Are MAs in IR worthwhile!?!??!

[MRoy]

Okay here's the deal people...

I'm applying to fall 2010 graduate programs in international affairs and international development. I am just at the end of my Peace Corps service and it seems like the logical next step for someone pursuing a career in Foreign Service (the State Dept, the UN, etc.)...

I'm getting everything together to apply to the eight following schools:

1-Columbia University/SIPA

2-JHU/SAIS

3-Georgetown University/SFS

4-GWU/ESIA

5-American University/SIS

6-Fordham University/IPED

7-NYU/Wagner

8-American University of Paris

HOWEVER...something feels just a tad off. Is it the best academic direction to take, is it worth the exorbitant cost of attendance? I wrote to some people with PhDs and the such, and they told me that advanced degrees in PoliSci-related fields may not BEST unless one is pursuing a PhD. That foreign service workers often don't need MAs to get to where they are, work experience having counted more, or that they pursued MAs in fields such as Public Health, or MBAs, or JDs, and specialized...

!!!

So, I'm asking you guys heading in the following direction what you think about this?

What do you expect to get out of MAs in IR? Indeed a top program gets you the right connections and the necessary TOP NOTCH education for the field. But??? Why not get a JD in international law, or specialize in Public Administration or something more specific that international organizations seek out?

While I'm at it...maybe you guys will give me insight and assess my chances at the above top schools :mrgreen: ?

-Bachelors in Political Science and French (3.584 GPA)

-Fluent French, Spanish, Bosnian + decent Serbian, Croatian, Bulgarian, Arabic

-Studied at Sorbonne 1 year in Paris

-Weak GRE scores (will explain why in applications--crossed disputed border to take them)(aiming to retake and get at least 1100)

-Peace Corps volunteer in community development

-Interned for high-profile Congressman

-Will intern in the Poli-Econ sectors of the US Embassy in a war-torn developing Former Yugoslav nation

-Learned 2.5 years Arabic & worked at Middle East Cultural Center

-Interested in researching the interplay between socioeconomic development and violent conflict, international law and peacebuilding

THANKS to all for your invaluable insight on this board!!!

[Leica]

Is it the best academic direction to take, is it worth the exorbitant cost of attendance?

This is a question only you can answer for yourself.

I wrote to some people with PhDs and the such, and they told me that advanced degrees in PoliSci-related fields may not BEST unless one is pursuing a PhD.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Professional programs (MAIRs, MPPs, MPAs) differ greatly from PhD programs, and they serve to fulfill entirely different objectives. If your goal is to do research and teach, then do a PhD. If your goal is to work outside of academia, then a professional program would be your best bet.

That foreign service workers often don't need MAs to get to where they are, work experience having counted more, or that they pursued MAs in fields such as Public Health, or MBAs, or JDs, and specialized...

Yes, foreign service officers technically do not need an MA, as far as I know. However, given that it's pretty much understood that a Master's is the new Bachelor's and that you'll have hundreds of people with MAs competing with you for jobs, you'll probably need an advanced degree to set yourself apart, since I gather you can only get so far without an advanced degree (most of the six-figure "Director of..." jobs I've seen explicitly ask for an advanced degree PLUS x years of work experience, not either or).

If public health/business school/law school is your thing, by all means, pursue whichever path you like more. However, I've noticed a fairly substantial number of miserable newly-minted lawyers/b-school graduates with oodles of debt and a sense of complete apathy toward the profession they chose, mainly because they figured they'll "just go to law school" in the absence of a better life plan. That said, I've also met a few fresh lawyers with a sizeable debt load who appear to be very happy because it's exactly what they've always wanted to do. If you can't decide between an MA and an MBA/JD/etc or if both sound equally appealing, there are always dual-degree programs to consider.

What do you expect to get out of MAs in IR?

A job. And that's precisely what I got, so I'm quite happy.

Indeed a top program gets you the right connections and the necessary TOP NOTCH education for the field. But??? Why not get a JD in international law, or specialize in Public Administration or something more specific that international organizations seek out?

Because not everyone wants to go to law school/is interested in international law/is interested in public administration. And if your heart's not in it, you may find yourself sitting in your Contracts class wondering what the hell it is you're doing there.

Edited October 27, 2009 by Leica

[KieBelle]

Thanks Leica- this post has been bothering me for a few days but I wasn't sure quite how to answer it. I completely agree with all of the points you make. I would also add that it's important to distinguish between the U.S. State Dept's Foreign Service and foreign policy/IR jobs at other government agencies. Very different things. Also, you should never pursue graduate school simply because it seems to be "the next logical step". No wonder it feels a "tad off" for you- you're not going into it for the right reasons.

