Reputation Real Talk

[1Q84]

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/education/2015/02/university_hiring_if_you_didn_t_get_your_ph_d_at_an_elite_university_good.html?wpsrc=fol_fb

 

food for thought?

 

Well, that was a joy to read:

 

 

Robert Oprisko is among those who believe the hiring system isn’t a meritocracy. He graduated in 2011 with a Ph.D. in political science from Purdue University. He had won a hefty number of awards, published articles, and had a book contract for his dissertation. But the best he could do on the job market was a one-year visiting assistant professorship at Butler University. Now he’s a research fellow at Indiana University, a position that doesn’t pay, but, as Oprisko puts it, “makes you appear that you are still in the system, so it gives you a prayer of getting a job within the academy.”

At the same time Oprisko was struggling to find work, he says his Ivy League political science colleagues, like a friend of his at University of Pennsylvania, had no problem landing elite postdocs and professorship opportunities. “He’s a wonderful guy, but he hadn’t actually done anything,” Oprisko says of his friend from UPenn. And Oprisko doesn’t think he’s imagining this bias against him; he says he’s been told by his mentors that, “There is an imprimatur of being ‘Ivy’ all the way down. You’re the cream of the crop if you can claim to be of a certain status from bottom to top.” He’s stopped listing his master’s degree from Indiana State on his résumé. He’s been told it’s better to have it appear as if he was doing nothing at all during that time than to be associated with a low-prestige school.

 

Ugh. I need some scotch.

[kurayamino]

Yeah.. my adviser just emailed me this as well. We had a long discussion about how prestige is a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's more problematic for the humanities though as there have been tons of discussions about "diversifying academia" and what that means and how to do it, but it seems if most humanities majors become professors from a small set of institutions it doesn't matter how diverse the rest of the PhD student body is. *sigh*

 

It's great to talk about these problems and it's not as if I wasn't aware of them, but now that I've been admitted I want to try and change the system. Not just for me, but for everyone. And that makes me feel so very very tired.

[empress-marmot]

Yeah.. my adviser just emailed me this as well. We had a long discussion about how prestige is a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's more problematic for the humanities though as there have been tons of discussions about "diversifying academia" and what that means and how to do it, but it seems if most humanities majors become professors from a small set of institutions it doesn't matter how diverse the rest of the PhD student body is. *sigh*

 

It is awful. But keep remembering the audience for these stories. People like to read about doom and gloom, about fancy-schmancy PhDs not getting jobs. Writers know this, so they write more of it. Besides, who would read a dinky little newsflash about Cool Person from Podunk U getting a secure nonTT at another Podunk U? Who would care about A. Nother Coolperson from Pretty Nice University getting a TT job at a teeny Midwestern teaching college?

 

Thanks for giving me a research project for tonight, though. If I succeed at finding academia success stories, does anyone else want to read them?

[kurayamino]

 

Thanks for giving me a research project for tonight, though. If I succeed at finding academia success stories, does anyone else want to read them?

Yes please! I do know it happens.. a number of people I want to work with came from dinky colleges to higher tier institutions, only.. that was over a decade ago for most of them. I need recent success to feel confident in my own chances of pulling off such a maneuver.

[CarolineNC]

Yikes. I hate to say it, but I find this talk of "dinky" or "podunk" colleges really elitist and unproductive, even if you're trying to frame it as a rags to riches story. It's still kind of gross. 

 

I don't think these are the kinds of conversations we need to be having if we are the generation that's going to remedy the crisis in the humanities. We need to work against the system, not let it control us. 

[silenus_thescribe]

Yikes. I hate to say it, but I find this talk of "dinky" or "podunk" colleges really elitist and unproductive, even if you're trying to frame it as a rags to riches story. It's still kind of gross. 

 

I don't think these are the kinds of conversations we need to be having if we are the generation that's going to remedy the crisis in the humanities. We need to work against the system, not let it control us. 

 

*signal boost this times ten*

[empress-marmot]

Yes please! I do know it happens.. a number of people I want to work with came from dinky colleges to higher tier institutions, only.. that was over a decade ago for most of them. I need recent success to feel confident in my own chances of pulling off such a maneuver.

 

Yikes. I hate to say it, but I find this talk of "dinky" or "podunk" colleges really elitist and unproductive, even if you're trying to frame it as a rags to riches story. It's still kind of gross. 

