Gap year(s) vs Masters vs straight-to-PhD... How did you decide?

[mockturtle]

***Can anyone comment on the work situation for a neuro/bio-researcher straight out of undergrad?***

***Which path did you take, and what influenced your decision?***

***Exactly how clueless am I, scale of 1 to 10?***

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm a junior in undergrad, planning on a PhD in neuro at some point in the future, and it's getting to be the time that I should really figure out whether I'm going through the grad-school application process next fall.

(Though I'm sure this all largely depends on individual factors, I'd really appreciate some insight into the relative wisdom of each option.)

 

If I could be somehow guaranteed relevant research-based employment straight out of undergrad, I'd choose a gap year (or two, or three) with no hesitation. Nearly every grad student I've spoken to has *heavily* recommended taking them to accrue experience, and I see why. If nothing else I'm sure it would do a world of good for my PhD-admissions prospects, as while my academics are strong, my research experience by graduation will almost definitely be too little and/or too irrelevant for a good PhD program's liking. And I'd rather not pay for masters-level schooling if I can avoid it.

 

However, this obviously depends entirely on my likelihood of finding that relevant post-bacc employment! The last thing I want is a year of barista-ing after having put all my chicks in this basket. I could try applying to a little of each, but I don't want to waste my time on reaches that won't happen or on safeties that I could surpass with a little more experience. I also don't know if I'm just being overly biased against masters programs, after seeing so many of my peers go straight to PhD.

Thoughts?

[ballwera]

I'm finishing up my gap years (3) as we speak and I can't recommend it enough. It's especially useful if you are unsure about doing a PhD in the future or you want to get some experience ( my case). It looks great on your application and as long as you impress your PI, you'll end up with great LORs at the end. The majority of jobs are at Unis or Research institutes, so you will be able to take courses (for free in most cases) while working.

 

As far as relevant work, this will all be lab dependent. Certain labs will let you be very independent (like mine). I essentially due all of the experimental work for my P.I. With any remaining time, I'm free to do any research I please as long as it's semi relevant to the interests of the lab. In other labs you will basically be a grunt and do experiment after experiment. I can say that in my lab I'm treated in the same manner as a grad student would be. 

[Vene]

I don't think it's worthwhile to do a masters unless you either want a terminal masters or you're trying to make up for shortcomings in undergrad. A gap year (or two) can be very good if you can get research experience, if you're not sure what you want to do, or if you need a break from school. On one hand, when you return you're more focused, on the other hand it can be hard to decide to take the pay cut. So, if you know you want a PhD and you know what kind of research you want to do it's not a bad idea to go for it.

 

All that said, do think about why you want a PhD. If I were to ask you why you wanted one would you be able to give a good answer? Ideally, it should further career goals.

[mockturtle]

@ballwera: Thanks! What was the process like, getting said position? 

 

@vene: That's my feeling, too. I've had some masters students try to sell me on the idea and it's like... I don't think I'm in the same place they were in undergrad & I'd reeeeally like to avoid paying for that.

I'm planning on a career in research, and I should know if that's a good plan after my senior thesis, and certainly after a gap year.

Edited February 6, 2015 by mockturtle

[ballwera]

Applying for lots and lots of jobs. I got 1 call which turned into and interview which turned into a job haha. It was a rather lengthy process which was more of a crapshoot than anything. If you are planning to go this route, I highly recommend applying for jobs at least 2 months before graduation if you decide to go that route. 

[Vene]

@ballwera: Thanks! What was the process like, getting said position? 

 

@vene: That's my feeling, too. I've had some masters students try to sell me on the idea and it's like... I don't think I'm in the same place they were in undergrad & I'd reeeeally like to avoid paying for that.

I'm planning on a career in research, and I should know if that's a good plan after my senior thesis, and certainly after a gap year.

Were you thinking academic research or have you considered industrial? There is a huge bias in the academic world about staying there, but I've had good experiences going the industrial route. I'm actually really glad I spend some time doing industrial R&D as until then I didn't really know much about what options there are outside of school. I think that's honestly the biggest advantage of taking some time off is it shows you there is an entire world you haven't experienced.