And btw, I find it incredibly irritating when people use the forums to brag about their accomplishments, which is precisely what you seem to be doing, MJoy.

[pea-jay]

And btw, I find it incredibly irritating when people use the forums to brag about their accomplishments, which is precisely what you seem to be doing, MJoy.

Well said!

[riz1]

I don't think it's bragging as much as providing sufficient information on the individual's background so that we can all make a more accurate assessment of the candidate's strength. Perhaps some of the bullet points could be condensed, or maybe some are not relevant -- I can see that. But overall, this forum is one of the best places to get honest feedback from people who think just like we do and who have the same overarching "save-the-world" ambitions (because let's face it, any grad degree in policy / government / IR isn't gonna pay for that sweet sports car). The OP here sounds quite accomplished, and it's all very impressive. Be sure to include salient details and keep things concise, and all will benefit.

[greendiplomat]

Right. I don't see why people are so up-in-arms about this post.

The question wasn't so much an attempt to devalue people pursuing MAs in IR, but, rather, an honest question asking whether the degree is the most marketable option compared to other options out there (obviously a person applying to IR programs wouldn't devalue his/her own degree...). I myself think that, if you want to go into work related to international relations where a Master's degree is often the minimum qualification required, MAs in IR are a viable option. If, on the other hand, you're considering other options, you might want to go with a more general degree like an MPP (with the option of pursuing an international track)

And yes, the "bragging" claim was totally uncalled for, and, again, I don't see why people are angry about this particular one and not the 239492387498237 others listing their accomplishments and asking for an honest assessment of their chances. Since internet-speak (posts, emails, IMs) can often be misinterpreted, let's give people the benefit of the doubt and keep this forum the friendly and open one that it is!

[green_tea09]

I did my MA in an international studies program and have a lot of friends who did MA degrees in IR. Also, I did my MA at a school in Washington, DC and was able to work in my field while in school. From my experience working and going to school in DC, I found that most of my colleagues had backgrounds similar to yours. You really have to go into the field because you are committed to it, because it will take commitment to either work your way up the ranks or pursue further education to boost your credentials. The field is very competitive and it is not unusual for MA candidates to have peace corps, foreign language, and several years of related work experience. It is also not unusual for highly qualified candidates with good experience and MA's to find themselves in administrative assistant type positions(making photo copies and countless hours with spreadsheets) with gov. or international organizations.

If your goal is to work in academia or move up to a director level position, a PhD will give you an advantage when you apply for jobs. Sure, you can work your way up (one of my colleagues worked for 7 years in my position before advancing), but it just seems like a PhD can really open doors, especially if you are interested in UN or World Bank positions. However, if your goal is to go into the foreign service, then you will probably be fine with an MA (though I worked with ex-foreign service folks who had PhD's too). At the organization that I worked at, nearly everyone in top level, high paying positions had PhD's.

If you do decide to pursue an MA, my advice would be to do your degree in DC or NY and get internship or work experience while you are in school so that you can more easily move into a decent position by the time you graduate. I found a big advantage of doing a degree in DC is that some of the professors work for international organizations and teach part-time, so they have excellent connections which can really help with your job search.

To answer your original question -- Are MA's in IR worthwhile -- I would say yes. I would also advise figuring out as much as possible what your personal and professional goals are and then it will be easier to determine which degree will get you there.

[Cornell07]

Here's a quick comment from our website for the Yale MA IR program:

What type of jobs do students get when they graduate?

Reflecting their diverse interests, MA graduates go in many directions upon graduation. Public service remains a popular choice, with students (both U.S. and international) entering agencies involved with international development, foreign policy, trade, and security and defense. The private sector - primarily financial services firms and consulting companies - draws those graduates with strong quantitative skills. Many graduates also pursue careers in the nonprofit sector.

Some of the employers that attracted the Class of 2009 include: US Army, US Embassy, US Department of State (Foreign Service Officer), Government of Georgia (Foreign Policy Advisor), Yale Office of Legal Council, Noble Energy, Booz Allen Hamilton, Crado Consulting, Federal Bureau of Investigation, The Avascent Group.

Within 6 months, last year, we had a 100% employment rate for the MA graduates pool. With only 22-ish graduates per year and a sizable portion who pursue further education, that list of sample employers obviously won't be very long. I also could have sworn a couple people joined the CIA...