 

I don't think these are the kinds of conversations we need to be having if we are the generation that's going to remedy the crisis in the humanities. We need to work against the system, not let it control us. 

 

Okay, I found a couple 2014 success stories. And you're right, CarolineKS, no more bashing my undergraduate institution. It won't happen again.

 

Instead of reading about how non-Ivy graduates never get jobs, I found Dr. Leah Schwebel, an assistant professor at Texas State University.She's a Chaucer scholar, and her MA is from McGill University. Her PhD is from the University of Connecticut. 

 

I also found Dr. Rachael Zeleny, who's the Writing Program Director and Assistant Professor of English and Communication at Alvernia University! She earned an MA from James Madison University, and her doctorate is from the University of Delaware.

 

And then Dr. Jordan Youngblood at Eastern Connecticut State University, who's interested digital rhetoric. Dr. Youngblood's MA is from the University of Mississippi, and the PhD is from the University of Florida.

 

These people's names are all public knowledge, and I found them from rapid-fire searching state university websites. Congratulations to them for coming from state schools and having TT jobs! 

[CarolineNC]

Okay, I found a couple 2014 success stories. And you're right, CarolineKS, no more bashing my undergraduate institution. It won't happen again.

 

Instead of reading about how non-Ivy graduates never get jobs, I found Dr. Leah Schwebel, an assistant professor at Texas State University.She's a Chaucer scholar, and her MA is from McGill University. Her PhD is from the University of Connecticut. 

 

I also found Dr. Rachael Zeleny, who's the Writing Program Director and Assistant Professor of English and Communication at Alvernia University! She earned an MA from James Madison University, and her doctorate is from the University of Delaware.

 

And then Dr. Jordan Youngblood at Eastern Connecticut State University, who's interested digital rhetoric. Dr. Youngblood's MA is from the University of Mississippi, and the PhD is from the University of Florida.

 

These people's names are all public knowledge, and I found them from rapid-fire searching state university websites. Congratulations to them for coming from state schools and having TT jobs! 

There are PLENTY more where that came from. Most of my professors, undergrad and grad, didn't come from Ivy league schools. I went to U. SC and KU. Getting TT jobs at these schools is difficult. 

[kurayamino]

Yikes. I hate to say it, but I find this talk of "dinky" or "podunk" colleges really elitist and unproductive, even if you're trying to frame it as a rags to riches story. It's still kind of gross.

I don't think these are the kinds of conversations we need to be having if we are the generation that's going to remedy the crisis in the humanities. We need to work against the system, not let it control us.

I don't think that participating in conversations about elite institution preferences for other elite institution students is undermined by using "Podunk" or "dinky" as a description for non-elite institutions because this is the language used by those elites. I also don't think it reflects that these discussions are counterproductive or that this elitism is ingrained because the message was that this kind of thing is ridiculous. I certainly only used dinky to refer to something very very small, not as a pejorative.

[CarolineNC]

Meh, I didn't read the conversation as "this kind of thing as ridiculous" as much as "how can I get myself to a job at a non-podunk school," but I can't read intent. 

[kurayamino]

Meh, I didn't read the conversation as "this kind of thing as ridiculous" as much as "how can I get myself to a job at a non-podunk school," but I can't read intent. 

Yeah I definitely didn't mean it that way at all. I'll be happy to teach at whatever school would be happy to have me as a professor, but I don't think that the satisfaction I'd find working at a CC excuses the behavior of elite universities against professors who come from non-elite schools. It may be distasteful to talk about, but these discussions are important.

[unræd]

Look, I don't mean to be a downer, really. But for every one person on a faculty webpage there are a dozens (hundreds, really) from schools of all calibers and ranks who didn't get that job, who are adjuncting, or who left academia entirely. I'm not saying people shouldn't pursue graduate education, I'm not trying to make one more post about how soul-crushing the job market is right now, and I'm not trying to take ComeBackZinc's job from him. I mean, hell, I know how awful the job market is, and I'm still about to enter a PhD program in the fall! But still, I don't think it does anyone a service to hold up these success stories as proof that it can happen. Of course it can happen. No one says it can't happen. It's not a discussion about possibility; it's a discussion about likelihood.

[kurayamino]

Okay, I found a couple 2014 success stories. And you're right, CarolineKS, no more bashing my undergraduate institution. It won't happen again.

