How valid this LOR is?

[AjjA]

Hi, 

Does it matter if I haven't actually worked with the recommender? the relationship is kind of mentor-protege. I have been in contact with this person for years, he knows what I do, what I have been through to get to this point and what's my plans. He also has good credentials ( dean of medium tier college, PI, very good publication record). I contacted him yesterday and he's happy to do it, asked me to send a draft. The the other two recommenders are my PIs, so I don't have a problem with that. 

Edited November 9, 2015 by AjjA

[TakeruK]

This is not a typical LOR writer but that doesn't always mean that you should not include them. I think some more information would help. Currently, it does not sound like you should include this person because 1) typically, LOR writers are employers, research supervisors or instructors and 2) this person is asking you to write the letter (if I understand it correctly??) instead of writing one themselves.

I think a big part of whether or not this LOR is appropriate is the nature of the relationship you have with this person.

You say this is a mentor-protege relationship. Are you part of a formal mentoring program run by your school or some national organization for your field? If so, this is more legitimate. If not, then how did you get to know this mentor? 

Are there any non-academic relationship or connection between you and this person? If so, I'd be hesitant to use it.

Have you done anything with this mentor that would allow them to honestly and reliably evaluate your capability for success in a research program? What would this person base their recommendation on? 

Similarly, what kind of attributes do you want this letter to portray? It sounds like you are looking for something like a "character reference" (i.e. a letter saying things like AjjA is very motivated, very bright, works very hard, etc.) This is not the type of letter you want a LOR to be, but if you have no other options I guess it's better than no letter).

Why did the mentor ask you to draft the letter?

[Gvh]

13 minutes ago, TakeruK said:

Why did the mentor ask you to draft the letter?

This is somewhat unrelated to the OP's question, but I'm just surprised at how many people still find this bad/surprising/unacceptable. My LORs have all asked me to send them prelim drafts for content purposes (which are usually then heavily edited), which allows me to really highlight what I think is most relevant for that program. Most people I know at top institutions have done/do this on the regular, including for postdoctoral fellows seeking academic appointments. But I guess it could be something particular to my current institution :/ For what it's worth, I don't think this particular reason is one to use as a negative against this LOR writer. But like TakeruK said, it might raise some eyebrows if you haven't really worked with him in a capacity that makes sense for grad school. Better that than nothing though!

[fuzzylogician]

1 hour ago, Gvh said:

This is somewhat unrelated to the OP's question, but I'm just surprised at how many people still find this bad/surprising/unacceptable. My LORs have all asked me to send them prelim drafts for content purposes (which are usually then heavily edited), which allows me to really highlight what I think is most relevant for that program. Most people I know at top institutions have done/do this on the regular, including for postdoctoral fellows seeking academic appointments. But I guess it could be something particular to my current institution :/ For what it's worth, I don't think this particular reason is one to use as a negative against this LOR writer. But like TakeruK said, it might raise some eyebrows if you haven't really worked with him in a capacity that makes sense for grad school. Better that than nothing though!

I've had people ask "what would you like me to highlight," or when updating a letter, "could you provide me with a list of things you've done over the past year?" but to me, that is very different from asking me to write a draft of the letter. Asking what I think should go in the letter is entirely appropriate and will help the recommender write a stronger letter. But asking me to write a draft? That means I would spend most of my time agonizing over wording and structure, which shouldn't be something I have to deal with at all. 

[Gvh]

1 hour ago, fuzzylogician said:

I've had people ask "what would you like me to highlight," or when updating a letter, "could you provide me with a list of things you've done over the past year?" but to me, that is very different from asking me to write a draft of the letter. Asking what I think should go in the letter is entirely appropriate and will help the recommender write a stronger letter. But asking me to write a draft? That means I would spend most of my time agonizing over wording and structure, which shouldn't be something I have to deal with at all. 

I agree, it is tricky in terms of wording and structure -- I had help from one of my good academic friends who helped distance the writing style from my own. Ultimately it was a sucky process and I do wish I didn't have to do it, but at the very least I have the peace of mind that I know what is going in the letter from a content perspective, and I know it is appropriately crafted for that school. Usually the writer adds their own flare and whatever into it after. I don't think this is that unusual though, at least not in my experience at my school and friends at other schools. 

Edited November 9, 2015 by Gvh

[TakeruK]

@Gvh: I think that it is a sign of a weaker letter if the LOR writer does not respond to your request to write a letter with enthusiasm. But this might be a difference in field? In my field (and I think many others but I can't speak for them), letter writing is one of the responsibilities of being a research supervisor. When faculty take a student, they know that they have now committed some number of hours of their future into writing a letter for this person. So, "farming" this work out to the student is a concern for me that the faculty member does not care enough to write a meaningful letter. If a faculty member does not want to spend the time writing the letter, it's easier for them to say "write the draft for me" than it is to say "no, I don't want to support you". 