[C_Dunn]

I don't think it's bragging as much as providing sufficient information on the individual's background so that we can all make a more accurate assessment of the candidate's strength. Perhaps some of the bullet points could be condensed, or maybe some are not relevant -- I can see that. But overall, this forum is one of the best places to get honest feedback from people who think just like we do and who have the same overarching "save-the-world" ambitions (because let's face it, any grad degree in policy / government / IR isn't gonna pay for that sweet sports car). The OP here sounds quite accomplished, and it's all very impressive. Be sure to include salient details and keep things concise, and all will benefit.

I agree. These forums are created for open, honest discussion. Though it is a little uncomfortable, how else can anyone assess their chances without listing their achievements?

Mjoy, your credentials are quite impressive, especially your vault of languages. Good luck.

[channing88]

I agree. These forums are created for open, honest discussion. Though it is a little uncomfortable, how else can anyone assess their chances without listing their achievements?

Mjoy, your credentials are quite impressive, especially your vault of languages. Good luck.

yeah but how can anyone on here actually give an assessment of anyone's chances at any school?? none of us work for the universities, so how would we know? we can guess, i suppose, but that's it. all we know is from our personal experiences and what we read online, which definitely doesn't make us experts.

but anyway, I think MAs in IR are worthwhile. and i don't want a JD or MPP or even a PhD- i'm just not interested in those degrees or the careers they lead to.

[greendiplomat]

yeah but how can anyone on here actually give an assessment of anyone's chances at any school?? none of us work for the universities, so how would we know? we can guess, i suppose, but that's it. all we know is from our personal experiences and what we read online, which definitely doesn't make us experts.

imperfect (NB that i didn't use "inaccurate") knowledge is better than no knowledge at all, and certainly means that we shouldn't try. again, what's the point of an online forum, if we're going to reject any appraisal merely because we're not admissions officers?

[riz1]

Remember that while hardly anyone on here is actually an admissions officer, some of us are on admissions committees. Many if not most adcomms today are composed of professional admissions officers and students who currently attend that school. Who knows, maybe someone in this thread is an adcomm member!

Moreover, this forum is composed of prospective students as well as admitted students, along with a handful of alumni. For prospectives, the experience of current and former students can be invaluable, since their statistics, experiences and ideas can help form guidelines or benchmarks for those applying to grad school.

Meanwhile, current and prospective students can always learn from alumni, who have seen it all and can now impart their wisdom.

And alumni, of course, can stand to learn a thing or two from us young whippersnappers!

With that said, a caveat: no one here claims to be an expert. We simply share our opinions, provide honest feedback based on our own experiences, make ourselves feel like we have a fighting chance, and provide hope to those sometimes despair of getting into grad school.

"Government Affairs" is not intended to be a cutthroat sector. All is based on (1) what you know, (2) WHO you know, and (3) how much you're willing to work with others, often whom you've never met. These are the things that will sustain our race and ensure a future that's slightly more peaceful than our past.

Edited October 28, 2009 by riz1

[Cornell07]

As an alum of this forum, just wait until March to start biting people's heads off. You'll understand.

[f_man]

Remember that while hardly anyone on here is actually an admissions officer, some of us are on admissions committees. Many if not most adcomms today are composed of professional admissions officers and students who currently attend that school. Who knows, maybe someone in this thread is an adcomm member!

i think this completely explains why this forum is so quiet relative to previous years. and this naturally leads to the question: is this forum fair game for assessing applicants? if so, then everyone has every incentive to beef up their stats, and show concern over a 1590 GRE score/3.9GPA so that when an adcomm member comes across the application, they can tie them back here and stand out as a memorable applicant. (i suppose this includes spelling and grammar.) in other words, reinforcing one's own stats that are far above the school average, though perceivably ostentatious, make an applicant more competitive.

the MA in IR, or probably just about any MA serves as a quick signal to employers that you are capable of learning some specialized subject matter. advanced degrees open up doors in different places; i think many can argue that an MBA opens the greatest number of doors. id imagine IR wouldnt provide the same broad opportunity, but would certainly make one much more competitive in a very specific field.

i would have to side with kiebelle-- far more people on here post statistics that are above those of the desired school's class average. for those on the cusp of these stats, it makes more sense to receive feedback in order to give applicants a little nudge, or to quell any doubts so they won't be discouraged from applying to specific programs.