 

Instead of reading about how non-Ivy graduates never get jobs, I found Dr. Leah Schwebel, an assistant professor at Texas State University.She's a Chaucer scholar, and her MA is from McGill University. Her PhD is from the University of Connecticut. 

 

I also found Dr. Rachael Zeleny, who's the Writing Program Director and Assistant Professor of English and Communication at Alvernia University! She earned an MA from James Madison University, and her doctorate is from the University of Delaware.

 

And then Dr. Jordan Youngblood at Eastern Connecticut State University, who's interested digital rhetoric. Dr. Youngblood's MA is from the University of Mississippi, and the PhD is from the University of Florida.

 

These people's names are all public knowledge, and I found them from rapid-fire searching state university websites. Congratulations to them for coming from state schools and having TT jobs! 

 

Thanks for the good news! I'll be keeping my eye open for other successful candidates as well and I'll be sure to try and gauge what the hiring practices are for the places I'm visiting.

[CarolineNC]

Look, I don't mean to be a downer, really. But for every one person on a faculty webpage there are a dozens (hundreds, really) from schools of all calibers and ranks who didn't get that job, who are adjuncting, or who left academia entirely. I'm not saying people shouldn't pursue graduate education, I'm not trying to make one more post about how soul-crushing the job market is right now, and I'm not trying to take ComeBackZinc's job from him. I mean, hell, I know how awful the job market is, and I'm still about to enter a PhD program in the fall! But still, I don't think it does anyone a service to hold up these success stories as proof that it can happen. Of course it can happen. No one says it can't happen. It's not a discussion about possibility; it's a discussion about likelihood.

 

Totally agree. But I also don't think it's helpful to believe the "no one from non-Ivys can get jobs" line, either. I guess the only thing we can do is go to school and do our best. I just *hate* that we are being forced to think about our careers as if we're working for some cut-throat corporation. I kind of want to say, no I refuse to be like that. It goes against my values. It goes against what I argue for in my work. If I end up on welfare at least I'll have my values. 

 

But I realize that's naive. And really, the main reason I'm taking issue with these discussions is because I'm imagining people reading them and getting their feelings really, really hurt because their schools aren't "good enough," when really they're just as brilliant as anyone else here. (cause we're all brilliant. yes!) 

 

Yes, I definitely am naive. And too soft for academia. 

Edited February 24, 2015 by CarolineKS

[__________________________]

Look, I don't mean to be a downer, really. But for every one person on a faculty webpage there are a dozens (hundreds, really) from schools of all calibers and ranks who didn't get that job, who are adjuncting, or who left academia entirely. I'm not saying people shouldn't pursue graduate education, I'm not trying to make one more post about how soul-crushing the job market is right now, and I'm not trying to take ComeBackZinc's job from him. I mean, hell, I know how awful the job market is, and I'm still about to enter a PhD program in the fall! But still, I don't think it does anyone a service to hold up these success stories as proof that it can happen. Of course it can happen. No one says it can't happen. It's not a discussion about possibility; it's a discussion about likelihood.

 

With that in mind, I'd still be interested in hearing a discussion about people working on the "margins" of academia.  My interests lie largely in the fuzzy territory that is characterized by the overlapping of medieval studies and radical critical theory, and I feel like a decent amount of people in that "scene" are adjuncts, working at the margins of academia (like Eileen Joy, a hero of mine who left her academic job to do non-university sponsered, largely open source, publishing that mixes academic and critical inquiry with DIY sensibilities, openness to various levels of education and interests, etc.: please check this out if that sounds remotely interesting: http://www.inthemedievalmiddle.com/2015/02/let-us-now-stand-up-for-bastards.html)and people who work at the "podunk" colleges and universities that are so maligned sometimes.  It made my grad school search hard when a lot of people I would love to work with were at schools that either didn't have grad programs or were unranked.

 

I agree with CarolineKS about the elitism and resistance to it -- what I always wonder is why we don't have a discussion on what we can do.  A lot of us, even those here going to "elite" schools are very likely looking at spending some or a lot of time adjuncting and being kind of nomadic.  I'd like to see discussions about taking these margins loud and active and vital.  My UG advisor, an old 1960s/70s radical feminist-turned-medievalist and a dear friend of mine, tells stories of trying to put together teacher's unions at colleges and having little success -- I'd like to think that actions like that would be a lot more viable with our generation.  

