The Curse of Loving History

[lelick1234]

I have a story that I am sure all of you would appreciate.  I teach social studies at an American school in Egypt.   One of my excellent students just confided in me that she was not sure she wanted to become a doctor anymore because she found her history lessons, which I teach, far more interesting.  I was of course overjoyed that I was about to successfully convert a future doctor to history.  Remember, misery loves company.  In Egypt, there are about three acceptable careers for the upper class: Doctor, Engineer, Dentist, and sometimes pharmacist.  Yesterday, she came out of the closet to her Grandmother about her secret love of history. Her grandmother's response was classic, "Oh honey, your not getting good grades anymore, are you?"  

[serenade]

Lol! Funny how History is seen as second-tier over there (though at times, here in the States as well). Congrats on the conversion; that speaks to your skills as a teacher, no doubt!

[ashiepoo72]

History isn't second tier over here? Every time I tell people I study history they ask what the hell I'm gonna do with that or make some comment about me not liking money.

[Savannah-in-the-world]

History isn't second tier over here? Every time I tell people I study history they ask what the hell I'm gonna do with that or make some comment about me not liking money.

I hate this attitude so much. If a major does not lead to a specific career path with a high rate of employment right after a BA, then its useless? 

[lelick1234]

I thought it was hilarious in a completely depressing sort of way.  I hate the attitude also. 

[knp]

"Oh, you're going to be a history major? I hear that's great preparation for law school!"

[random_grad]

In high school (we are talking about high school, right?) 1 good teacher can be highly influential in terms of choice of career. The student might actually be "in love" with the teacher rather than the subject. It can lead to a dangerous mistake. imo as a teacher you should warn the person and test their convinction, just as Professors scare undergrads away from grad school. You should have his/her best interest in mind, and advise the person to search her feelings and test different possibilities before rushing into a decision.

[lelick1234]

Yeah, I am aware of that perspective.  I told her I would give her additional, college-level readings over the summer.   I also told her that she could always do a history minor if she attends AUC in Cairo.  She still seems solid when it comes to medical school, but I would consider it a great success for humanities if I could get her to do at least do a minor in history. LOL!!! I don't want her to ruin her life

Edited May 27, 2015 by lelick1234

[random_grad]

It sure would be nice to convert a gifted person

[mvlchicago]

"A gifted person" as opposed to...?

[kotov]

"Oh, you're going to be a history major? I hear that's great preparation for law school!"

 

Yeah, so is selling your soul to the devil.

[OmarAUC]

Brilliant!
I graduated from a (British) private school in Cairo a few years ago, and although I took History as an elective throughout my 4 years of high school, I never really considered studying History at university. Simply not 'done'-I come from a family where the humanities and social sciences are valued, but even then, only disciplines like Economics/Political Science/Law are considered 'acceptable.' At college, first started off with Political Science, and began taking some History courses, and after some soul-searching, decided to do the obvious thing and major in History as well. 

It's definitely true that many of the people who do major in History in Egypt do so because it's an 'easy' major, which is a shame. Egyptian/Middle East history is such a rich field, and so under-developed and under-studied, that we need more historians, not less. Plus, Egyptian students have the advantage of being bilingual whereas foreigners have to go through several years of intensive training to work with Arabic sources. Of course, there's no rule that Egyptians need to specialize in ME/Egyptian history, although understandably that's what many gravitate towards. 

[lelick1234]

Omar, 

 

Hey, it's is good to hear from you.   Yes, I am planning on to enter into the field of Middle Eastern history, and I can easily say that Arabic is a tremendous barrier for many khuwagaat.  Egyptians definitely have an advantage for this reason.  Did you ever have to take a course with Professor Sherine Seleikay at AUC?  She was just offered a job at my alma mater, the University of California, Santa Barbara.  

  

[random_grad]

"A gifted person" as opposed to...?

I don t understand why this question arose in response to my post. Don t you agree that it is good to convert a gifted person to your own field?

[mvlchicago]

I don't even know what "conversion" means in regards to history for the most part. I doubt you'd find many people in the public or academia who would stake themselves on "history is unimportant" or "history is useless in science." Even if this particular individual goes to medical school, anyone who values history will have space in medical school to use and develop historical method in fields of medicine, especially medical ethics.

But beyond that, "gifted" versus "not gifted?" I don't understand what that distinction is supposed to detail? Like, bracketing the issue of what "gifted" even means, are there verifiable "not gifted" students floating out there that we normally convert instead? Like, why not just say "It's great when people like history"? Or "Isn't it awesome when people feel this passionate about history"?

It just feels like you've internalized the discourse of STEM ("We need the best and brightest students to be studying science to keep ahead of whoever is behind us these days") and applied it to history rather than ask where that discourse is coming from and what it's doing for the majority of people.

[ashiepoo72]

The word convert made me lol

I don't want to convert anyone to this field. I want people who love it and know how shitty the job market is but opt to study it anyway. Eyes wide open and all that jazz.

[knp]

Convert! I tried to find a funny picture about it, but all I got were cartoons the sort Grandpa sends me in his mass-forwarded emails.

