On 2% Acceptance Rates - Is the (Social)Psychology PhD a Crapshoot?

[TXInstrument11]

Just got my official "note"   from Oregon today. I'm not exactly surprised since I didn't interview, but the 2% admissions rate simply blew me away. 

 

It's not like I didn't know acceptance rates were low going in approx 5% being the most common number I'd seen out of the social programs I picked based on research fit, but it's just the regularity of seeing these numbers across all kinds of institutions that scares me. 

 

Simply too many people are running after the same jobs in this field. These numbers are unhealthy and I doubt the situation improves much post-grad in the academic job market. 

 

Going four more years making <$20K per year only to end up in a community college adjunct job at the end just doesn't seem worth it to me. I'm not even excited about my acceptance to Illinois anymore.

 

This whole process seems like one long joke on how big an idiot I am for majoring in psychology. I'm honestly considering just walking away right now - better make it 4 years of undergrad down the drain than 8-10.

 

 

DISCLAIMER: (because apparently, it's needed). I am not after the lifestyle of the rich and famous! And I did not apply to schools based on rank. 

Edited February 20, 2015 by TXInstrument11

[TheMercySeat]

Just got my official "note"   from Oregon today. I'm not exactly surprised since I didn't interview, but the 2% admissions rate simply blew me away. 

 

It's not like I didn't know acceptance rates were low going in approx 5% being the most common number I'd seen out of the social programs I picked, but it's just the regularity of seeing these numbers across all kinds of institutions that scares me. 

 

Simply too many people are running after the same jobs in this field. These numbers are unhealthy and I doubt the situation improves much post-grad in the academic job market. 

 

Going four more years making <$20K per year only to end up in a community college adjunct job at the end just doesn't seem worth it to me. I'm not even excited about my acceptance to Illinois anymore.

 

This whole process seems like one long joke on how big an idiot I am for majoring in psychology. I'm honestly considering just walking away right now - better make it 4 years of undergrad down the drain than 8-10.

 

Right?! 

 

"Is this your gap year??"

"...I am an adult with a career..."

 

I keep trying to convince myself that this is worth it :/ :/

 

In particular, I want an alt-AC job, so I am particularly excited about the prospects of a program with a research internship component. It's hard when I work with people who went to top 10 psych departments, and they are either (1) still trying to get a prof job, (2) have members of their cohort who are gainfully unemployed, or (3) had people in their PhD cohort commit suicide because of all of their pressure. 

 

More than anything, I really, really regret that I have not been grooming myself for a MS in data science or something more useful...

Edited February 20, 2015 by TheMercySeat

[TXInstrument11]

Right?! 

 

"Is this your gap year??"

"...I am an adult with a career..."

 

I keep trying to convince myself that this is worth it :/ :/

 

In particular, I want an alt-AC job, so I am particularly excited about the prospects of a program with a research internship component. It's hard when I work with people who went to top 10 psych departments, and they are either (1) still trying to get a prof job, (2) have members of their cohort who are gainfully unemployed, or (3) had people in their PhD cohort commit suicide because of all of their pressure. 

 

More than anything, I really, really regret that I have not been grooming myself for a MS in data science or something more useful...

Yikes! You actually know someone who committed suicide from the stress of a PhD?

 

I also really regret not looking into data science. I'm not even sure how I would go about grooming myself for it now though.

[Gepetto13]

Just got my official "note"   from Oregon today. I'm not exactly surprised since I didn't interview, but the 2% admissions rate simply blew me away. 

 

It's not like I didn't know acceptance rates were low going in approx 5% being the most common number I'd seen out of the social programs I picked, but it's just the regularity of seeing these numbers across all kinds of institutions that scares me. 

 

Simply too many people are running after the same jobs in this field. These numbers are unhealthy and I doubt the situation improves much post-grad in the academic job market. 

 

Going four more years making <$20K per year only to end up in a community college adjunct job at the end just doesn't seem worth it to me. I'm not even excited about my acceptance to Illinois anymore.

 

This whole process seems like one long joke on how big an idiot I am for majoring in psychology. I'm honestly considering just walking away right now - better make it 4 years of undergrad down the drain than 8-10.