[Leica]

For prospectives, the experience of current and former students can be invaluable, since their statistics, experiences and ideas can help form guidelines or benchmarks for those applying to grad school.

While this is generally true in regards to admission stats ("I got into HKS with this, that and the other thing"), all of our statistics, experiences and ideas can't really answer the "is it worth it"/"why should I do an MAIR instead of a JD/MBA" kinds of questions, because ultimately, as I said, that decision can only be made by the applicant alone. You have to arrive at this decision through a lot of soul-searching, for lack of a better term, and really weighing pros and cons UNLESS you fall into the category of people who've dreamed of nothing else their entire adult lives, in which case you wouldn't be asking the question at all.

As far as post-MA prospects go, well, those can't really be divided into neat little boxes and/or quantified for a number of reasons. Alumni don't always respond to surveys sent out by career counselors. The field of "IR" is HUGE, and so is the salary gap. You could get a job offer in your first semester, or you could graduate and still be looking 6-9-12 months down the line. It's all very individual, a combination of (as was rightly mentioned) what you know, who you know, what kind of skills you possess, but also pure blind luck - ending up in the right place at the right time, essentially. Because of this, we can't really tell anybody if it's "worth it", because none of our anecdata will really serve as an adequate assessment of your future prospects. Even if employment stats were accurate, would knowing that, say, 12.5% of the Columbia Business School Class of 2009 are unemployed make you more or less inclined to pursue an MBA? I might say no way, the job market's terrible, while somebody else may say pfft, it's only 12.5%, and those people probably didn't work hard enough, anyway. That's an example of these sorts of questions being virtually "unanswerable".

[riz1]

Thanks to Leica and f-man for clarifying points. I don't mean to say that admissions officers troll these threads to connect an online avatar with a warm-body applicant; rather, those of us on the forum who are on adcomms can provide new insight into the amorphous grad school application process.

With that said, I do know admissions officers monitor the chatter on discussion boards to see what people are saying about their schools -- especially when April rolls around and people are posting results. Just FYI.

Last, Leica said it best: deciding whether or not a grad degree is "worth it" is indeed a highly personal reflection; the experiences of others on this forum only serve to address the more objective or quantitative qualities of the application process. Getting a good ROI on your degree is much more than getting a solid job and working off those loans -- your degree should pay emotional and intellectual dividends as well.

[riz1]

Also -- just came across this great post on the Fletcher Admissions Blog. The question is: Why would I pursue graduate work in international relations? Click the link below for answers from four current Fletcherites:

http://news.fletcher.tufts.edu/admissions/?p=1164

Hope this helps!

[carpecc]

Interesting post.

For the past four years I've been oscillating between applying to grad school and just staying in the workforce and I've decided the plunge is worth it for the following reasons. My interests are in international development and environmental issues.

In no particular order:

Leadership cred: Whether you're applying for positions or in a management roll, people take you and your organization more seriously if you have an advanced degree. You'll have an easier time finding jobs, people will be more confident in putting responsibility you're way, and you'll have an easier time raising money when they see an MA as a credential.

Specialized skill instruction: maybe I'm being naive, but I think all the courses I'll take in management theory, case studies and economic analysis will make me better prepared to conquer new challenges and take on bigger projects. Less figuring it out as you go and more momentum pushing forward to creating awesome results.

Wide exposure: Exposure to ideas, exposure to best practices, exposure to the wide range of outstanding students you work alongside. I've learned a ton through my work, but am looking forward to seeing what's out there and learning about stuff that I didn't even know is out there. Then when I come back to the workforce, I'll know what "good" looks like and have a ton of ideas and skills ready to bring into play.

Confidence/jumpstart: Since you learn so much and have so much exposure, it'll be easier to slide into a management position and hit the ground running with the MA as confirmation of your abilities. Not everyone needs this to kick ass at work, but some people have trouble with responsibility and management since they don't believe in themselves to make the right decisions, simply because they're conquering challenges they haven't met before.

Better pay grade: I'm in it for the cause, but sometime down the line I'll need to support a family. Some companies only value your "worth" (i.e. salary) based on your last paycheck, and if you're last paycheck was a Peace Corps stipend, you might have trouble negotiating a higher salary. The more credentials you have, the more pay you can demand and the more security you have (to pay off those student loans ).

What do the rest of you think about this?

