Your thoughts on where to accept?

[kjgw06]

Hi there!

I'm looking for advice on a decision I have to make between the MA programs at Temple and the New School. There are other factors to consider, but I'm primarily looking for info on their reputations in comparison to one another.

 

Thanks

[Hopephily]

Hello, long time lurker here. Looking for some advice on my specific situation, and this looked like the thread for it.

 

I've narrowed my options down to 2.

 

Option A is a terminal MA program that is highly ranked (top 5) and very highly ranked in my AOI (top 2). There are multiple well known faculty there that I would love to work with. I feel that attending this program would enable me to not only grow as a philosopher, but also to improve my application exponentially and enable me to gain admission into a top-tier program. However, my undergraduate records are less-than stellar so I worry that even the best MA program in the world wouldn't get me admitted into a T10 University.

 

Option B is a PhD program ranked in the 30s on the PGR. This is respectable but I know how important prestige is and I wonder if I could do better. Granted, the school really is good, has good (but not great) placement. That is, they consistently place students into post-docs or professorships, but I haven't seen many get placed into professorships in T50 schools. Is this an unrealistic expectation anyway?

 

 

I keep getting different advice from different people whom I trust and that are informed about the general climate of philosophy admissions.

 

On the one hand, I feel lucky to be admitted to Option B given my not so great undergraduate career. My worst fear is choosing option A, and then getting in either somewhere worse than Option B or into nowhere at all. Even looking at Option A shows that many graduating students go on to schools like Option B or even, sometimes, worse.

 

BUT they also (and I think I could, too) often go to places much better than Option B. If I settle with Option B now, I will never know if I could have done better. Further, the time spent at the MA program would be valuable in a sense even if at the end of it I did end up going with Option B, I will have made more connections, fine tuned my abilities, and ultimately be ready for the rigor that is a PhD program.

 

 

I know in the end the choice is my own. But I would gladly accept any and all opinions on the matter. For example, are there any of you who would like to slap me for considering denying a T50 program with really good placement? Am I being greedy? Or, do you think I could do better after the MA (given the little information I've provided)?

 

Is the MA funded? Or is paying for an MA not a serious issue for you? My answer will obviously need to be tempered with how you answer these questions.

 

In any case, an MA can really improve your application (provided you work your butt off) and so I think you're looking at it in the right way. You mentioned that you didn't do so stellar during UG, and so doing well in a reputable MA would give the ad comms evidence that you're capable of doing grad level work despite what your UG experience reflects (and I would think it odd that they would privilege your UG transcripts over those from your MA). More importantly, it seems a bit unlikely that your writing sample and letters would fail to improve after a year or two of grad level seminars (again, provided you work hard). Of course, there's no guarantee that you'll do better than option B when all is said and done, but I thinks it's perfectly reasonable to want to shoot for as high ranking a program as you can get into given the job market and the pervasive bias towards prestige. So I certainly wouldn't think you were crazy for turning down B for A and reapplying. 

 

Of course as you recognize you might not get in anywhere better the next time around, or for that matter, anywhere at all. That's certainly a real possibility, but I wouldn't assign too high a probability on the proposition that you will do worse than you did this time around after a successful year at a strong MA program especially given your less than stellar performance during your UG. 

[jjb919]

Hi there!

I'm looking for advice on a decision I have to make between the MA programs at Temple and the New School. There are other factors to consider, but I'm primarily looking for info on their reputations in comparison to one another.

 

Thanks

Hey kjgw06, I really don't know anything about Temple, but I am a graduate of the MA program at The New School. Are you getting a full ride? If not (and assuming you are getting a full tuition waiver from Temple), don't go to NSSR. I had to take out massive loans (even with a partial scholarship) to complete my studies, so much so that it might not be financially feasible for me to continue on to a PhD even with full funding. I will say that the teachers are excellent, and NSSR has a great reputation in Continental circles. However the student-teacher ratio is pretty poor and as a MA student you will not be first in line for the attention of the professors.You won't get a lot of close mentorship, and unless you're really lucky you won't get a chance to TA (no 1st year MA students are offered those positions and you will be applying against around 200 other students for roughly 16 spots for your second year). Also, keep in mind that because NSSR does a kind of philosophy that is very much not mainstream analytic philosophy, having a degree from there could work against you if you want to try to get into any Leiterific programs afterward. You will at least have to work a lot harder to show you can do their brand of philosophy. NSSR is a very exciting place, and the students are pretty congenial. But there are some huge downsides (i.e. funding, mentoring relationships, TA opportunities) that, in my opinion, outweigh the benefits. If Temple is giving you a tuition waiver, you're better off going there. I really can't speak to them as a department, though.