 

It depends on what it is you want to do with your life.  Most people end up doing a PhD because it's a field they love and genuinely want to be expert in, regardless of money.  There are bad times during it, as well as many high points…and you don't necessarily have to end up in an academic position once you graduate.  If you've gone to a decent program and have done well, plenty of companies need honest to goodness researchers that have actual skills.  (Trust me, I've seen some people for home regression is advanced statistics…and this is in the professional world).

 

 

2% is very low admission…that's pretty much what clinical programs have (or used to have).  Other areas are better, but remember 2% is per department - not overall.  If you apply to 10 or 15 schools, your own personal probability of being admitted somewhere is not 2% (provided you are honest and truly qualified to gain admission). My sense is that quant psych programs have the best chances to get in (as well as finding work) as there are few of them and nobody wants to do it.  But that's  lot of math.

[mb712]

I've really had to be open to new ideas because of this whole process. The more I look at data on how few people get into grad school, finish grad school, and then land a decent gig, the more discouraged I get. But, my heart isn't set on an academic gig. I just want to do research, and I don't really care how/where I do it as long as I'm doing it. 

 

I'm sorry about Oregon, those are ridiculous acceptance rates. You beat the odds though, you got accepted somewhere. Let the shock of the Oregon numbers wear off a little before you decide to give up the whole idea of graduate school.

[mb712]

 

 

 (3) had people in their PhD cohort commit suicide because of all of their pressure. 

 

 

 

....oh my god....

[TheMercySeat]

Yikes! You actually know someone who committed suicide from the stress of a PhD?

 

I also really regret not looking into data science. I'm not even sure how I would go about grooming myself for it now though.

 

It's like you looked into my soul!!!! I have been having these thoughts deep down inside, but I feel like I cannot voice them without being accused of being a heretic

 

I didn't know the person, but my colleague did. 

 

In terms of grooming/where to go from here, I am seriously thinking of two paths:

(1) Take calc I-III at a community college (prereqs) and then apply for something like this: http://www1.villanova.edu/content/dam/villanova/artsci/gradstudies/AppliedStatisticsGraduateInformationSheet.pdf

(2) Go into Officer Candidate School so that I can apply for fed jobs and jobs like this: http://careers.boozallen.com/job/Aberdeen-Defense-Research-Analyst-Job-MD-21001/234096700/

Edited February 20, 2015 by TheMercySeat

[TheMercySeat]

Moreover, I always feel terrible when I talk to current PhD students who tell me that they plan to become a professor! I went straight for my BA into my MA and, upon graduating with my MA, I realized that my degrees really don't mean a whole lot in the workforce... nor does my 3.93 GPA, or being invited by the dean to speak at graduation, having pubs/presentations/etc. 

 

I actually hit a breaking point the other day, in which I said to my sister something to the effect of "I wish I knew from the start that I'd end up in the same place I'm at now if I decided to half ass everything in life, instead."

Edited February 20, 2015 by TheMercySeat

[PsychandPhilo]

I think you're looking at this the wrong way. Perhaps what I say will comfort you, or perhaps not. Social psychology is crowded. It blew up as a field very quickly, is currently facing a lot of methodological criticisms from the sciences, and still is continuing to expand. That means there are a lot of applicants, and a lot of people with PhDs. 

 

As far as applications go, its a mix of luck (in the sense the causal agent was outside of your direct control, no metaphysical luck) and experience. Everything you do will get you a step closer. High GREs, more research experience, more lab experience, high GPA, good letters of recommendation, good fit with the program, good interview abilities. There is also outside variables though. Funding, strength of other applicants, professors moving schools, etc. These things are outside your control and you have to accept that. People are getting accepted places, but you have to be very careful about where you send applications and make sure to send enough. I've seen too many people here focus way too much on ranking (which is somewhat understandable) instead of research fit. 

 

You should not enter a PhD program thinking "I want the best ranked school so I can get the best ranked research program". That's utter crap. You need to go somewhere where you are a good research fit and then get a job (whether it be teaching at a smaller liberal arts school or research at a university in your subject area) that you fit at. We go into PhD programs (mostly) because we want to do research, because we care about the field and our subject areas. If you're in this for the money, you're in the wrong field and should consider the STEM fields. Too many people apply to PhD because they think it's the next step or they want the prestige, this is a wrong way to look at the process.