[mockturtle]

@Vene: Well, for the time being I just kind of want to know the situation for academic research jobs out of undergrad, specifically... I'm sure the job availability situation is different between industry and academia, which makes it all the more important to figure out exactly how rough that job search is going to be, ahead of time.

 

@bellwera: Yeahhh that was my impression of the process. That's why I'm so afraid of ending up a graduating senior with no job acceptances and no backup. I'm sure I could get into *some* school or other next year, but I'm a dreamer, damn it! 

[funkydays]

I agree with @bellwera that it's important to apply to many many jobs.  Keep an open mind about which laboratory you can work in (as in, maybe it's not a neuro lab, but the research is applicable to neuro).  When programs are looking at your job experience, they are looking for your experience in basic research and independent thinking (did you lead a project that you were able to publish? Are you asking your own scientific questions, etc).

 

If you have an established alumni network, you can contact some of them to see if they have any jobs available.  Also, if you have any friends who are currently working, ask if they know of any job opportunities.  A lot of the job apps will ask if you were referred by any employee, and this is really how you get your foot in the door to some jobs.

[mockturtle]

Thanks funkydays! Yeah, I expect I won't be in too great of a position to be picky, but since my biggest worry about PhD acceptance is lack of relevant experience/background in relevant lab techniques I'd hope for a position to fill at least one of those boxes. 

I don't really know anyone doing post-bacc academic research, specifically, but I've never been much of a networker, admittedly (not that I won't try to reach out!). I don't even know what resources people use to find these kinds of jobs... I've seen mention of the PREP program but not of any non-biomedical equivalents.

[ballwera]

If your only a junior, I highly recommend applying for a surf position this summer. It's a good way to get relevant research experience, you get paid and its a good way to network. A lot if our students come out with really good LORs too.

[Pitangus]

I did a year of post-bacc work to gain more experience with relevant research skills, but my case was a bit different in that I wanted to apply to ecology PhD programs and was focused on field work skills rather than lab skills. I found job boards and listservs where PIs/grad students posted positions for field assistants. Unfortunately when you don't have a lot of experience to begin with it's hard to get a field job that's not a volunteer position. In my case this is where networking came in: the positions I ended up getting were ones where the professors serving as my references knew the PIs/ project directors.

 

I would imagine there are fewer lab assistant positions available than field assistant positions, but many labs do hire a lab assistant/manager, and a B.S. is often the only educational requirement.  However, the hard part again is competing against people that already have the experience you're hoping to gain from the position.

So since you are a junior I would recommend, as ballwera suggested, applying for SURFs at other universities, as well as NSF REUs. You'll have to apply broadly because these external research programs are often very hard to get into. I would start looking right now if you haven't because the application deadlines for these programs tend to be early in the spring semester. If you can snag one of these external research experiences for next summer you will be in a better position both for PhD programs and for any post-bacc work you may decide to pursue.

[mockturtle]

I'm working on REU applications as we speak, actually 

[Pitangus]

I'm working on REU applications as we speak, actually 

 

Nice! It will definitely put you on the right track if you can get into one. I applied my junior year but made the mistake of only applying for a few, and I didn't get accepted. I ended up designing and conducting my own senior thesis project that summer, which was a feasible option for me because I was able to do a field study that didn't require access to a lab or lots of equipment/supplies. 

[expandyourmind]

I took 2 years off to do a fully funded Master's program (Check it out it's called Erasmus Mundus fellowship for Comparative Morphology EUCOMOR) and it gave me an amazing chance to travel the world, do research, and gain much needed technical skills (embryology, stem cell research, tons of imaging modalities, and software training for 3D visualization and image processing/analysis). I can definitely say that it has enhanced my application and has put me in a very unique position as I go into grad school. Any blemish that I had on my transcript or low scores have been outweighed by this research experience and most of the people I have interviewed with have commented on how crazy of an application I have thanks to this program. This is something to look into because my program is very specialized but there are other Erasmus Mundus fellowships for master's programs that aren't in comparative morphology. I would really recommend looking into it - it's a great way to see the world while preparing for grad school. feel free to PM me if you need more info!

