Toronto v.s. University College London - Major Help!

[Buffalofan4255]

From the United States and I have a challenging question...

 

Just got admitted to University College London for an MSc in Environment and Sustainable Development - I'm so so excited. However, I'm also waiting on offers from the London School of Economics (same program) and the University of Toronto for an MSc in Sustainability Management.

 

Costs are the same...Toronto is professional while UCL is research based. My girlfriend is in Buffalo, NY for her masters currently, so that gives weight to U of T. but how's the brand of UofT versus UCL in the United States, particularly in Washington D.C., where I'd like to be? 

Edited January 22, 2015 by Buffalofan4255

[bookworm915]

I'm not in your field, but I would say that both have similar selling points as far as universities go. Both have the "exotic foreign" quality which can be a great selling point in American business because it has that global appeal. Toronto might have more similarities to an American program versus the inherent differences in a UK program. But, in my opinion, I would say both are more or less comparable from a US perspective. I think the better thing to look at would be what kind of jobs are you looking for. Would your desired career appreciate more research experience? Or would U of T's professional program give you better North American connections? 

 

Hope this helps somehow! 

[Buffalofan4255]

Just got accepted to Toronto's program!! 

 

So now the really tough decision....and I need help

 

 

 

In terms of the program itself...I do like Toronto's better. UCL's is devoted to developing countries, while Toronto's is completely holistic. That's not to say though that the concepts at UCL can't transfer over to first world countries.

 

 

Here's the breakdown of the cost:

 

UCL: $70,000 for the full 1 year (it's a 1 year program)

Toronto: $60-70,000 for 2 years 

 

 

 

UCL - get to do a dissertation, and then live in a developing country conducting final research for a full month

Toronto - co-op program, and a research paper

 

 

Obviously this is a very personal decision...but I need second thoughts. Is Toronto as good of a school as UCL? If so, I'd give weight to Toronto. Is Toronto as a city, as cool and awesome as London? Arghhh this is so tough. 

 

 

I should also note that Toronto is a professional degree program, while UCL is a research based program. I have 3 years of research experience already as an undergraduate in labs. I'm not looking to go into academia, and am just looking to get a decent job either with one of my former internship places (NASA HQ) or in politics, most likely either in Washington D.C. or Buffalo, NY.

[-hermes-]

Toronto seems to make the most sense for you. It may not be as exciting as London, but it's a nice city. The schools are of roughly the same caliber, I'd say. The UofT degree is professional, which suits you since you're not looking to go into academia, and plus, it's close to both your girlfriend and DC/Buffalo for potential networking. If you go to UCL, it seems you might have to argue that your skills (and knowledge acquired on a different continent) are transferable.

[bookworm915]

I'm going to second -hermes-. If you aren't looking to get into academia or some variation therein, then the research experience might not be as "sellable." However, UofT's professional degree might be more attractive to people in the public sector. It implies training and taught skills versus the more malleable experience of a research degree. 

 

I don't know that Toronto has the same attractive qualities that London has as far as the city life goes. But you might not get the kind of time to experience the city if you are completing a 1 year research degree with one month of it being relocated to a foreign country. 

 

Best of luck!

[mrpink]

The program in Toronto is located in mississauga, not in the downtown core. Not sure if that makes any difference to you.

[Buffalofan4255]

wow some really good answers here - much better than reddit. 

 

Mrpink - yeah I know it's on Mississauga - which I actually really like the campus there. But I'm also gona really try to get into Graduate House, which has 300 spots for graduate students on the St. George campus in a beautiful modern building for only USD $750/month rent, which isn't bad! 

 

 

Toronto's program is very applicable and practical. You learn how to model, how to use law, economics, science, and management with respect to sustainability and environmentalism. UCL's program is solely on developing countries really...and I feel like that'll pigeon hold me down, especially if I'd like my career options be open to the public sector (NGOs, government, particularly in D.C.) and private sector (particularly SpaceX, Boeing, Tesla, and the start-up community). 