 

Remember that while you have to be smart to pursue a PhD, it's more about endurance and dedication. Many people, between high school and finally being awarded that doctorate, are going to drop this dream because its a long hard road with few material benefits. (Not that most people with PhD's live as paupers, they just see themselves as that. Most live modestly albeit not expensively.)

 

If you're having doubts, take some time and ask yourself if this is your dream in life and you want to do it no matter what. If so, work hard at it and accept the consequences. Otherwise, this might not be the field for you. There's no shame in stopping now, but be dedicated to whatever you do and commit.

[ImHis]

I just want to say I have such high respect for you social psychologists. Although I am not pursuing your path, I did my senior thesis on a social psychology topic due to my interdisciplinary major. Thank you for enlightening us how to be better people Wishing you lots of success in this application season.

[TXInstrument11]

It depends on what it is you want to do with your life.  Most people end up doing a PhD because it's a field they love and genuinely want to be expert in, regardless of money. 

You think I'd put myself through this if I didn't love the field or, even more doubtful, because I'm after the $$$?

 

But at a certain point you have to be realistic with yourself. Making less than you would on unemployment all for eventually adjuncting at a community college is a crapshoot.

[TheMercySeat]

 

You should not enter a PhD program thinking "I want the best ranked school so I can get the best ranked research program". That's utter crap. You need to go somewhere where you are a good research fit and then get a job (whether it be teaching at a smaller liberal arts school or research at a university in your subject area) that you fit at. We go into PhD programs (mostly) because we want to do research, because we care about the field and our subject areas. If you're in this for the money, you're in the wrong field and should consider the STEM fields. Too many people apply to PhD because they think it's the next step or they want the prestige, this is a wrong way to look at the process.

 

Remember that while you have to be smart to pursue a PhD, it's more about endurance and dedication. Many people, between high school and finally being awarded that doctorate, are going to drop this dream because its a long hard road with few material benefits. (Not that most people with PhD's live as paupers, they just see themselves as that. Most live modestly albeit not expensively.)

 

If you're having doubts, take some time and ask yourself if this is your dream in life and you want to do it no matter what. If so, work hard at it and accept the consequences. Otherwise, this might not be the field for you. There's no shame in stopping now, but be dedicated to whatever you do and commit.

 

This.

 

This also hits the nail on the head.The only thing I'd change is to add a blip about how awesome alt-AC jobs are

[VulpesZerda]

Is it naive not being super worried about my job prospects? Social psych is applicable in so many industries, which is what I actually want to end up doing. Don't get me wrong, I don't expect it to be easy to get a job. But I think the demand for my subfield is high enough. (Health! Obesity! Preventable chronic illness killing us all!)

[mb712]

I think you're looking at this the wrong way. Perhaps what I say will comfort you, or perhaps not. Social psychology is crowded. It blew up as a field very quickly, is currently facing a lot of methodological criticisms from the sciences, and still is continuing to expand. That means there are a lot of applicants, and a lot of people with PhDs. 

 

As far as applications go, its a mix of luck (in the sense the causal agent was outside of your direct control, no metaphysical luck) and experience. Everything you do will get you a step closer. High GREs, more research experience, more lab experience, high GPA, good letters of recommendation, good fit with the program, good interview abilities. There is also outside variables though. Funding, strength of other applicants, professors moving schools, etc. These things are outside your control and you have to accept that. People are getting accepted places, but you have to be very careful about where you send applications and make sure to send enough. I've seen too many people here focus way too much on ranking (which is somewhat understandable) instead of research fit. 

 

You should not enter a PhD program thinking "I want the best ranked school so I can get the best ranked research program". That's utter crap. You need to go somewhere where you are a good research fit and then get a job (whether it be teaching at a smaller liberal arts school or research at a university in your subject area) that you fit at. We go into PhD programs (mostly) because we want to do research, because we care about the field and our subject areas. If you're in this for the money, you're in the wrong field and should consider the STEM fields. Too many people apply to PhD because they think it's the next step or they want the prestige, this is a wrong way to look at the process.