[ERR_Alpha]

I went straight to PhD... A few things influenced me:

1) I knew for sure that I enjoyed research and that I wanted a PhD. Ever since I entered college I knew that stopping at a bachelors wasn't for me. I also did an REU which allowed me to recognize that I did enjoy full time research.

2) I was afraid I would get too comfortable at a job and never go back. Also, the crappy economy and the lack of biotech jobs in my area didn't really help matters here.

3) All of my PIs were supportive of me going straight on. None of them suggested taking years off.

4) I got into a great program my first application season that was a great fit. If you're unsure and can afford it, you can always apply to some programs and see how you fare. If I didn't get it, I would've taken a few years to work.

TLDR; if you know for sure what you want and you're confident in your skills, go for it.

[Bonez]

I'm working on REU applications as we speak, actually 

 

REUs and SURF programs are great ways to network for jobs in the future. I am currently working as a research technician at the same institution, but different lab, where I did an REU internship. I probably couldn't have gotten that job without having done an REU first. 

[mockturtle]

Nice! It will definitely put you on the right track if you can get into one. I applied my junior year but made the mistake of only applying for a few, and I didn't get accepted. I ended up designing and conducting my own senior thesis project that summer, which was a feasible option for me because I was able to do a field study that didn't require access to a lab or lots of equipment/supplies. 

I'm applying to 9, which I would assume to be enough... I'm still nervous though  Here's hoping I get in somewhere.

 

REUs and SURF programs are great ways to network for jobs in the future. I am currently working as a research technician at the same institution, but different lab, where I did an REU internship. I probably couldn't have gotten that job without having done an REU first. 

To be completely honest, I'm more than a little hopeful that that's how it works out for me. A couple of these sites are places I'd like to work, well, forever? Unfortunately I'm mortal, but at the very least it'd be amazing to work there post-undergrad.

[mockturtle]

I went straight to PhD... A few things influenced me:

1) I knew for sure that I enjoyed research and that I wanted a PhD. Ever since I entered college I knew that stopping at a bachelors wasn't for me. I also did an REU which allowed me to recognize that I did enjoy full time research.

2) I was afraid I would get too comfortable at a job and never go back. Also, the crappy economy and the lack of biotech jobs in my area didn't really help matters here.

3) All of my PIs were supportive of me going straight on. None of them suggested taking years off.

4) I got into a great program my first application season that was a great fit. If you're unsure and can afford it, you can always apply to some programs and see how you fare. If I didn't get it, I would've taken a few years to work.

TLDR; if you know for sure what you want and you're confident in your skills, go for it.

How much research experience did you have at the time?

 

I know what I want, but I don't think that's all I need. Best case scenario, by graduation I'll have a senior thesis, a summer research project, and an additional 1.5 years of lab experience where I wasn't doing the research myself (this and the senior thesis will both be more neuropsych than my liking and not all that relevant to my hopeful career path).

I know programs sometimes just want to see "oh, this person is capable of research" without the particular subject mattering, but my sense of the matter is that an EEG study on humans in a dry lab isn't going to prepare me that well for much else. Don't programs care about relevant training?

[ERR_Alpha]

How much research experience did you have at the time?

I know what I want, but I don't think that's all I need. Best case scenario, by graduation I'll have a senior thesis, a summer research project, and an additional 1.5 years of lab experience where I wasn't doing the research myself (this and the senior thesis will both be more neuropsych than my liking and not all that relevant to my hopeful career path).

I know programs sometimes just want to see "oh, this person is capable of research" without the particular subject mattering, but my sense of the matter is that an EEG study on humans in a dry lab isn't going to prepare me that well for much else. Don't programs care about relevant training?

I had ~3 years in the lab at my undergrad, but it wasn't a school with graduate students so it was just me and my PI. And I had the REU. No pubs or anything. But my scores and my GPA were good. Granted I didn't get in a bunch of places, but I also didn't contact PIs beforehand. You just need to convince them you have the skills to be successful. Some schools want more research experience, some want less. I think their main concern is your capability to get through the program and be successful.