 

 

One thing that's on my mind though...is that for the last 3 years, I've been really set on going to the UK. Maybe it was because of a breakup with a long term girlfriend...I'm not sure....but I knew I was set on Edinburgh. I actually visited Edinburgh Uni and the city last January...and really liked it. One year later, I didn't even apply to edinburgh. Toronto, UCL, LSE, and Oxford were simply better. Now I also have a new girlfriend...one who's a lot lot lot lot better, and things are quite honestly great. But idk if I'm being swayed to go to Toronto simply because of her...instead of going to that dream place of London, UK. And I'm just worried I'll regret a decision here either way...

[mrpink]

Buffalofan, let me know what you choose. I just got accepted into the U of T program as well and I am strongly considering going.

[Buffalofan4255]

No way - that's awesome.

 

Just wanna clarify btw...UTM is still a University of Toronto degree, as opposed to a UTM degree, right? Just wanna make sure...

[Tiggerise]

No way - that's awesome.

 

Just wanna clarify btw...UTM is still a University of Toronto degree, as opposed to a UTM degree, right? Just wanna make sure...

 

 

UTM is not a separate University fromm University of Toronto, its just a different campus like UTSc (Scarborough campus). Therefore there is no such thing as a UTM degree.  (Knowledge Source: I went to UofT).

 

Anyways I would actually not recommend living in Grad House if your program is located at UTM, the commute between the two is awful and long. It can be up to a hour and a half and even longer during the winter just due to it taking a horrible route.  Also most of your classmates will probably be living around UTM for that simple fact. UTM has some townhouses residence that you should look into.

[Buffalofan4255]

Yeahh I get the commute thing, but I'm relatively used to it. Worked in DC this summer, my commute was an hour, and worked in Boston the summer before, that was 1.5 hours. I don't mind it really, and if anything, it's meditation time Haha. I'd really prefer being on the St. George campus to really take it all in, including the city.

Quite honestly, while the program won't be a breeze, I don't think Ill have to compromise life standards all that much, and in that case, I'd rather be downtown

[-hermes-]

Just a note that commuting from St George to UTM every day will suck, and be expensive -- you'll have to take the subway, then the GO train, and then a bus. Or just a super long subway ride and one or two buses. But yeah, living downtown is a LOT nicer than out in Mississauga (but I'm not a fan of the suburbs). 

[Tiggerise]

Just a note that commuting from St George to UTM every day will suck, and be expensive -- you'll have to take the subway, then the GO train, and then a bus. Or just a super long subway ride and one or two buses. But yeah, living downtown is a LOT nicer than out in Mississauga (but I'm not a fan of the suburbs). 

 

Im not sure how the shuttle works for graduate level programs, but it is free for UTM undergrad students. 

 

Just want to point out the commute from St. George to UTM is actually roughly an hour (the shuttle is longer)and it does not involve the GO Train or Bus. I now live in Mississauga close to UTM and work downtown. 

 

From St. George station to Islington station, roughly 25 minute subway ride. Then take 101 to UTM, roughly 30 minute ride on express bus that drops you off right in campus. 

 

Just wanted to add: Grad house to St. George station is less than 10 minute walk or you can take a streetcar that will drop you off on the Green line (2 minute streetcar ride and the stop is right across the street from grad house).

 

The commute just sucks in the winter time. 

Edited January 23, 2015 by Tiggerise

[ellebe]

Hi! I'm in a totally different field, but as a Torontonian living in London (with degrees from U of T and LSE) I have some potentially helpful insights...

 

1) Support system. The North American system offers a hell of a lot more. U of T is generally known for its hands-off approach. (Other Canadian universities generally taunt U of T undergrads by saying "you're just a number.") That said, there's a lot more reading guidance than you'd get in the UK. Over here, there's a lot more independent study from a young age. This really weighs in at exam time. If you're kind of shit at exams (like me) and used to getting serious, helpful prep (whether in an SAT setting or a TA session before finals), exams over here are going to suck. Check on how your program weights them. My course at LSE was 100% exam based, which meant going from "Distinction" (A) coursework to "Merit" (medium-to-low final marks. I had amazing, supportive profs at LSE, but the system is really different and it can seriously impact your grades.