 

Remember that while you have to be smart to pursue a PhD, it's more about endurance and dedication. Many people, between high school and finally being awarded that doctorate, are going to drop this dream because its a long hard road with few material benefits. (Not that most people with PhD's live as paupers, they just see themselves as that. Most live modestly albeit not expensively.)

 

If you're having doubts, take some time and ask yourself if this is your dream in life and you want to do it no matter what. If so, work hard at it and accept the consequences. Otherwise, this might not be the field for you. There's no shame in stopping now, but be dedicated to whatever you do and commit.

 

Now to find out how to beat the system and upvote this post more than once...

[TXInstrument11]

You should not enter a PhD program thinking "I want the best ranked school so I can get the best ranked research program". That's utter crap. You need to go somewhere where you are a good research fit and then get a job (whether it be teaching at a smaller liberal arts school or research at a university in your subject area) that you fit at. We go into PhD programs (mostly) because we want to do research, because we care about the field and our subject areas. If you're in this for the money, you're in the wrong field and should consider the STEM fields. Too many people apply to PhD because they think it's the next step or they want the prestige, this is a wrong way to look at the process.

Spare me. I would not have even considered an academic career in psychology if I were after "money" or "prestige". Living comfortably and actually being able to do a job that I'm trained for (not endlessly adjuncting) is a perfectly reasonable thing to desire.

 

I also paid very little heed to rank. I did not even check the NRC rankings until after I applied this cycle and joined this site.

[TheMercySeat]

Is it naive not being super worried about my job prospects? Social psych is applicable in so many industries, which is what I actually want to end up doing. Don't get me wrong, I don't expect it to be easy to get a job. But I think the demand for my subfield is high enough. (Health! Obesity! Preventable chronic illness killing us all!)

 

I think that's the thing... most PhD programs want to train future professors, and not research scientists/applied researchers :/

[mb712]

Is it naive not being super worried about my job prospects? Social psych is applicable in so many industries, which is what I actually want to end up doing. Don't get me wrong, I don't expect it to be easy to get a job. But I think the demand for my subfield is high enough. (Health! Obesity! Preventable chronic illness killing us all!)

 

I'm not either. I already have it in my mind that it may be a concern once I'm finished with school but who knows what will happen between now and then. I'm probably at an advantage with political psychology though since it can easily work outside of social psychology so maybe I should just shut up.

[mb712]

Spare me. I would not have even considered an academic career in psychology if I were after "money" or "prestige". Living comfortably and actually being able to do a job that I'm trained for (not endlessly adjuncting) is a perfectly reasonable thing to desire.

 

I also paid very little heed to rank. I did not even check the NRC rankings until after I applied this cycle and joined this site.

 

I don't think that person's post was making accusations about you, just a reflection of some application acceptance rate woes. Out of those 500+ Oregon applicants, you KNOW some of them were "hey I wanna be a doctor and a diploma from this school would look nice on my office wall...." people, even though you weren't.

[TheMercySeat]

Here's a little anecdote: my cover story is "I want to be a professor! But I understand that those positions are not as plentiful, so I am also willing to consider working in an applied setting, as well."

 

One professor argued the point with me, even though the eradication of TT professorships is well documented in Nature and other reputable sources. It was quite the Old Economy Steve moment (http://www.buzzfeed.com/hunterschwarz/old-economy-steve-is-a-new-meme-that-will-enrage-all-millenn#.pqDD2gLpp)

[TXInstrument11]

I don't think that person's post was making accusations about you, just a reflection of some application acceptance rate woes. Out of those 500+ Oregon applicants, you KNOW some of them were "hey I wanna be a doctor and a diploma from this school would look nice on my office wall...." people, even though you weren't. 

Maybe that's the case. Perhaps they made a beeline to post before reading the description, but I assumed that they were speaking to me because of their first sentence - in which they said that I was  "looking at this the wrong way". 

 

I also think the "look good on the office wall" motive would be a better fit for Ivies, even though Oregon is very good in psychology.

