Rigorous programs?

[DramaDuck]

I've been reading some posts about how this and that program is rigorous. How do you determine that a school is intellectually rigorous? Is it the classes? The way the program is run? 

 

I didn't consider this factor when I selected schools for this fall. 

[echo449]

It can really depend on the atmosphere of the department. Graduate reading loads don't vary GREATLY among programs (especially the ones you listed in your signature), but the atmosphere of the department might mean that you are involved in a few reading groups/ reading tough theory regularly on top of all of that, or are doing X/Y/Z in addition to your coursework because of expectations that you feel are typical of yr cohort. 

Edited January 28, 2015 by echo449

[Dr. Old Bill]

I used what I call the "Derrida Scale," wherein you count all the faculty members with a stated interest in literary theory and divide it by total faculty. The higher the number, the more rigorous the program.

 

 

No. Not really. "Rigor" wasn't really a factor for me either. "Fit" was key...basically finding POIs and an institutional orientation that aligns with my own research interests. Since all of the programs I applied to are in USNews' top 50, I just assume that rigor comes along with academic prestige. I may be wrong, but it's really a tertiary consideration for me, at best.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Wyatt's Torch

[HesseBunuel90]

I feel that any program leading to a doctorate will be rigorous. Of course, there are some variations, and most programs will have graduate guidebooks which lay out the details of each program. Overall, though, there are no "easy" doctoral programs.

Edited January 28, 2015 by HesseBunuel90

[snyegurachka]

I agree that any somewhat respected phd program is rigorous—especially in literary studies and English. I think that finding a rigorous MA program is more of an issue.

 

My definition of rigor is that intellectual life and discourse are high, people are passionate about what they do, they work to write dissertations to be published and read, not as a means to an end to graduate, etc.

[ComeBackZinc]

Programs aren't rigorous. You chart a rigorous path or you don't. I suppose the minimal amount of work and reading and effort you have to invest will vary from program to program. But at the high end, it's on you. Nobody is going to be looking over your shoulder to ensure that you're doing the necessary out-of-class work that is such an essential part of your graduate education. Nobody will handhold you through submitting to conferences, collections, and journals. Nobody is going to ensure that you're taking a sufficiently deep, varied, and challenging course load, beyond minimum departmental requirements. Rigor is something you can create, or not. That's true of essentially any program.

[NowMoreSerious]

There are too many ways to judge this:  difficulty, level of expectation?  Amount of coursework?  Expectations within the seminars?  What are the "first stage" or "part I" requirements?  People should also not overlook funding.  Programs that do not fund well, (causing you to have to pick up outside jobs and work) might make a program feel very "rigorous" because of the time constraints.  

 

DramaDuck, don't worry though.  Judging from your list, wherever you go will feel very rigorous, trust me. 

[allplaideverything]

Programs aren't rigorous. You chart a rigorous path or you don't. I suppose the minimal amount of work and reading and effort you have to invest will vary from program to program. But at the high end, it's on you.

 

This is exactly right. Especially after you're finished with coursework, you're going to be pretty much self-directed when it comes to studying for comps and working on your dissertation. While the culture of the program is definitely important, I think you need to bring your own rigor.

 

But, for what it's worth, looking at your application list in your signature, DramaDuck, I imagine you'll find yourself surrounded by  plenty of committed scholars.

[__________________________]

Programs aren't rigorous. You chart a rigorous path or you don't. I suppose the minimal amount of work and reading and effort you have to invest will vary from program to program. But at the high end, it's on you. Nobody is going to be looking over your shoulder to ensure that you're doing the necessary out-of-class work that is such an essential part of your graduate education. Nobody will handhold you through submitting to conferences, collections, and journals. Nobody is going to ensure that you're taking a sufficiently deep, varied, and challenging course load, beyond minimum departmental requirements. Rigor is something you can create, or not. That's true of essentially any program.

Yeah, I'm not sure how I would measure "rigor"; like others I will assume all will be demanding.  Everyone will understand challenge and rigor differently due to differing interests.  My undergrad experience reflects ComeBackZinc's comment almost to a t: plenty of people got by with passable grades without doing that much work, but others (like me) worked their asses off -- I want to say it was because I chose to, but it was really because I was falling in love with doing academic work.  People like me resented those who didn't go the extra mile because it made the general classroom atmosphere less stimulating (but also, perhaps, drove us to work that much harder).  I imagine this "sharing the load" atmosphere will be present in a Ph.D. program even more strongly -- your cohort will be more carefully selected, more passionate, and (possibly) more competitive than in undergrad no matter where you go, I would think.  That's how I imagine it anyway -- people will know if you're not keeping up, and I imagine that will be the case almost anywhere, especially in the aforementioned "top 50" or whatever universities. 