 

2) Location. Living in Toronto and commuting to UTM WILL be cheaper than living in London. Hell, living in Toronto and eating gold will be cheaper than living in London. London is awesome. London is also expensive as hell. Take every expense you usually have and switch the $ for a £. (At the current exchange rate, that means you're pretty much doubling your costs.) There are fantastic free and cheap things to do in London, but your biggest expense - rent - is not one of them. Also, the cheap things are still more expensive than any cheap thing at home. I was home for Christmas and went out with an old friend in the Annex (student area). We paid $22 for a carafe of wine and two beers. That's roughly £11, which will maybe cover the two beers if you're somewhere really cheap outside central London. 

 

All of this said: London is still London. Walk across the Hungerford Bridge at night and tell me it's not worth every damn penny. Sorry, pence.

 

These are my starting points, happy to answer any questions.

 

Last thoughts for now: sunny and below 0 in Toronto > +5 in London. The air over here is mad wet. Don't be fooled by the numbers.

[nugget]

Do you begin school in the fall? Have you considered spending a few months in the UK before grad school begins (working or volunteering) to get it out of your system, and attending U of T after you return?

 

Based on all the factors you mentioned and all the great points others have mentioned here (cheaper living costs, opportunity to learn new skills, networking opportunities, as well as proximity to your girlfriend) my vote is for U of T, but the choice is entirely yours to make.

[random17]

The UTM shuttle is free for UTM-affiliated grad students. Figure on it being an hour each way, but it can also be 35 minutes if the traffic's good. (This may no longer be true given the construction on the Gardner, but even when it's an a 60 minute ride it's still one bus with one stop, so you can read or listen to music or whatever and not have to pay attention until you get to campus.) If you live walking/biking distance from St. George it works out to a free commute, which is awesome. I spent a year doing the downtown to UTM commute via biking and shuttle and it was so much better (and cheaper!) than the subsequent year I spent doing bus-subway-bus to get to UTSC. Rent will be cheaper in Mississauga, but tons of grad students live downtown even if they're based at UTM.

 

I can't really speak to the program, but I'm an American currently living in Toronto, but I did my MSc in London, so I have lots of thoughts on comparing the two cities. This essentially boils down to that the year I spent living in London for my MSc was awesome and while I enjoy Toronto in it's own way, as a city it really in no way compares to London. 

 

Weather-wise, it's true that I lived in Toronto through the delight that was last winter and lived in London during the 2011-12 drought, but I found London to be on the whole much nicer. Toronto is probably less rainy, but still has the mid-west overcast bit and can have bitterly cold winters. London is also amazing in terms of free things to do all year round. In Toronto, the majority of the typical indoor winter things (museums, etc.) are really expensive, whereas in London they're free. London also has some great botanical gardens--again, wonderful for the winter months.

 

Cost-wise, rent is higher in London, but you can find cheap student housing in both cities. (London in particular has lots of cheap housing catering towards international students.) London public transit is substantially cheaper (and better and faster). I find food in Toronto more expensive than in London. I'm mostly comparing my grocery bills between the cities, but restaurant prices were on par, I think. (Ontario dairy/egg prices are ridiculous--basically double what you'd pay for milk/cheese/eggs in Manhattan.)

 

Transit: In London, crucially, not only is everything in the city itself super-duper-easily accessible by rapid, efficient public transit, but points of interest outside the city are easily and fairly affordably accessible by rapid, efficient trains too (especially with a student rail card). In Toronto, transit is reasonably efficient in the downtown core of the city (for all that it still can't match London), but there are many points of interest a couple hours drive outside the city  that are completely inaccessible without a car; and even within those cities proper, there are many neighborhoods that are a huge nuisance to visit without a car.