[kjgw06]

Hi jjb919 and others,

The financials are roughly equal with NSSR being slightly more expensive (cost of living + some tuition and a higher wage in Philly). I'd be attending either program part-time due to a flexible job situation (I'm clergy). I'll look into Temple's student-teacher ratio. That could be pretty important.

I guess the biggest problem I've been facing relates to Temple's reputation. Whereas NSSR has a very well known one, none of my friends are really familiar with Temple's department. Part of this may be due to my hopping between disciplines, but it might also be telling. Their faculty seems to have research interests that align closely with my own and I'd be mroe financially secure attending their program, but I can't seem to find much information regarding the quality of their program.

Thanks for your help jjb919. If anyone else has info regarding Temple's reputation it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[jjb919]

kjgw06, if I may ask, how much scholarship is NSSR giving you? If what you say is true, and both schools are giving you near equal amounts of aid, then to be honest I would recommend you decline both and try again next year. While it is true that the admissions process is almost entirely unpredictable and you may get no offers next year, in retrospect I think no acceptances is better than going into deep debt for an MA in philosophy, which coming from either of those schools will by no means guarantee you a spot in an elite PhD program, and will not prepare you to do anything else. I know it's hard to hear, but I really wish I had taken an extra year to reevaluate and strengthen my application than jumping at NSSR's offer with 33% tuition assistance. If you really can't stomach the notion of declining both offers, then I would urge you to take the option that minimizes your financial risk, which is certainly Temple. 

[Guillaume]

kjgw06, if I may ask, how much scholarship is NSSR giving you? If what you say is true, and both schools are giving you near equal amounts of aid, then to be honest I would recommend you decline both and try again next year. While it is true that the admissions process is almost entirely unpredictable and you may get no offers next year, in retrospect I think no acceptances is better than going into deep debt for an MA in philosophy, which coming from either of those schools will by no means guarantee you a spot in an elite PhD program, and will not prepare you to do anything else. I know it's hard to hear, but I really wish I had taken an extra year to reevaluate and strengthen my application than jumping at NSSR's offer with 33% tuition assistance. If you really can't stomach the notion of declining both offers, then I would urge you to take the option that minimizes your financial risk, which is certainly Temple. 

 

This. THIS. THIS. The realist ish I never wrote.

[rednegativity]

To the earlier conversation: I decided to go with the unranked PhD. I applied to the school not as a backup, but because of the specific faculty. For a while I was persuaded against it for "practical" reasons, but in the end, sometimes the most practical considerations are not just statistical job placements and data analysis from Leiter et al. Sometimes the most practical thing is to ensure personal growth, because so long as education and genuine attempts toward wisdom are disregarded in favor of scholarly trends and financial considerations, we can't say that we're doing philosophy. Many thanks to the earlier posters who kept this in mind! It was comforting to hear, what with all the other "practical" (read: prestige) concerns owing to application stress weighing down on me. This whole process is crazier than I expected!

[Needle in the Hay]

Hi all,

 

Wondering if anyone can spare any advice for my situation. I'm waitlisted (or something similar) at each of the following:
Brandeis (MA)- near the top
Georgia State (MA)
Colorado (PhD)- probably not happening
St. Louis U (PhD)- reasonable chance of acceptance, complicated situation

I'm accepted at University College London for the MPhil stud, and I believe I have a strong shot at acceptance to the MPhil Stud at King's College London. 

My main question is whether to accept either of the two US MA offers (Brandeis or GSU) if they come through before the 15. This might give me a strong shot at acceptance to a strong and well- respected PhD program in the US. On the other hand, I could just do the PhD at UCL (or King's if it comes through), since MPhil Stud students have the option of progressing to the PhD if they pass the course. My only worry about accepting at UCL (or King's) is that I'm not enthralled about committing myself to a UK career from the outset. To what extent would I risk this?

 

I am very fortunate in that my parents are willing and able to support me and the money is only a secondary issue.

 

I'm relatively confident that I would accept an offer from Saint Louis if it came through. It's a perfect fit for my interests and it actually has relatively strong placement, especially at smaller colleges that would be of interest to me career- wise. Any thoughts?

Thanks as always for any help!

