130,000/year? (http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/personalfinance/2014/07/04/american-dream/11122015/) if you're making that much a year, you're close to the top 10% of society in terms of highest incomes. 

[PsyDGirl]

The acceptance rate to medical school is 40% for people with social science backgrounds. Your odds are actually a lot better than a clinical psych program with 2% acceptance.

For what it's worth I read this very same thing. I did an informational interview with a neuropsychologist this year and the first thing she asked me was, "is it too late for you to apply to med school?" Ugh yea. Unfortunately I was entering year 8/11 at this point. It was waay too late otherwise maybe I would have made a different choice....

[mac627]

I'm just curious, if the only prereq you have left is o-chem, how will you blow through your savings? It sounds like you could work full-time for a year (and keep making payments on your undergrad loans) while finishing up the course.

 

If you have time, I would try and speak with as many MD's and PhDs as possible. Tell them your dilemma and ask for their insight.

 

If you can swing it, I'd say go for it. At least try, because 30 years from now you might always wonder "what if." You never truly know with med school- I've seen a number of friends accepted, rejected, rejected and then accepted, or rejected and decided to pursue a PhD or PA school. I think all of them were at least happy that they had given it a real shot.

 

If I were you - for what it's worth - I would consider taking a research psych job for two years, finish out your prereqs in a year, study for the MCAT/get your application/LORs together, and apply away. Worst case scenario you have two more years or research experience under your belt and can then apply to PhD programs.

Edited January 16, 2015 by mac627

[Grimnir]

I'm just curious, if the only prereq you have left is o-chem, how will you blow through your savings? It sounds like you could work full-time for a year (and keep making payments on your undergrad loans) while finishing up the course.

 

If you have time, I would try and speak with as many MD's and PhDs as possible. Tell them your dilemma and ask for their insight.

 

If you can swing it, I'd say go for it. At least try, because 30 years from now you might always wonder "what if." You never truly know with med school- I've seen a number of friends accepted, rejected, rejected and then accepted, or rejected and decided to pursue a PhD or PA school. I think all of them were at least happy that they had given it a real shot.

 

If I were you - for what it's worth - I would consider taking a research psych job for two years, finish out your prereqs in a year, study for the MCAT/get your application/LORs together, and apply away. Worst case scenario you have two more years or research experience under your belt and can then apply to PhD programs.

 

I've been looking at schools near me. The community college only offers organic I and lab and the other 2 nearest colleges within commuting distance <1 hour and schedule their classes during work hours. Not sure how I would be able to continue working my current job and still get the pre-reqs. Also, applying and interviewing is very expensive. 2000 to 6000 bucks. And yeah, I am kind of worried about the regret. But the amount of debt these kids take on is absolutely terrifying. I mean, even a doctor making 180k a year can pay off 500,000 in loans in 10 years by living a middle class life, but just knowing you're that much in debt is nauseating...Apparently even at that disgusting amount you still would take home about 65,000 after taxes, which is the equivalent of around 90k normal salary....

Edited January 16, 2015 by Grimnir

[mac627]

I've been looking at schools near me. The community college only offers organic I and lab and the other 2 nearest colleges within commuting distance <1 hour and schedule their classes during work hours. Not sure how I would be able to continue working my current job and still get the pre-reqs.

 

Take the Orgo 1 class + lab for now (I'm assuming this is offered during the evening at the community college, sorry if I misunderstood), while you figure out how/where to take Orgo 2. What is your current work situation? I work in a lab with three shifts, so a big group comes in to work around 12-2 and stays later in the evening. Would your job be open to the possibility of you doing something like that, at least for the days you have class?

 

Also, applying and interviewing is very expensive. 2000 to 6000 bucks.

 

Fair enough. I think paying for the MCAT/applications and travelling for interviews will be the most expensive part, but it shouldn't blow through your entire savings.

 

And yeah, I am kind of worried about the regret. But the amount of debt these kids take on is absolutely terrifying. I mean, even a doctor making 180k a year can pay off 500,000 in loans in 10 years by living a middle class life, but just knowing you're that much in debt is nauseating...Apparently even at that disgusting amount you still would take home about 65,000 after taxes, which is the equivalent of around 90k normal salary....

 

That's definitely a huge factor, which is why I stress talking with people who have an MD or PhD (maybe even set up an "informational interview" if you don't have a lot in your network) who can give you their experience and insight with that.

Edited January 16, 2015 by mac627

[Grimnir]

I have been consumed by this dilemma since I made this post. Literally not thinking about anything else. I think I want to just take the MCAT and prove to myself I could have done well and gotten in. LOL. Messed up, but I seriously think this is more about my desire to prove myself than anything (even though I do have a very genuine interest in medical science). The medical students can have their misery and 500k in debt. I don't think it is worth it for anyone who wants a life.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Grimnir

[mac627]

As long as you're satisfied with your decision, that's all that matters. My old roommate in college had ~3.8 GPA, scored a 32 on the MCAT, had both undergrad and post-bacc research experience, was accepted into a MD/PhD program, and still thought she was underqualifed. She used to joke that she didn't understand how she had gotten in.

 

My point is, I think it's fairly common for most pre-med students to constantly doubt themselves. Like I said, if you are happy with the descision to get a PhD, and that is the career you want, go for it.