Program Fit

[prculus]

I've applied to several programs in history this application season; broadly speaking, I'm interested in Byzantine and early Islamic history. I have a 3.99 cumGPA with majors in Classics and Near Eastern Studies, and a minor in History from a top-20 public. I also have a research-level proficiency in Greek, Arabic, Latin, and have studied Armenian, Persian, and Syriac, all of which I'm told are important for my fields of study. However, my GRE scores are somewhat low (V164/Q148/AW5.5), esp the quant portion.

One program I've applied to is a top-5 in history. I've applied there mainly because of program fit; my research interests align almost exactly with 3 of the department's faculty. That's the good news. The bad part is that my research interests are so niche that I think I'll have trouble finding a program elsewhere. 

My question is, does program fit generally trump factors like poor GRE scores, etc., in the admissions process?

Edited January 11, 2016 by prculus

[stillalivetui]

I personally don't think your GRE scores are weak. In fact, they are quite competitive, so don't sweat it. 

[prculus]

Yeah, I guess they're not terrible, but I was just curious how much weight program fit carries in admissions, esp to elite programs.

[stillalivetui]

If anything, fit is the number one factor with all programs, elite and lower ranked ones included. 

[ashiepoo72]

Quant score matters if you do quantitative history. Your verbal is plenty competitive. GRE is rumored to be the least important factor in admissions--if your verbal is abysmal, it'll raise a red flag, but a perfect score won't get you in either. I'd aim for 90th+ on verbal, but I doubt a score in the 80s will keep a strong candidate with strong research experience, GPA and a great statement and writing sample out.

Fit is huge, however you need to prove you fit in a rock-solid statement of purpose.

[prculus]

1 hour ago, ashiepoo72 said:

Quant score matters if you do quantitative history. Your verbal is plenty competitive. GRE is rumored to be the least important factor in admissions--if your verbal is abysmal, it'll raise a red flag, but a perfect score won't get you in either. I'd aim for 90th+ on verbal, but I doubt a score in the 80s will keep a strong candidate with strong research experience, GPA and a great statement and writing sample out.

Fit is huge, however you need to prove you fit in a rock-solid statement of purpose.

Yes, but then there's this: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/01/06/new-book-reveals-how-elite-phd-admissions-committees-review-candidates

The article, which reviews the book and its research, indicates that GRE scores are used in crazy ways by admissions committees, particularly elite programs.

Edited January 11, 2016 by prculus

[TMP]

Your languages >>>>>> GRE, honestly.  It's not everyday that such an application with multiple language skills like yours comes around.  Especially for that time period AND location.  My Ottoman colleagues in my program would kill for your linguistic abilities

[ashiepoo72]

Something above 90th percentile is not going to be near the cut off.

I got a 165V and 151Q and got into plenty of programs.

If your verbal was below 85th percentile I would retake, but if it's above you should be focusing more on the written components of the application and not worrying about your strong GRE, especially with your extensive language skills and high GPA.

[FemmeFatale]

my school (a state school) didn't even require the GRE on the application, but i took it anyway and included them.  since my undergrad GPA wasn't so stellar, i think the fact that i had moderately good scores on the GRE was what got me in.

[DGrayson]

Coming from an outside discipline, I can tell you that GRE scores do matter for certain programs. GRE Quant scores are a huge indicator in Economics and are used to disqualify applications in the first round only. Talking with professors at UT Austin I've learned that for History GRE scores are used exactly how ashiepoo said they are. 

[ashiepoo72]

Yeah, I've heard it's way more important in science disciplines and anything that heavily uses quantitative methods, because apparently the math portion is a reasonable expression of basic knowledge (not for me, because I suck, but you know what I mean). I've also heard some science disciplines look pretty closely at the verbal score, too.

I know for a fact some history departments care about the GRE. Generally it's a threshold (I won't pretend to know what the magic number is) but for many programs it's used for funding purposes, which means that even if the department couldn't care less about it, the university does and it behooves you to get great scores.

I'm just gonna say, I don't have a perfect undergrad record, got a solid but not perfect GPA in my MA, and had a good verbal but lackluster quant score on the GRE. For some reason that continues to boggle my mind, a bunch of places decided to accept and fund me anyway. My conclusion is that my obsessive revisions on the sample and statement and research on fit paid off. I tell this tale for those applicants who didn't ace everything their whole lives and are now looking at every B on their record like it's an executioner. Fit and writing/research ability are the things that get you into programs. Grades and GREs are hurdles you need to jump. They have to be high enough to make the jump, but that doesn't mean they have to be perfect.

[mvlchicago]

Granted, that I am someone who had the advantage of a good undergrad name brand, I can confirm that my B+ GPA did not keep me out of PhD programs. If you flunk the GRE, I would be concerned. If you had a reasonable score of the material that reflects competence (90s in the writing/verbal, 70s-80s in the math) you'll be fine. Move on to the stuff you actually can control (Writing Sample and Statement of Purpose.)

[prculus]

On 1/14/2016 at 3:01 PM, mvlchicago said:

Granted, that I am someone who had the advantage of a good undergrad name brand, I can confirm that my B+ GPA did not keep me out of PhD programs. If you flunk the GRE, I would be concerned. If you had a reasonable score of the material that reflects competence (90s in the writing/verbal, 70s-80s in the math) you'll be fine. Move on to the stuff you actually can control (Writing Sample and Statement of Purpose.)

Sadly, I did not achieve a score on the math portion that reflects a high degree of competence (148 is in the 30s), but my intended area of research is not quantitative (also, just an FYI, 70s-80s in the math would equate to a 159-164 score, which is something I very rarely see listed on this site for successful applicants, even in the most elite history grad programs). I'm satisfied with a 164V (94th percentile) and a 5.5AW (98th percentile) score, but I'll just retake the test if I don't get into any of the PhD programs I've applied to.