 

In short, I'm sure all of us 2015ers are in for quite a demanding few years.  :-)

[Dr. Old Bill]

Yeah, I'm not sure how I would measure "rigor"; like others I will assume all will be demanding.  Everyone will understand challenge and rigor differently due to differing interests.  My undergrad experience reflects ComeBackZinc's comment almost to a t: plenty of people got by with passable grades without doing that much work, but others (like me) worked their asses off -- I want to say it was because I chose to, but it was really because I was falling in love with doing academic work.  People like me resented those who didn't go the extra mile because it made the general classroom atmosphere less stimulating (but also, perhaps, drove us to work that much harder).  I imagine this "sharing the load" atmosphere will be present in a Ph.D. program even more strongly -- your cohort will be more carefully selected, more passionate, and (possibly) more competitive than in undergrad no matter where you go, I would think.  That's how I imagine it anyway -- people will know if you're not keeping up, and I imagine that will be the case almost anywhere, especially in the aforementioned "top 50" or whatever universities.

 

Sometimes I think you're my spirit animal, MM.

 

Yes, all of this resonates with me quite a bit. Sometimes I think it's because I'm older, but when I see other students clearly half-assing it and just getting by, I get annoyed. I shouldn't really care. It doesn't affect me in any significant way...but I slightly resent it nonetheless.

 

Also, I'm not sure if anyone else has encountered this at their UG institution, but there seems to be an institutional encouragement for students to not worry about grades where I am. While I understand that grades aren't the be all, end all of an undergraduate education, I still think it's rather wrong-headed to actively tell students to not worry about grades. Especially if a student decides he or she wants to move on to grad school someday...

[kurayamino]

My undergrad experience reflects ComeBackZinc's comment almost to a t: plenty of people got by with passable grades without doing that much work, but others (like me) worked their asses off -- I want to say it was because I chose to, but it was really because I was falling in love with doing academic work.  People like me resented those who didn't go the extra mile because it made the general classroom atmosphere less stimulating (but also, perhaps, drove us to work that much harder).  I imagine this "sharing the load" atmosphere will be present in a Ph.D. program even more strongly -- your cohort will be more carefully selected, more passionate, and (possibly) more competitive than in undergrad no matter where you go, I would think.  That's how I imagine it anyway -- people will know if you're not keeping up, and I imagine that will be the case almost anywhere, especially in the aforementioned "top 50" or whatever universities. 

 

In short, I'm sure all of us 2015ers are in for quite a demanding few years.  :-)

 

Yes, this represents my experience as well. I remember a fellow English student, who entered into her/his PhD program Fall 2014, admitting that they hadn't read a book through all of their undergraduate career at my institution. Not only was I really surprised by this admission, but I was deeply offended too. Somehow he had made it through, to a top 10 PhD program and he hadn't read a book. Needless to say, he's finding the "rigor" of the program pretty difficult, but I suspect it's because he made no attempts to develop a strategy on how to handle workload.

 

Undergrad is supposed to provide a stimulating and rewarding environment to give you the skills you need to be able to handle the challenges of grad school. I think the "rigor" one feels is the disconnect between that readiness and the expectations of your program.

[NowMoreSerious]

 

 

Undergrad is supposed to provide a stimulating and rewarding environment to give you the skills you need to be able to handle the challenges of grad school. I think the "rigor" one feels is the disconnect between that readiness and the expectations of your program.

 

In my view Grad school is a whooooole other beast.  Consider how tiny the percentage is of people who go on Ph.D. programs.  

[Ramus]

In my view Grad school is a whooooole other beast.  Consider how tiny the percentage is of people who go on Ph.D. programs.  

 

I've definitely found this to be the case. When you enter a program, your passion becomes your job overnight, and I don't think anybody can be ready for all that the transition entails.

[kurayamino]

Ahh, yes I was rather unclear. I meant that it should prepare you for grad school if it's your intention to go that direction. It's been a very long day!

In regards to your passion feeling like your job, I can see how that could be the case, but personally I've been working towards just being competitive for grad schools for the last few years through fellowships and so forth. Therefore it was both my passion and my job. But this's is just my own understanding of what grad school will be like of course. And I wasn't trying to suggest that it won't be rigorous or that aspects won't be difficult, but that the amount of rigor one experiences may be directly related to how one went through undergrad.

[Roquentin]

Personal drive trumps all, but supervision is another factor to consider, especially when the dissertation comes into play. Too rigorous or too relaxed = problems.

[Horb]

I think it is a combination of factors. For instance, the reading load, in my experience, does vary. I'm coming straight from a BA, but I know people with MA degrees from the University of Chicago, NYU, and other schools who find that my program has WAY more reading (and denser reading) than their previous programs. There is also the expectations of participating in all department activities (showing up to meetings about the department and its growth, participating in reading groups, mandatory colloquium attendance, etc.). And, in addition to all of this, you might be expected to publish or have conference papers. The rigor really depends on the department expectations of what constitutes a good graduate student, which sometimes seems like what makes an ambitious graduate student.