 

Edited April 12, 2015 by Theoldpond0

[philstudent1991]

Hi all,

 

Wondering if anyone can spare any advice for my situation. I'm waitlisted (or something similar) at each of the following:

Brandeis (MA)- near the top

Georgia State (MA)

Colorado (PhD)- probably not happening

St. Louis U (PhD)- reasonable chance of acceptance, complicated situation

I'm accepted at University College London for the MPhil stud, and I believe I have a strong shot at acceptance to the MPhil Stud at King's College London. 

My main question is whether to accept either of the two US MA offers (Brandeis or GSU) if they come through before the 15. This might give me a strong shot at acceptance to a strong and well- respected PhD program in the US. On the other hand, I could just do the PhD at UCL (or King's if it comes through), since MPhil Stud students have the option of progressing to the PhD if they pass the course. My only worry about accepting at UCL (or King's) is that I'm not enthralled about committing myself to a UK career from the outset. To what extent would I risk this?

 

I am very fortunate in that my parents are willing and able to support me and the money is only a secondary issue.

 

I'm relatively confident that I would accept an offer from Saint Louis if it came through. It's a perfect fit for my interests and it actually has relatively strong placement, especially at smaller colleges that would be of interest to me career- wise. Any thoughts?

Thanks as always for any help!

 

So is the question which is better, Brandeis or GSU? Or is the question whether you should attend either one of them? The first question is tough and depends on your interests and other details. But the answer to the second question is easy: yes! That said, if you get into a PhD you'd be happy with, you should probably go there. 

 

I know that one's chances of getting in off the waitlist at GSU are good. 

 

From their site: "In 2014, we waitlisted thirty-one people. Of those, seventeen were offered admission. Eight withdrew from consideration before we made a decision. Six were denied." 

[Needle in the Hay]

So is the question which is better, Brandeis or GSU? Or is the question whether you should attend either one of them? The first question is tough and depends on your interests and other details. But the answer to the second question is easy: yes! That said, if you get into a PhD you'd be happy with, you should probably go there. 

 

I know that one's chances of getting in off the waitlist at GSU are good. 

 

From their site: "In 2014, we waitlisted thirty-one people. Of those, seventeen were offered admission. Eight withdrew from consideration before we made a decision. Six were denied." 

EDIT: Oh sorry, I see what you mean by the second question, you mean the question of whether I should attend either Brandeis or GSU. Why do you think the answer is obvious? Why would it be better than UCL, where I am accepted???

Yes the initial question was meant to be your second question.

Thanks for the info about GSU! Unfortunately the situation is a bit less hopeful this year, since more people are accepting offers from them. 

Edited April 12, 2015 by Theoldpond0

[ianfaircloud]

Hi all,

 

Wondering if anyone can spare any advice for my situation. I'm waitlisted (or something similar) at each of the following:

Brandeis (MA)- near the top

Georgia State (MA)

Colorado (PhD)- probably not happening

St. Louis U (PhD)- reasonable chance of acceptance, complicated situation

I'm accepted at University College London for the MPhil stud, and I believe I have a strong shot at acceptance to the MPhil Stud at King's College London. 

My main question is whether to accept either of the two US MA offers (Brandeis or GSU) if they come through before the 15. This might give me a strong shot at acceptance to a strong and well- respected PhD program in the US. On the other hand, I could just do the PhD at UCL (or King's if it comes through), since MPhil Stud students have the option of progressing to the PhD if they pass the course. My only worry about accepting at UCL (or King's) is that I'm not enthralled about committing myself to a UK career from the outset. To what extent would I risk this?

 

I am very fortunate in that my parents are willing and able to support me and the money is only a secondary issue.

 

I'm relatively confident that I would accept an offer from Saint Louis if it came through. It's a perfect fit for my interests and it actually has relatively strong placement, especially at smaller colleges that would be of interest to me career- wise. Any thoughts?

Thanks as always for any help!

 

 

Have that phone handy on April 15. I got a call three years ago on April 15, from SLU's chair, offering a fully-funded PhD. If I felt at that time as you do now, I would have taken the offer. I agree with the view expressed above, that if you're admitted to a PhD program which you like, it's often best just to take the position. If you have doubts about the program, I think the calculation changes.

 

I can't help you too much on the UK versus US master's-level programs, except that I can say that either Georgia State or Brandeis would probably help you do well in PhD admissions. If the goal is something like a SLU, and if you're already wait-listed at SLU this time around, I just have to believe that you'll very likely do just fine after Brandeis or Georgia State. A lot of people who go to Brandeis or Georgia State don't apply very widely. I'm an extreme example of someone who attended a strong MA, didn't apply widely, and ended up without an offer. The candidates who do apply widely are typically admitted somewhere. I know of no candidates who applied widely and were not admitted somewhere.