 

I dunno.  I think it's encouraging that a lot of the people I've talked to on here don't come from the "traditional" backgrounds -- are older, or didn't go to ivies, or came from working class backgrounds.  Honestly, I get sick of academics incorporating things like radical feminism and marxism into literary critiques but letting those ideas remain in the bubble of research.  I think we can find ways to balance our "traditional" academic environments with alternatives that open up these environments in ways that go beyond simply talking about non-canonical texts in the same old canonical journals. 

 

The elitism of the Academy isn't sustainable -- it's very important that we start imagining alternatives and experimenting with them.  

[kurayamino]

With that in mind, I'd still be interested in hearing a discussion about people working on the "margins" of academia.  My interests lie largely in the fuzzy territory that is characterized by the overlapping of medieval studies and radical critical theory, and I feel like a decent amount of people in that "scene" are adjuncts, working at the margins of academia (like Eileen Joy, a hero of mine who left her academic job to do non-university sponsered, largely open source, publishing that mixes academic and critical inquiry with DIY sensibilities, openness to various levels of education and interests, etc.: please check this out if that sounds remotely interesting: http://www.inthemedievalmiddle.com/2015/02/let-us-now-stand-up-for-bastards.html)and people who work at the "podunk" colleges and universities that are so maligned sometimes.  It made my grad school search hard when a lot of people I would love to work with were at schools that either didn't have grad programs or were unranked.

 

I agree with CarolineKS about the elitism and resistance to it -- what I always wonder is why we don't have a discussion on what we can do.  A lot of us, even those here going to "elite" schools are very likely looking at spending some or a lot of time adjuncting and being kind of nomadic.  I'd like to see discussions about taking these margins loud and active and vital.  My UG advisor, an old 1960s/70s radical feminist-turned-medievalist and a dear friend of mine, tells stories of trying to put together teacher's unions at colleges and having little success -- I'd like to think that actions like that would be a lot more viable with our generation.  

 

I dunno.  I think it's encouraging that a lot of the people I've talked to on here don't come from the "traditional" backgrounds -- are older, or didn't go to ivies, or came from working class backgrounds.  Honestly, I get sick of academics incorporating things like radical feminism and marxism into literary critiques but letting those ideas remain in the bubble of research.  I think we can find ways to balance our "traditional" academic environments with alternatives that open up these environments in ways that go beyond simply talking about non-canonical texts in the same old canonical journals. 

 

The elitism of the Academy isn't sustainable -- it's very important that we start imagining alternatives and experimenting with them.  

 

Hear hear! I'm out of upvotes, but you deserve them. I wish I had great ideas about how to change the system, but honestly I have no clue what the system even is. No one in my family even went to college before so I feel completely unprepared for how to change the system from within. I want to, desperately. The systematic bias I've seen even at my tiny home institution is alarming. The biases further out in programs that are even ranked must be astronomical. I think unions are a good answer to some of that, but the adjuncts at my school who have rallied to demand fair wages found themselves without work the next year. Is the way to change the system only from the margins? Or is it from the inside? Have those who have wanted change before just been outnumbered by "good ole boys"? I'd like to think so. I'd like to think there will be so many of us who desire the system to change that we can actually make that change happen.

[1Q84]

Look, I don't mean to be a downer, really. But for every one person on a faculty webpage there are a dozens (hundreds, really) from schools of all calibers and ranks who didn't get that job, who are adjuncting, or who left academia entirely. I'm not saying people shouldn't pursue graduate education, I'm not trying to make one more post about how soul-crushing the job market is right now, and I'm not trying to take ComeBackZinc's job from him. I mean, hell, I know how awful the job market is, and I'm still about to enter a PhD program in the fall! But still, I don't think it does anyone a service to hold up these success stories as proof that it can happen. Of course it can happen. No one says it can't happen. It's not a discussion about possibility; it's a discussion about likelihood.

 

Honestly.

 

I love the supportive and kind atmosphere around here this cycle but I must say, the advice sometimes veers into shielding people from the brutal reality of academia. I've seen this kind of behavior in countless threads and, to be honest, I find it way more harmful to candidates than harsh or trolly behavior. The latter, you'll find anywhere and it can be dealt with easily; when someone is eyeballs deep in debt with little to no income (or they graduate thinking that they have a shot at a TT job at Harvard), they'll think back to the cheerleader advice they got here, and probably realize that their fate was preventable.