 

Health insurance is another big one. You'd have NHS in London, equivalent to what the Brits have. At U of T you'll probably get UHIP for free, but it's super basic and very few places accept it or even know it exists.

 

Random other things: It's strangely hard to get high-quality vegetables in Toronto, whereas London had good things from southern Europe. (The growing season is short, and even in high season produce is only good, not great; out of season, produce is generally worse than in most northern US cities.) As an American in London you'll be obviously marked as a foreigner, whereas in Toronto everyone will assume you're Canadian. This has pros and cons both ways.

[Buffalofan4255]

Thank you all for the awesomely detailed and lengthy responses. I've chosen Toronto! I'm still waiting to hear back from the LSE, but Toronto is it. 

 

Here's my reasoning weighed out of 100 points because I'm an economist .....

 

1. Program (30 points)

Toronto is more suited and tailored for careers, but as a professional degree, it also has a research course (but not dissertation...it's either a research paper, literature review, or case analysis). However, Toronto's program is also very new...that can be a downside for alumni connections. UCL is solely research and essay based, which I really like, but lacks the professional outlook - the program is devoted to developing countries, which is great, but can pigeonhole me down when I'm looking for a career in sustainability and management here in the U.S. (D.C. preferably). However, UCL's month abroad researching in a developing country is fantastic. LSE on the other hand offers none of these perks...just research in a library for 12 months -__-. 

 

Toronto: 27

UCL: 22

LSE: 19

 

2. University Prestige and Reputation (30 points)

'London' on a resume has je ne se quoi. Reputation of the U of T is similar to UCL, but falls short of the LSE. However, the LSE program doesn't offer research OR any professional components. In addition, rankings wise, U of T beats LSE because the LSE is focused solely on social sciences, and I enjoy a comprehensive uni, especially when I can beat down on fellow unis such as Cornell. F*** Cornell. 

 

Toronto: 26 

UCL: 27

LSE: 30

 

3. Location (15 points)

While London is incredible, Toronto is also the best city in Canada. The lifestyle and experiences would be at least similar, that is both cities are culturally diverse, cosmopolitan, and eventful. London beats Toronto out, definitely, but not more than 1-2 points. 

 

Toronto: 13

UCL: 15

LSE: 15

 

4. Cost (15 points)

Because Toronto is a 2 year MSc, while UCL and LSE are 1 year programs, cost is roughly the same when put into those cost estimators the unis give you.

Toronto is $75,000, UCL/LSE are about the same, although London groceries and such may come out to be more expensive. For this reason, I'm giving the programs the following points:

 

Toronto: 12

UCL: 11

LSE: 11

 

5. Miscellaneous (10 points)

Girlfriend in Buffalo, London has that whole 'James Bond' thing, Toronto helps me form an identity around the region (coupled with a Uni at Buffalo undergrad), location with respect to home in New England, alumni connections of unis, etc. etc...

 

Toronto: 10

UCL: 9

LSE: 9

 

 

Overall score...

 

Toronto: 88

UCL: 84

LSE: 84

Edited January 28, 2015 by Buffalofan4255

[nugget]

I like your system of reasoning. Congrats on your decision! U of T is a great school.

[smpalesh]

Congrats on your decision.  UofT is a great school.  It is the number #1 university in Canada and in the top #20 in the entire world.  Hopefully you will be very happy there.

[Buffalofan4255]

Hey guys...I have an updated question I need to ask....

 

 

I recently did some more research on another Sustainability Management program, this time at Columbia University. I found out that I am indeed competitive for their program.

 

Question is, the program is housed in Columbia's School of Continuing Education. It's still a MSc in Sustainability Management though.

 

I've already 'accepted' and sent out $400 to Toronto...but yeah I'm having second thoughts if this program exists at Columbia. Any thoughts from peeps?