UK vs US admissions

[gurumaster8899]

How are they different? Which is better?

[kahlan_amnell]

How are they different? Which is better?

I think you would have to give more details for people to answer that question. What do you mean by better? Do you mean which admissions process is better? Which is a better place to go to grad school? Something else entirely?

[Minnesotan]

I think the velociraptor would kick both their asses!

[belowthree]

I dunno man, have you seen some of those admissions staffers? I think one on one the velocirapter would win no contest, but when you allow a whole massive admissions bureaucracy to gang up on one velocirapter?

Can you even imagine how many forms the poor soul would have to chew through?

Now a herd of velociraptors and I say you've got a sure bet.

(Disclaimer: Having met many nice admissions officers, I would like to mention that I have no desire for them to be eaten by extinct dinosaurs.)

[leetchisgod]

Much harder to get funding in the UK if you're not an Brit/European. Plus they pretty much require you to have a fully detailed research proposal for admissions, which isn't always the easiest thing to work on. But other than that, Britain is AWESOME.

[modernity]

is there anyone on the board that has applied to schools in the UK from the US and can share any experiences? I am curious about this myself. How the gpa transfers, what time of year applications are usually do, how often international students are taken? The websites that I have looked at so far have been very vague.

[aanchal.iitd]

As an international student, you can be assured that you will get admitted to a uni in the UK coz they charge 5 times money from international students and it appears to be the only source of funding for them as they don't have many scholarships and bursaries. They don't ask for GRE scores, it's really easy to get an admit into them, but the intake quality is crap. If you want to go to Europe, Germany is a better option as they have loads of funding and an excellnt research infrastructure.

[ridgey]

As an international student, you can be assured that you will get admitted to a uni in the UK coz they charge 5 times money from international students and it appears to be the only source of funding for them as they don't have many scholarships and bursaries. They don't ask for GRE scores, it's really easy to get an admit into them, but the intake quality is crap. If you want to go to Europe, Germany is a better option as they have loads of funding and an excellnt research infrastructure.

It's not quite that simple. Just as in the US, quality and difficulty of admission differs by university and by degree. Bear inmind that the majority (not all, but a lot) of the price differential between domestic and international tuition/fees is state subsidy rather than the university using it as a cash cow. The same way State universities in the US offer discounts for in-state students.

That said, the taught masters programmes are the most likely to be cash-cows for the uni. For research degrees (whether MPhil or PhD) there is funding available for able international students, the difference is that you are expected to find it. The uni will advertise etc, but there is far less hand-holding in general than in the US. So finding (adequate) funding is a lot of work, and will be more work now that the UK govt has stopped the ORS scheme. I am international to both systems, and I am applying to mostly US schools just because the work involved in finding funding for the UK is overwhelming.

As far as admissions goes, again it depends. you could say whether a specific US or Uk school is easier to get into, but you can't really talk in generalities. One thing about the UK systemis that you are expected to be further along in your scholarly development/growth by the time you apply. The admission consists primarily of a research proposal for the thesis topic - research questions, methods, start of a lit review, etc. In the US system, students aren't expected to have that much clarity about their research until they're further into the programme.

So which will be "better" will vary by individual. If you don't already know what you want to study, you'll probably find the UK process a lot of hard work, although you could contact a potential supervisor and ask what projects s/he has waiting for students. If you don't feel ready to start doing your own research immediately - you might need more stats training or background, for instance - then you're probably best to go for the US. If you feel ready to jump in, go for the US. If, like me, you'd be happy either way apply to both.

As far as "better" there is a real perception in US academic circles that any US qualification is inherently better than any UK or other one. It's not universally held, obviously, and people might be more generous if they know of a particular brilliant scholar in their field in a UK university. But Oxford, Cambridge, places that are easily the equals of Harvard, Stanford, etc, are by some the only UK universities that might grudgingly be conceded to be almost as good as the average US uni.

So if your goal is a US academic career, keep this in mind.

Sorry this was so long-winded!

[keylimekai]

tip top, I want to hear more about this...thinking about applying to oxford

Edited October 22, 2009 by keylimekai

[Ziz]

I've never been through the US admissions process before (this will be my first time) but I have done the UK version for my masters degree and am now applying for PhDs in the UK. If you are applying to an MPhil or MSc program you will likely not have to have a detailed proposal ready. Usually you just need a general idea of what you're interested in. Most universities will let you count your MPhil as the first year or two of your PhD so it's a good way of getting into a PhD without doing the whole proposal upfront. On the other hand, if you are applying to a PhD program, you will need a full proposal. Most programs require a masters degree so presumably that degree helped you narrow down what you want to study. Keep in mind that the nature of a British PhD is not as comprehensive as American programs. You don't have 2 years of coursework before you start writing your thesis (because you already did that in your masters) so you need to show that you will be ready on teh first day to start your thesis research/writing. My proposal is almost 4,000 words long and taht seems to be the norm!

[keylimekai]

a more specific question - what's the deal with qualifications? what do these things mean, and how do I compare?

First Class

Honours

Pass

Second Class, Division One

Second Class, Division Two

Third Class

Unclassified

[Ziz]

a more specific question - what's the deal with qualifications? what do these things mean, and how do I compare?