 

There needs to be a fine balance between support and realism and I say that out of respect to all advice-seekers and -givers here.

 

Edit: I know this post comes off as quite nihilistic... in the real world, I'm with molloy and kurayamino in that I'd love to change the system. I know cynicism won't help that but neither will blind cheerleading.

Edited February 24, 2015 by 1Q84

[NowMoreSerious]

I have no illusions about ever getting a Tenure Track Job.  That isn't why I entered graduate school.  My only goal is to survive and teach/learn literature and theory.  

 

If I take on debt, I take on debt.  This has less to do with us and more to do with the maneuvers of global capital.  This is not to say we do not have agency, but we are working under a system whose moves are sometimes difficult to even follow, much less take advantage of.

 

I'm not trying to be melodramatic, but I was born poor, grew up poor, and I am poor now.   I don't expect that to ever change. I've always scraped by in life and I don't see earning a Ph.D. as some ticket out of it.  I'm the first person in my family to graduate high school conventionally and the first to attend college. This is not to say I'm not somewhat privileged, though.  And my mission, as always, is to accumulate cultural capital and use it to attack back and confront all kinds of institutions, including academia itself.  

 

If you want to know the book chapter I always read whenever I feel like quitting graduate school, pm me and I will tell you.  And yes, you will feel like quitting sometimes. 

[echo449]

I think this is as good a time as any to helpfully point out that it's possible to use your academic training in writing in order to get into writing in more mainstream, well-paying outlets, even if that means leaving academia. Right now there are former PhD students using their academic training in gigs at the AV Club and Buzzfeed (from Irvine and Austin, respectively), and probably making more money then other members of their cohort who are still in the lecturing circuit. To this end, it's useful to remember that the PhD does equip you with skills and does, if you organize your priorities right and you have a certain kind of funding package, allow you the time to pursue those skills and write in such a way that the broader intellectual community can find you. We are in a wonderful period of little literary magazines, once again, so there are outlets to begin to build a portfolio with. This is not to say, ABANDON THE IVORY TOWER, and this may indeed need to be a shadow CV cuz that's the way the market works in academia, but activism and research need not end in your advisers office, and can be extended actively out into the world as you pursue a PhD. I realize this doesn't abate many of the fears voiced in this thread; nor do i think being a writer is an easier career than being an academic, but I still think that the presence outside of the academy of intellectual life that is stimulated by us future disaffected PhDs is worth mentioning.

And here's a good recent article with a pretty interesting point about how graduate students (and unemployed PhDs) can occasionally be better communicators than their tenure track counterparts. 

http://chronicle.com/article/Whats-Wrong-With-Public/189921/

[__________________________]

I have no illusions about ever getting a Tenure Track Job.  That isn't why I entered graduate school.  My only goal is to survive and teach/learn literature and theory.  

 

If I take on debt, I take on debt.  This has less to do with us and more to do with the maneuvers of global capital.  This is not to say we do not have agency, but we are working under a system whose moves are sometimes difficult to even follow, much less take advantage of.

 

I'm not trying to be melodramatic, but I was born poor, grew up poor, and I am poor now.   I don't expect that to ever change. I've always scraped by in life and I don't see earning a Ph.D. as some ticket out of it.  I'm the first person in my family to graduate high school conventionally and the first to attend college. This is not to say I'm not somewhat privileged, though.  And my mission, as always, is to accumulate cultural capital and use it to attack back and confront all kinds of institutions, including academia itself.  

 

If you want to know the book chapter I always read whenever I feel like quitting graduate school, pm me and I will tell you.  And yes, you will feel like quitting sometimes. 

Yes.  This is what I've tried to say before -- I understand when people say that TT jobs aren't glamorous or that the job market is hopeless or whatever.  But I still cannot help but think this.  I obviously don't know the people on this board personally, but all the people who've told me that shit in real life came from nice, comfortable, upper middle class backgrounds -- I honestly think those people will always dramatize the bleakness of a market more than anyone else.  They can't handle change.  Honestly, to me, no one put it to me better (and I know this will sound naive as all get out) than my advisor when she told me her attitude towards getting her PhD: someone offered us a living salary (yes, perhaps a modest one by some standards) to read books and become as educated as we can be.  She told me that her attitude going into it was that even if there were no teaching jobs in universities she could always go back to teaching in public schools or being a maid in a motel.  The point being, I've made a living doing some pretty unrewarding and downright shitty jobs and am currently working a job that a majority of people find undesirable.  And totally fine with it.  But I could do it more if I have to, and in my current situation I wouldn't even mind it -- I have no intention of letting myself get overly comfortable and "settling in" to academia while I'm in graduate school because I recognize that to let that happen is to let yourself get ensnared by all the contradictory bullshit of the academic pseudo-industry.  I can scrape by and have no real problem being a little transient and ungrounded.  I almost want to say if you have a problem with that, then maybe you should look into something else.  I almost want to say that I would feel more comfortable moving around a bunch or abandoning academia to use my education elsewhere -- or at least feeling unattached enough from the fucking system to do it if I feel like it.  