I do see some exceptions---perhaps they are from a place where LORs are not common at all and they need the student's help to write the first draft. 

And I do want to clarify that this reason alone is not, by itself, a reason to not use a LOR. I still would consider being asked to write my own LOR draft as a negative when determining letter writers but if everything else is great, it wouldn't stop me from using a LOR. But in this particular case, with all of the other concerns listed, it does add to the case of "not using this LOR".

And finally, I want to also second fuzzy's point that being asked to provide a list of points to include, or even several sentences that describe certain things specifically would be okay. For example, if you had some personal or medical issue that you want your LOR writer to address, it's reasonable for you or the LOR writer to request that you write 2 sentences that say exactly what you want to say about that issue. And it makes a ton of sense for a letter writer to ask you to provide a list of the achievements you want emphasized (especially if they are writing about things they had limited involvement with and don't have time to review the rest of your application package too).

[Gvh]

@TakeruK, I appreciate your point and can see how it might be the case that a LOR writer who doesn't wish to support you would not want to craft the letter. Anecdotally, when I spoke to my primary LOR writer about this (whom I've been working with for 2 1/2 years), he argued I would be the best person to write it since I know what I want highlighted and put forth. Now, he ended up reviewing it adding considerable changes (i.e. it was basically re-written), which he shared with me again to review. In other words, it could be argued that we wrote it "together". Now, telling him what to write/highlight, and actually drafting something for him to edit, to me, is a question of preference and semantics. Either way, we are both contributing to the letter in order to make it good, which to me is the best case scenario. 

Could it be the case that someone is asked to draft a LOR which the person simply glances at and signs due to laziness/lack of enthusiasm? Sure. But I also think it is equally possible that a professor write the LOR entirely independently and for it to be decidedly sub-par. I just think it's difficult to generalize when it comes to this type of process.

 

[TakeruK]

@Gvh: I agree! And I think we are indeed thinking of two different things because in my field, whenever I hear "student writes the draft LOR", it's always the prof just making small edits and then signing it. It's never the process you describe where it's collaborative like that. And in your case, I'd say that functionally, it is the same as providing a list of highlights and then the professor writing up a letter.

And I agree that a letter you never see can also be subpar. This is why I think it's important to think about who you are asking and consider all of the factors in determining who to ask. But that's not foolproof, sometimes you will end up with a subpar letter. But I would rather take the risk that an "independent" LOR be subpar than know that the LOR writer is not enthusiastic because they ask me to write the letter for them. (Again, going with my example of "student writing a letter", not your experience).

I agree that it is difficult to generalize and I do not mean to. I do think avoiding LOR writers that ask you to write your own letter is useful advice in my field, but it seems like coauthoring a LOR is common in many others. But although I've experienced a few different application cycles at different levels in my field, I can't say that I've experienced it all either! I think your example is the first case where I hear of a student and faculty member co-writing a LOR :)

[Gvh]

Yay! I'm glad we could see eye-to-eye, @TakeruK haha.  Sorry OP for taking over your thread...

Edited November 10, 2015 by Gvh

[AjjA]

Now I'm in a bit of conundrum 

 

I have three options for the third letter, each one seems worse than the other : 

1- LOR from someone whom I haven't worked with >>> But he has good credentials. 

2- LOR from postdoc who supervised me, his impact factor is 23 >> But the 2nd recommender is the PI of that exact lab. 

3- LOR from a clinician, whom I rotate with for couple of months >> It's been very long since I contact him, he doesn't have any research background. 

 

There is noway to have letter from my school, it's foreign school, research there is zero, faculty have no credentials at all, and finally we had huge class ( 1800 student), they give the same letter for every one. 

[Gvh]

If the postdoc is in the same lab as the PI (who is also your other option), could you not have the postdoc write the letter and have it co-signed by the PI?

[TakeruK]

I think out of your three options for letter #3, you should go with the LOR from the postdoc from the LOR#2's lab. It's not great to have two LORs from the same lab, but it's not that bad. It's better than #1 (unless #1 has some other professional/academic relationship with you) and certainly much better than #3. 

Things like "credentials" and "impact factor" do not really matter as much as it sounds like you are implying them to be (by focusing on these aspects instead of how much they know you). The content of the letter is much more important than the importance of the reviewer (but both are important, yes).