 

Just a note to everyone, generally: If you are still on a wait-list and sort of don't have any idea where you stand as of right now, I wouldn't be afraid to contact departments early this week to see whether you're still well-positioned (or positioned at all) on the wait-lists. Also, it probably goes without saying that, when you are admitted to more than one place, at this stage (April 12!), it's time to narrow the list to that one.

 

The rule of etiquette is: "Hold onto as few offers as necessary, and by early April (or the absolute earliest point at which a reasonably prudent person could have learned all the relevant information to make an informed decision), hold only just your favorite offer, until either (a) April 15, or ( b ) you remain on no wait-lists, at which point you should make a final and irrevocable decision." This rule permits full investigations of all offers and maximizes the speed at which departments are permitted to work through long wait-lists.

Edited April 13, 2015 by ianfaircloud

[Needle in the Hay]

Have that phone handy on April 15. I got a call three years ago on April 15, from SLU's chair, offering a fully-funded PhD. If I felt at that time as you do now, I would have taken the offer. I agree with the view expressed above, that if you're admitted to a PhD program which you like, it's often best just to take the position. If you have doubts about the program, I think the calculation changes.

 

I can't help you too much on the UK versus US master's-level programs, except that I can say that either Georgia State or Brandeis would probably help you do well in PhD admissions. If the goal is something like a SLU, and if you're already wait-listed at SLU this time around, I just have to believe that you'll very likely do just fine after Brandeis or Georgia State. A lot of people who go to Brandeis or Georgia State don't apply very widely. I'm an extreme example of someone who attended a strong MA, didn't apply widely, and ended up without an offer. The candidates who do apply widely are typically admitted somewhere. I know of no candidates who applied widely and were not admitted somewhere.

 

Just a note to everyone, generally: If you are still on a wait-list and sort of don't have any idea where you stand as of right now, I wouldn't be afraid to contact departments early this week to see whether you're still well-positioned (or positioned at all) on the wait-lists. Also, it probably goes without saying that, when you are admitted to more than one place, at this stage (April 12!), it's time to narrow the list to that one.

 

The rule of etiquette is: "Hold onto as few offers as necessary, and by early April (or the absolute earliest point at which a reasonably prudent person could have learned all the relevant information to make an informed decision), hold only just your favorite offer, until either (a) April 15, or ( b ) you remain on no wait-lists, at which point you should make a final and irrevocable decision." This rule permits full investigations of all offers and maximizes the speed at which departments are permitted to work through long wait-lists.

 

Ha, apparently I've reached my "quota" of upvotes for the day, but thanks for your help, Ian! The info about PhD placement prospects coming out of GSU or Brandeis is really helpful. Also I think what you say about accepting the offer at SLU seems sensible, especially since, as I said, the job placement looks decent insofar as one is willing to teach at a smaller school. And I probably am.

The rule of etiquette also makes sense! Thanks again.

 

[philstudent1991]

EDIT: Oh sorry, I see what you mean by the second question, you mean the question of whether I should attend either Brandeis or GSU. Why do you think the answer is obvious? Why would it be better than UCL, where I am accepted???

Yes the initial question was meant to be your second question.

Thanks for the info about GSU! Unfortunately the situation is a bit less hopeful this year, since more people are accepting offers from them. 

Sorry, I didn't realize that UCL was an Mphil. It's not unheard of for people to come back to the US after a British degree, from somewhere like St. Andrews. Idk about UCL but I don't see why not. 

 

I'm not sure you mentioned what your interests are. That matters a lot. You also mentioned your parents are helping you, but I'm not sure if that means that money is no object or simply that poverty is not a worry. In any case, I think that if the choice comes down to GSU or Brandeis, you can't go wrong (idk much about UCL). My instinct is that all else being equal, I'd favor the funded offer (GSU) over the unfunded one (Brandeis). Some have gone there and had great success, to be sure, but I personally just couldn't ever recommend paying for a Masters in philosophy. 

 

Also, just to be clear, it's not as if folks at ranked PhDs are all only interested in research jobs, and that as long as you only want to teach you will sail on through no matter where your degree is from. This is not so. Teaching philosophy at a small school is a dream for many people, including some of those at T25s. SLU is great and all, but don't undervalue ranking. Looking at SLU's record is a good start, but unfortunately you have to remember that this is only how their very best students fare.