Personally, I can see ways you can talk about reaching "gifted students" that are both productive and unproductive. I see your point about its baggage, mvl, and myself try to avoid the global phrase "gifted student". At the same time, people have different gifts, and it's nice to help people discover their talents, whether they're gifted at cooking or math or dealing with animals or with any other realm of human endeavor. As a teacher, I've found that there are many different ways to enjoy reaching students. Sometimes, if I'm lucky, I get to take great pleasure in watching students improve after a period of struggle. Other times, if I'm lucky, it's wonderful to watch somebody discover that they have a real flair for whatever skill we are practicing that day. (Or both!) It is awesome when people like history, or whatever other subject you're teaching; I don't think it's necessarily bad to acknowledge that there are different types of awesome at different times.

One would not want to say, "ah, it's good to reach gifted students, because who cares about the rest of them," but I didn't really get the sense that that's what was happening.

[kotov]

The word convert made me lol

I don't want to convert anyone to this field. I want people who love it and know how shitty the job market is but opt to study it anyway. Eyes wide open and all that jazz.

 

I want them all to go away so they don't take any of the jobs.

 

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[random_grad]

I don't even know what "conversion" means in regards to history for the most part. I doubt you'd find many people in the public or academia who would stake themselves on "history is unimportant" or "history is useless in science." Even if this particular individual goes to medical school, anyone who values history will have space in medical school to use and develop historical method in fields of medicine, especially medical ethics.

But beyond that, "gifted" versus "not gifted?" I don't understand what that distinction is supposed to detail? Like, bracketing the issue of what "gifted" even means, are there verifiable "not gifted" students floating out there that we normally convert instead? Like, why not just say "It's great when people like history"? Or "Isn't it awesome when people feel this passionate about history"?

It just feels like you've internalized the discourse of STEM ("We need the best and brightest students to be studying science to keep ahead of whoever is behind us these days") and applied it to history rather than ask where that discourse is coming from and what it's doing for the majority of people.

 

what's wrong with the STEM discourse? (BTW, you're asigning a feature which is completely lacking from that discourse with the "keep ahead of whoever is behind us" . rather: we need the best and brightest to advance human knowledge and keep up the good work of past generations of scholars). of course I want the best and brightest in my field! This kid sounds like a gifted person, and I think it's important to have as many gifted people as possible to at least consider studying history. the more the better. Let the best win.

 

as for "convert" - you'd be surprised how often I hear that word from professors. at the very least it made some lol. as long as it gets the point across, I'll keep using it. or please do offer an alternative, as an ESL person I always welcome new English words to my vocab

Edited June 3, 2015 by random_grad

[random_grad]

Anyway I think this is a non-issue. I personally have better things to do than argue over this. Feel free to continue.

[OmarAUC]

Omar, 

 

Hey, it's is good to hear from you.   Yes, I am planning on to enter into the field of Middle Eastern history, and I can easily say that Arabic is a tremendous barrier for many khuwagaat.  Egyptians definitely have an advantage for this reason.  Did you ever have to take a course with Professor Sherine Seleikay at AUC?  She was just offered a job at my alma mater, the University of California, Santa Barbara.  

  

Hey, 

Sadly I never took with Dr. Seikely, but have many friends who did (and loved her). She taught undergraduate classes called Zionism and Modern Judaism, and History of Israel/Palestine, and towards the end was Director of the Middle East Studies Center. Was very active, always attending/organizing on and off campus events and had several ongoing research projects. Many of the MES grad students say the program definitely isn't the same without her. 

 

Regarding the word 'convert'-I feel that in this context, it's appropriate. Many people who start off in something conventional like Business/Engineering then end up doing History/Anthro/Literature because they love it/are good at it always say they were 'converted' or 'saw the light.' 

 

You should definitely encourage your student to minor in History. If she's doing American Diploma  AP History should transfer over as credit which will make a minor a viable option. 

[mvlchicago]

The conversion point was completely separate; I think that the operating word is irrelevant. I was genuinely confused as to how someone could be "converted/convinced/enjoined" into history if one starts with the premise that history isn't some specific "cult" or set of practices; historical methods are found everywhere. Unless there's some de-historicizing of medicine, I literally just didn't see to make it into an issue.

In terms of "gifted" or not, I'm not arguing some issue of whether "we all have talents." I'm just pointing out it's fascinating that someone felt the need here to make a distinction between having a "gifted" person like history compared to literally anyone else. It's not so much about the baggage (although baggage is certainly present) as it is that the qualifier is pointless. Any person who does or engages history should be happy when other people recognize its importance because it is necessary for the discipline's survival. There's no argument to be had; it's just a matter of fact. 

Edited June 3, 2015 by mvlchicago

[drumstick00m]

Yeah, I am aware of that perspective.  I told her I would give her additional, college-level readings over the summer.   I also told her that she could always do a history minor if she attends AUC in Cairo.  She still seems solid when it comes to medical school, but I would consider it a great success for humanities if I could get her to do at least do a minor in history. LOL!!! I don't want her to ruin her life

 

This was the best response possible. I am of the opinion, and apparently so is Cracked.com and some published scientific studies, that doctors who know people, which includes history of course, heal people better, at least that is my opening line.