First Class

Honours

Pass

Second Class, Division One

Second Class, Division Two

Third Class

Unclassified

Ok in the UK, you get grades in particular courses/exams but when you graduate you are given a classification. Order as follows:

First Class Honours

Upper Second (also seen as 2:1)

Lower Second (also see as 2:2)

Third

Pass

VERY roughly, a First is over 3.7 GPA, an Upper Second is 3.5 and anything under that I don't know because most PhD programs require at least a 2:1 so I haven't investigated what the lower classes correspond to. Also note that if they give you the grades required in percent, that that does not correspond at all to the US/Canadian system. In the UK 70% is a very good mark and is an A (First). So if they say they require a minimum of 70% they'll require a much higher mark from an American.

[alexis]

a more specific question - what's the deal with qualifications? what do these things mean, and how do I compare?

First Class

Honours

Pass

Second Class, Division One

Second Class, Division Two

Third Class

Unclassified

If it helps, I just got my transcripts from the university I studied abroad at in the UK. They broke down the grading explanation like this:

First Class- 70% and above- 16.52% of students graduate with this classification

2:1 (Upper Second)- 60-69%- 59.38% of students graduate with this classification

2:2 (Lower Second)- 50-59%- 20.30% of students " "

3 (Third)- 40-49%- 2.76% of students " "

Fail- Below 40%- 1.04% of students " "

They also included this note on the transcript explanation: "very few students achieve marks above 73%"

It's really hard to get above 70, IMHO. I worked pretty hard in all my classes, where I would normally expect to get an A or A- in my US classes, but only managed to pull a 71 in one of them. In the other classes I got in the mid to high 60s. (Of course, this could also partially due to my adapting to the british system- which was WAY different than american, much more independent study based, which I wasn't used to at the time.)

My husband (who is british) got a 2:1 on his degree. He works in the US now, and had a 3.5 equivalent GPA listed on his resume. It's hard to get an exact estimate when the UK classification is so broad. (You can work your butt off and end up with a 69% average, or not work as hard and manage to get a 60% average--but you end up with the same degree classification.)

[Ziz]

If it helps, I just got my transcripts from the university I studied abroad at in the UK. They broke down the grading explanation like this:

First Class- 70% and above- 16.52% of students graduate with this classification

2:1 (Upper Second)- 60-69%- 59.38% of students graduate with this classification

2:2 (Lower Second)- 50-59%- 20.30% of students " "

3 (Third)- 40-49%- 2.76% of students " "

Fail- Below 40%- 1.04% of students " "

They also included this note on the transcript explanation: "very few students achieve marks above 73%"

It's really hard to get above 70, IMHO. I worked pretty hard in all my classes, where I would normally expect to get an A or A- in my US classes, but only managed to pull a 71 in one of them. In the other classes I got in the mid to high 60s. (Of course, this could also partially due to my adapting to the british system- which was WAY different than american, much more independent study based, which I wasn't used to at the time.)

My husband (who is british) got a 2:1 on his degree. He works in the US now, and had a 3.5 equivalent GPA listed on his resume. It's hard to get an exact estimate when the UK classification is so broad. (You can work your butt off and end up with a 69% average, or not work as hard and manage to get a 60% average--but you end up with the same degree classification.)

Totally agree. 70 is a great mark; 75 is about as good as it gets - at least in humanities/social science. On the other hand, because classifications are so broad, I think UK grad schools take other factors more into account - LOR, research proposal, etc. etc.

[keylimekai]

So if I have a 3.75 undergrad GPA, should I write that I'm first class?

[Ziz]

So if I have a 3.75 undergrad GPA, should I write that I'm first class?

I would just give your GPA.

[fluttering]

As far as admissions goes, again it depends. you could say whether a specific US or Uk school is easier to get into, but you can't really talk in generalities. One thing about the UK systemis that you are expected to be further along in your scholarly development/growth by the time you apply. The admission consists primarily of a research proposal for the thesis topic - research questions, methods, start of a lit review, etc. In the US system, students aren't expected to have that much clarity about their research until they're further into the programme.

So which will be "better" will vary by individual. If you don't already know what you want to study, you'll probably find the UK process a lot of hard work, although you could contact a potential supervisor and ask what projects s/he has waiting for students. If you don't feel ready to start doing your own research immediately - you might need more stats training or background, for instance - then you're probably best to go for the US. If you feel ready to jump in, go for the US. If, like me, you'd be happy either way apply to both.

ridgey raised some important points here - if you are planning a PhD that doesn't involve coursework, then you need to make sure that you already have the skills you need to finish your thesis, or can realistically learn them in the timeframe of a 3-4 year PhD. Otherwise you will run out of time and/or have to take time off mid-way to acquire the skills, both of which pose problems for an international student. In the UK they typically prefer/expect applicants to already have a Master's degree (although this will depend on how rigorous your undergrad degree is). For a PhD you would definitely need to have a clear idea of your potential supervisor and thesis plan.

I thought the British Council had a page listing international standards that are equivalent to their honours ranks, but I can't find it.

[keylimekai]

I would just give your GPA.

The question only allows responses in the "first class honours, second class, etc." format....

[a fragrant plant]

if you want to experience a new major or simply earn a master degree to enhance your resume. apply to the taught master in the uk. it's a one-year program and is very easy to get in. all you need is a not-too-bad academic record and cash as funding is rare for international students.

if you are serious about doing research, apply to the MSc by Research+PhD program or the MPhil then re-apply for the PhD. the uk schools don't require the gre. but you do need to have a research proposal in hand that elaborates 1) what you're going to study 2)why the proposed research is important (a.k.a contribution) 3) methodology

[Ziz]

The question only allows responses in the "first class honours, second class, etc." format....

I would say yours is a First Class in that case.