Carpe

[MRoy]

I appreciate everyone's feedback. None of this was meant to be controversial or downplay the value of an advanced degree like an MA in International Affairs. I am like many individuals on this forum who have been fully invested in the field of international affairs for years, and like them I seek to make the best decision. I am looking for a very tangible mix of theory and practice, and upon a great deal of research, I am now confident that top-quality IR programs provide this to students. An example as to why I now put great emphasis on skills transfer as part of the educational experience: having come straight from a Political Science degree, I would have benefited from a more hands on approach to sustainable development, financial processes, proposal writing, etc. at the beginning of my Peace Corps service. This of course all comes with time in the field, but the point was that I want to be certain that my MA will help me acquire certain skills sets on TOP of advanced expertise (GWU's professional skills courses for instance: http://www.gwu.edu/~elliott/gscd/skills/advanced.cfm )

I was recently told by a mentor that although she has no regrets about her MA degree, "paying back $80,000 of student loans has been an ongoing challenge." The costs of higher education in the US are of course a major factor for many of us here. It ties postgraduates down for years and sometimes decades after graduation, job or no job. The investment is worth it but one that should be extremely well thought out.

The other reason I posted this former board topic was because I had just heard from a PhD student of PoliSci that advanced theory-based degrees sometimes provide less of a certain skills set sought after by employers. It was also noted that more specified degrees may have an edge in hiring circles (MBA vs. IR). The bottom line is that successful students make the most of their education regardless of circumstances, and that IR programs spark my humanitarian/intellectual passions as they clearly do others in this forum.

One additional remark: posting my stats was purely a tool to learn of others' opinions of my candidacy for certain programs. In no way was it an outlet to brag...in fact a month ago I was worried sick about getting stacks of rejection letters like a few of my friends have. Many of us have posted our stats to gage which programs suit us and are within our reach. Doing so and receiving trustworthy feedback has already been invaluable in helping me decide on the nine particular programs to which I am applying, and I am now much more confident. Applying to graduate school is daunting enough, it is a soul search in itself, and doing it from across the world as I prepare to move from one country to another to yet a third has been an added stress. I thank you all for making the process a lot easier for one another, and for me as well!

I come from the same outlook as riz1:

"Government Affairs" is not intended to be a cutthroat sector. All is based on (1) what you know, (2) WHO you know, and (3) how much you're willing to work with others, often whom you've never met. These are the things that will sustain our race and ensure a future that's slightly more peaceful than our past.

And Carpe, I say take the plunge, and good luck!

Edited November 2, 2009 by MJoy

[Leica]

The other reason I posted this former board topic was because I had just heard from a PhD student of PoliSci that advanced theory-based degrees sometimes provide less of a certain skills set sought after by employers. It was also noted that more specified degrees may have an edge in hiring circles (MBA vs. IR).

Well, I can't speak for all programs out there, but IR degrees in general aren't "theory-based" - you may have one core theory (or theory & history) course and you may have theoretical readings at the beginning of each class, but if you tailor your degree to meet your needs/interests, you shouldn't have any trouble acquiring the specific skills employers want. Besides the core theory course in my program, everything I've taken has had a skills component, and my coursework has covered everything from SPSS to GIS to policy brief writing to briefing book preparation. That's not to say you can't mold your degree to be more theoretical than practical, but that doesn't sound like what you're after.

As for the comparative value of "specified" degrees, there are several things worth noting: 1) an IR degree is going to be pretty specific once you move past the core components; 2) it all depends on the field you want to go into afterwards. An MBA has its value and if you want to go into investment banking or small business development or what have you, that might be the better route to take, but I haven't seen many (okay, any) IR job postings that have specified (or hinted at the fact) that an MBA would somehow be preferable over the standard formulation in these types of announcements: "an advanced degree in international affairs, international development, security studies, public administration or a related field". But again, there's no reason you can't do a joint MA/MBA if that's where your interests lie.

"paying back $80,000 of student loans has been an ongoing challenge"

I can imagine that being a serious challenge, yes. However, there are ways to get around taking out exorbitant sums (or any money at all) - you can get scholarships, you can find a government or private sector position and get them to pay for it, you can find a full-time job on campus and use tuition remission staff benefits, etc. There are ways to get around taking out hefty sums, and you should always think long and hard about whether that $80k degree is worth it for you personally. Last year, there were really long threads here about whether a Harvard degree is worth $120k - some said that it's just like buying a house, an investment in your future, while others shied away from the idea. Ultimately, it all comes down to your comfort level with the amount you'll be taking out, and it'll clearly be a very personal decision.

Edited November 2, 2009 by Leica