[PsychandPhilo]

You think I'd put myself through this if I didn't love the field or, even more doubtful, because I'm after the $$$?

 

But at a certain point you have to be realistic with yourself. Making less than you would on unemployment all for eventually adjuncting at a community college is a crapshoot.

 

 

Spare me. I would not have even considered an academic career in psychology if I were after "money" or "prestige". Living comfortably and actually being able to do a job that I'm trained for (not endlessly adjuncting) is a perfectly reasonable thing to desire.

 

I also paid very little heed to rank. I did not even check the NRC rankings until after I applied this cycle and joined this site.

 

I think you're taking this personally. By no means did I mean it to be, this was somewhat of a general message.  However, I'm not sure where your statistics are from(they may be valid) but according to the US Department of Labor even part time professors make more than unemployment. 

 

However, you said yourself you are having doubts. So no need to get defensive. I apologize again if it seemed personal. While it is reasonable to expect to make money in life, I think you are exaggerating (I'm guessing due to worry). As someone whose parents aren't college educated and were below the poverty line a good part of my life, trust me when I say that there's a bit of a gap.

Edited February 20, 2015 by PsychandPhilo

[TXInstrument11]

While it is reasonable to expect to make money in life, I think you are exaggerating. As someone whose parents aren't college educated and were below the poverty line a good part of my life, trust me when I say that there's a bit of a gap.

I'm not making a comparison with welfare. <$20K is less than unemployment benefits if it were actually possible to stretch out the maximum benefit for 52 weeks. 

 

I too did not grow up in the lap of luxury. Neither of my parents graduated college and my father has been unemployed for more than five years. He's going blind, but is too stubborn to seek disability. The only thing keeping my parents afloat are my dad's social security checks. My mom works retail. 

[PsychandPhilo]

If it perhaps comforts you, there was an article I heard about a year or two ago (I can't source it at the moment, if I can find it I will), that said the job market is supposed to be better in the next 10 years or so due to the baby boomer generation retiring all at once. Of course this is just a prediction, I can't remember how valid the statistics were, but it might be something to think about. 

 

It might also make you feel better that everyone here is in the same boat. Luckily in our field, unlike philosophy which is my other major, there is a sense of solidarity. Unlike law school or medical school or some graduate fields, we are not cutting throats to get where we are. Graduate applicants and students are willing to help each other out with advice at all times. If you are able to remove your doubts (or at least mostly remove), I wish you the very best of luck. 

 

I have the same concerns that you do, but this is the field I want and I'm just going to have to make it work one way or another. It might sound naive, but to me its determination.

 

Or best case scenario your spouse will make a ton of money and then you can just do research for the hell of it!

[Gepetto13]

Well, many stipends are around 20k a year or less.  So for graduate school, you have to tough it out.  After that, there are opportunities other than academia depending on interests.  I personally know several PhD's in psych (social, cognitive, clinical, and quant) who don't work as professors and, frankly, make substantially more than they would as faculty.  And they are happy!  Their main jobs are in the research domain, but without the worry of getting tenure (though you never enjoy the benefits of a tenured professorship.

[TheMercySeat]

I think you're taking this personally. By no means did I mean it to be, this was somewhat of a general message.  However, I'm not sure where your statistics are from(they may be valid) but according to the US Department of Labor even part time professors make more than unemployment. 

 

However, you said yourself you are having doubts. So no need to get defensive. I apologize again if it seemed personal. While it is reasonable to expect to make money in life, I think you are exaggerating (I'm guessing due to worry). As someone whose parents aren't college educated and were below the poverty line a good part of my life, trust me when I say that there's a bit of a gap.

 

I may be projecting, but TX's concerns might be more along the lines of this: http://adjunctaction.org/blog/2014/11/15/adjunct-action-report-investigates-faculty-working-conditions-advocates-for-federal-labor-protections-and-accountability-from-employers/or this http://www.npr.org/2014/02/03/268427156/part-time-professors-demand-higher-pay-will-colleges-listen

 

Being an adult with a 'normal' life is hard if your job won't even give you healthcare benefits, and one cannot really raise a family (at least on the east coast) off of 30k/year :/ :/