 

I do feel a little wide-eyed and naive a lot of the time.  I'm getting courted by universities I would  have never imagined myself ever being able to go to -- they're offering to pay me to read a shit ton of books and torture myself over intellectual problems, and there's literally nothing I'd like to do more than those things. A little over a year ago, I didn't even know that that shit happened.  I had no idea you could get paid to get a Ph.D. solely because a program was interested in you.  My only stipulation is to never work for a corporation again.  If I'm teaching public high school kids, or doing the day labor type work that I did in high school again, or bumming around between adjunct gigs, or working in a library, or joining the peace corps, I don't really care -- but the work you do purely for yourself, for your own edification ("cultural capital"), is something no one can take away from you except yourself.

 

That's why I hesitate to talk shit about any program or say it's "unrealistic."  I think it's foolish to go in to this with the same mindset as someone going to a graduate program to enhance their career.  Is it worth going into debt up to your eyeballs?  Probably not.  I'd say not.  That's me though.  But anyone getting financial support to get an education that they think is valid and they think will make them more intellectually satisfied (if not "happier") human beings -- I feel I have no fucking right to tell them not to do it if they genuinely think that it will be good for them.  What is there to lose, really?  That's for everyone to decide on their own.  The way I see it, if a system you think, hell, know is broken offers you money to do something you love -- take it, but try not to buy too heavily into the system that gave you that opportunity.  Which I recognize isn't simple, easy, fair, or reasonable.   So feel free to ignore me.  At the same time, I probably shouldn't be saying shit because I've gotten in to some pretty damned good, reputable schools -- yet I can't get around the feeling that this fact gives me no real "security" in the economic sense of the word.  In a way, I feel like having the opportunity to go to a good, reputable, "prestigious" school almost makes me more susceptible to getting snared in to a bubble of false security.  

 

Rant over.  Going to bed now.  

[kurayamino]

http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/parenting/2015/02/11/the-community-collegereal-college-divide/?_r=2&referrer=

This is a great article about the difference community colleges make in peoples lives. It may belong elsewhere, but I'll post it here for now.

[allplaideverything]

I'm on my phone on a MegaBus, so unable to add all my thoughts and feelings, but just wanted to applaud some folks in here being real as fuck. As another poor person, I've hated being surrounded by rich folk in college & grad school, and have been feeling like the PhD will be the worst yet (and if lucky, TT position would be even worse in that sense, lol), but some of y'all are making me feel so much better. Caroline, was it this thread where you were talking about fuck the Ivy League? Because yaasss let's be friends!

[1Q84]

Can someone just explain to me what this "If I accrue debt, oh well!" attitude means? I don't actually understand why it keeps getting thrown around, first by (I'll just come out and say it) privileged folk with a financial support system underwriting their academic career but now, seemingly, by folks who are used to being down and out as well as financially independent.

 

Yes, debt a fact of capitalism. Is it subjugating oneself to make life choices based on avoiding debt? Is that "playing into the system"? Well, if avoiding debt means being able to support my family and not live on food stamps or be evicted, then so be it. I'll avoid debt like the plague. No, it's not worth going to my dream school if it means I'll be relocating my family to a homeless shelter afterwards. Is that selling out? Maybe. Surviving is a real concern, when your nose isn't in a book.

 

I just cannot understand the cavalier attitude towards debt on this board and it's really making me question what the working definition of privilege/unprivileged is around these parts. If this is attitude towards debt is reflective of most people in academia, I'm really not sure what to say.