If you have PIs or even schools in mind, you could send emails and ask what they think. Lots of people in my program have research experience in an area (bioinformatics, for example) and then join bioinorganic labs, so the lab experience doesn't necessarily need to directly translate.

[yolk]

How much research experience did you have at the time?

 

I know what I want, but I don't think that's all I need. Best case scenario, by graduation I'll have a senior thesis, a summer research project, and an additional 1.5 years of lab experience where I wasn't doing the research myself (this and the senior thesis will both be more neuropsych than my liking and not all that relevant to my hopeful career path).

I know programs sometimes just want to see "oh, this person is capable of research" without the particular subject mattering, but my sense of the matter is that an EEG study on humans in a dry lab isn't going to prepare me that well for much else. Don't programs care about relevant training?

 

I had a total of 8 months of research experience when I sent in my application and have been accepted to my top choice school. It sounds like you have doubts on the eligibility and strength of your applicant profile.If you're truly interested in conducting independent research, go straight for the PhD.

Edited February 15, 2015 by yolk

[Crucial BBQ]

I wanted to go straight into a Ph.D. program.  When I got all rejects last year, I changed my focus towards Master's.  Initially it was because I figured an MS degree was my best chance at graduate school and also because I did not want lose motivation by spending time in lab building my CV.  I know myself and I know that after a few years working and not being in school I would not want to go back (to school).  Life is so much easier when you just work.  Lately I have been thinking that an MS would not be so bad in other ways.  

 

For one, my top choice program is a Master's program.  Another is because it may turn out that I do not want to spend another 5+ years in school, I have no idea how I will feel about it two or three years from now.  All I know from my experiences thus far in life is that what ever you think you think about your future has at least a 50% chance of changing to something else before what ever you originally thought would happen happens.  For those not aware, I have zero interests with going into academia.  In reality, a Master's is probably going to enough degree for what I want to do in terms of career.   

 

A big reason for doing a Master's first, however, is that it would maneuver me into a more competitive position for Ph.D. applications.  

 

So, doing a Master's first would give me the option to stop at an MS degree if I choose; would give me more time to think about Ph.D. programs, where I'd want to go, and so on, and; would help keep me motivated to stay in school. 

[mockturtle]

I had a total of 8 months of research experience when I sent in my application and have been accepted to my top choice school. It sounds like you have doubts on the eligibility and strength of your applicant profile.If you're truly interested in conducting independent research, go straight for the PhD.

Wow, congrats!!

And yes, I definitely do. Not to sound like a prestige-hound, but I do have my sights set kind of high for my grad school career, and some of the people I see getting turned down by these places are just lightyears ahead of me.

[gliaful]

Wow, congrats!!

And yes, I definitely do. Not to sound like a prestige-hound, but I do have my sights set kind of high for my grad school career, and some of the people I see getting turned down by these places are just lightyears ahead of me.

I get what you're saying. When I first started on gradcafe, I was feeling that I would have a really hard time with the admissions process because of what I saw in everyone else on here.

 

Ultimately, though, you don't know anyone's full story. You don't know what they said in their SOP (or how they said it -- both arrogance and excessively passive writing are sinkers), you don't know what their letter writers wrote about them (even though people love to say they have "3 great LORs"), you don't know if their interactions with POIs/ program coordinators were thoughtful and mature.

 

Even the more concrete, accessible information (stats) that people provide aren't as well-defined as they might seem. When someone says they have "4 years of research experience", you don't know if they were generally working 10 hours/week or 40. You don't know if they were working with a postdoc (or another student) or if they had their own project. If they had their own project, did they have any say in designing it? With publications, it's even more ambiguous. I overheard another recruit at one of my interviews say that her PI was writing a paper but that she was going to be first-author, even though she was only formatting the references. In my lab, first-author means that the first-author wrote nearly the entire paper and it was edited and revised by the PI. GPA varies by institution -- more than anyone ever cares to say -- and it's truly awful that some talented individuals aren't considered because an honorable 3.1 doesn't stand tall in a forest of inflated 3.9's. GRE scores may be a more uniform measure, as everyone faces the same test, but institutions willingly admit that the GRE doesn't predict success in grad school. Hence, interviews serve a useful role in determining whether applicants are ready to be autonomous researchers.

 

Don't get stuck in the comparison game. I know it's rough -- you'll see those boards where everyone lists their stats and pertinent information -- but try to remember that a whole applicant can't be captured in an online forum reply box. 

Edited February 17, 2015 by pasteltomato

[AwkwardPants]

This is going to sound totally new agey and weird, but you're going to have to make your own path here based on what sounds best for you. However, the good news is that even if you're wrong about what's best for you, you can change your mind and try something else later. I do think you'll want to make sure that research is a good fit for you before apply for grad school. The isolation, repetition, and frustration are not for everybody, and there are plenty of meaningful science-related careers that don't involve laboratory research. The reason research experience is so critical for grad school applications is not because it ticks a box but because it means you have exposed yourself to research and found that you have the skills, drive, and personality to want to do it again. The actual techniques are nearly irrelevant since you'll learn a whole new toolbox as a grad student. But you at least need to have enough research experience to be able to clearly articulate what type of research you want to do and why.

 

(Also the funding rate for scientific research in the United States is abysmal, there aren't that many jobs in academia, and sometimes people end up trapped in an endless cycle of postdoc hell. I won't go into detail here at the risk of being totally depressing, but do please read up on these topics so you can make the most informed decision possible. That said, I don't agree that people should only do doctoral degrees as a means to an end to becoming a research professor because there are a ton of other ways to apply the knowledge and skills you gain as a PhD student. Plus it's really just a remarkable life experience.)

 

So here's my backstory: As an undergrad, I had great grades and GRE scores, good recommendations (I think?), and a moderate amount of research at my mid-rate state university plus one summer as an undergraduate research fellow doing a project only somewhat related to my current research interests. (I definitely wasn't as impressive as most of the people who post on here, so I'm glad I didn't know about Grad Cafe and couldn't anxiously compare myself back then.) I took a sort of unintentional gap year (actually three years) because I was kind of burnt out and overwhelmed at the end of undergrad. I got an unrelated master's degree, grew as a person, got a real job, met some new people, and ultimately decided to apply for PhD programs because the desire to get a PhD kept coming back, kept nagging at me, and kept making total sense. And now in the thick of this really challenging experience (fifth-year here), I have that time I spent away from science and the memory of how much I wanted this to help keep me going.

 

Now, I'm not saying you should follow my crazy path but I am saying that you should find your own. You mention originally that you want a guaranteed research job out of undergrad, and unfortunately guaranteed isn't going to happen in any path that you decide upon. But in a way that's kind of freeing, right? A lot of the anxiety people feel graduating college has to do with the unknown and with the overwhelming number of options. I've always thought that the best thing to do is to weigh your options and then go for whatever experience seems the most appealing to you. That will lead to new people, new experiences, and new opportunities. You might even end up somewhere you didn't expect at all, and that can be totally awesome too.

 

 

P.S. Undergrad and then PhD (sans masters) is more common than not these days. Also, I will give you the advice a trusted scientist friend once gave me: never pay for a master's degree in the sciences. If the program is good enough, they will be able to pay you. I don't know if she's right, but I do know that I don't have any students loans.

Edited February 18, 2015 by AwkwardPants

[poweredbycoldfusion]

GPA varies by institution -- more than anyone ever cares to say -- and it's truly awful that some talented individuals aren't considered because an honorable 3.1 doesn't stand tall in a forest of inflated 3.9's. GRE scores may be a more uniform measure, as everyone faces the same test, but institutions willingly admit that the GRE doesn't predict success in grad school.

Yup, the GRE is terrible and GPA can be difficult to compare. Professional schools do it, though, and have algorithms to weight GPA by under grad institution. Only 1/3 of my graduating class had a GPA above 3.5 in bio. This was the normal across many science majors.

Edited February 19, 2015 by poweredbycoldfusion