 

Edit: by the way, I'll be the first to admit that I'm the "debt harpy" around here. If people seeking advice were more straightforward about their financial situation, then I would probably toe the line and say, "you need to make the decision that makes you happy and that you can live with!" because I would make my own judgmental call to withhold my own opinions about debt, knowing that this person could self-fund or have a relative fund them. But how in the world is it EVER a good idea for a poor person to take on several tens of thousands dollars more of debt? Cultural capital? Sorry. Not buying it.

Edited February 24, 2015 by 1Q84

[NowMoreSerious]

Can someone just explain to me what this "If I accrue debt, oh well!" attitude means? I don't actually understand why it keeps getting thrown around, first by, (I'll just come out and say it) privileged folk with a financial support system underwriting their academic career but now, seemingly, by folks who are used to being down and out and financially independent.

 

Yes, it's a fact of capitalism. Is it subjugating oneself to make life choices based on avoiding debt? Is that "playing into the system"? Well, if that means being able to support my family, then so be it. I'll avoid debt like the plague. 

 

I just cannot understand the cavalier attitude towards debt on this board and it's really making me question what the working definition of privilege/unprivileged is.

 

1Q, that depends on what life choices you are talking about.  For example, I took on debt to get an MA because I felt it was the only chance I had to further my studies to the point where I could put together a good Ph.D. application.  

 

For me it was a choice between debt, or continue my career as an industrial factory worker. I made a decision. I'm not sure if it was the right one but I did it, and I know it will have consequences because I will have to pay back that debt in the future, and having to pay back that debt might obviously affect my standard of living (especially if I am only able to get low-paying jobs) for the rest of my life.  

 

But so would have 20-30+ more years of factory work.  Do you know what I'm saying?

 

I made a calculated decision and luckily, it paid off, so far, in that I am fully funded in a Ph.D. program.  

 

It sounds like you have a family to support and are in a different situation.  I don't see accumulating debt as an automatic death sentence or automatic hinderance to supporting a family, however.  

 

But everyone makes their own decisions about debt.  For me it was my absolute only hope--I had no other choice if I wanted to pursue an academic career.   

 

All this being said, though, I am sincerely, and in good faith, interested in how this thread in the conversation is making you re-think privilege and non-privilege.  That sounds like an interesting conversation waiting to happen. 

[chateaulafitte]

1- @mollifiedmolloy: Eileen Joy is great and does great work, but she has the impact she has also because she's a former tenured professor. If she had been an adjunct all along, I doubt she'd have the kind of audience she has (because sadly, adjuncts = nonentities in academia).

 

2- I'm a debt harpy too and would upvote 1Q84's post if I could. I have yet to read a post from someone who:

- got into debt for an MA

- has now graduated and is on the job market or has a job

- AND is happy to have gotten into debt/does not regret it.

The only people "advocating" for debt are still in their PhD program. Folks, the difficult part is yet to come.

 

3- People who say the market is bleak are not overdramatizing it. They are realistic. The market is very, very bleak. If you have the time and envy, read this blog: http://zugunglueck.blogspot.fr/

It is about PhD placement / the job market in German, but it gives a good sense of what's going on in MLA fields.

 

4- It's hard to score a TT job on your first try on the market and it's a matter of luck as the 10-15 (sometimes 30-45) top people for any given job are roughly equivalent in terms of pedigree, publications, etc. (seriously, those who think they got a job because they're "good", "very good", "brilliant" or "deserving" and who don't acknowledge the role of chance are sociopaths. Avoid them at conferences.). If you don't get a job on your first try, you'll most likely end up adjuncting. Once you start adjuncting, you're screwed, since for search committees adjuncting is akin to having syphilis: they wouldn't touch THAT with a ten-foot pole. Also, a PhD that's more than three years old is basically seen as stale (yes, even if you keep publishing, you're not that starry eyed bright young thing anymore, you're chopped liver).

 

Conclusion: given the low ROI, only go to grad school if you're fully funded (guaranteed funding, none of that "competitive funding after n^th year" BS). Don't get into debt while in grad school (live frugally). Don't think you can enroll in an unfunded MA program and "work on the side". If you want to make the most of it (i.e., write and read, read and write, repeat), working on the side is not an option. Wait for a year and apply for a funded MA instead. Finally, go into the best PhD program that takes you (best = best fit for you + best placement record). Even then, even if you publish while in grad school, network, do everything right, you most likely won't get a TT job. Be prepared for that eventuality and start lining up plans B, C, D, etc.

Edited February 24, 2015 by chateaulafitte