Disinterested Advisor

[sjb1984]

Hi All,

I am a first year PhD student at a top ranked program in the humanities.* I am having concerns about my relationship with my advisor. Simply put, they do not seem the least bit interested in my research. Our topics overlap significantly, although my very specific research focus is different. We have met three times and each time I am fairly certain said advisor was just ticking off a box. I took their course in the fall and they did not read the 30pg research paper that I wrote, which contained the first draft of the  argument I hope my dissertation will make within the theoretical framework I hope to use (I came in with an MA so I am further along than some first year students). The only feedback I got was "It's good work." When I tried to talk about the argument, the sources, methodology, etc, it was like pulling teeth, and I got nothing out of it.

I am a fairly independent student. I do not accept my advisor to hold my hand, line edit my work, find my sources, or "fix" weak spots in my argument...what I did expect, however, is that my advisor would read the things I write (or if busy would let me know and read it at some later point), be interested in the questions I am asking, and would push me to develop my argument, pointing out where it's weak/underdeveloped, and generally talk with me about my research. I struggle with a lot of things in grad school, but the strength I know I have is writing. I know the work I turn in is "good," but it's not that good, and I want it to be better. That's why I came to this program and this advisor. All this being said, I do think this advisor is efficient, and I will move through the program quickly. I wonder, though, is moving through quickly a good thing if the trade-off is an advisor who just signs off on whatever I put in front of them?

So, my questions. What is your relationship with your advisor like? Do they read your work? Talk with you about your research?

For those further along in their programs, would you consider such an advisor a detriment to long-term career prospects? I am concerned the recommendation from an eminent scholar won't mean too much if its lukewarm, or if the dissertation is "good."

Has anyone here switched advisors? For me, it would mean radically rethinking my dissertation, likely changing fields, and beginning a new project as this advisor is the only person who could chair my committee on my present topic. Honestly, the feeling that my work isn't that interesting to my advisor has me wondering if perhaps its just not that interesting...I am finding myself getting excited about a different project with an equally excited faculty member, but I am unsure if I should just stick with what I already have.

Also, for what it's worth I got the impression during the admissions process that this advisor was not super interested in my research, but pretty much everyone in my MA program, every mentor I have had along the way, told me I would be crazy to turn down an offer from a top ranked program in such an abysmal job market.

Thanks for all your thoughts in advance!

*I have another account on here that I regularly post in, but this is a sensitive topic and I want to be as close to anonymous as possible.

[rising_star]

I'm not in your field, sjb, so you may want to take all of this with a grain of salt. My MA advisor was awesome, always read everything I gave them, and turned things around quickly (as in, read the full first draft of my MA thesis having not read any chapters and got me detailed comments in under two weeks). We worked well together and were pretty open in our communication about needs and expectations. It was my advisor's idea for me to submit the entire document at once, rather than in chapters, and I agreed because I'd already decided on a slightly atypical (at least for my field) structure. Was it always sunshine and roses? Of course not but, it worked for me at the time. 

My PhD advisor sounds a bit like yours in some ways (well-renowned scholar, not exactly in my area but close, etc.). My PhD advisor has a habit of not reading things until the last minute or when you tell him you need them. It's the way he works with all of his students. The more senior students told me this early on so I never took it personally or as a sign he didn't care about me or my research. Typically, he and I would meet maybe twice (sometimes only once) a semester to discuss my research, in addition to a couple of meetings a semester as a lab (so with all of his students present). But, I never doubted that I was working with the right person. Why? Because I knew that, when push came to shove, he would go to bat for me and help me finish. If that meant heading off finicky committee members, he did it. If it meant reading my entire dissertation while on an international flight, he did it. If it meant writing me dozens of recommendation letters, he did it. Early on, like you, I worried about whether those letters might be lukewarm since he didn't really know my work, what I wanted to do, etc. But, you know what? Those letters from my first year on have helped me get grants, fellowships, and jobs. I don't know what they say (I've always waived my right) but, as a grad student, I reviewed a travel grant app that my advisor had written the rec letter for. And that rec letter was absolutely glowing and, because I know both of them, I also know that grad student was not one of his pet students or favorites by any means.

My advice to you is to not even think about changing advisors or topics at this stage. It has been a semester, one of about 10 you're going to have in your program. If you're passionate about your topic, then that's the most important thing. Instead, you really should take some time to think about what it is you want to study and why, why you picked this advisor, and whether this advising relationship is salvageable. It could be that you and your advisor need to get on the same page about expectations (what you can expect from them, what they're expecting from you). You should also consider forming a working group with other graduate students where you could get insights about your argument and bounce research ideas off one another. Don't make any rash decisions. Instead, figure out what you need, then communicate this clearly to your advisor. Once you have their response (that is, are they willing to give you what you need or meet you in the middle?), then you can decide on next steps. Keep us posted!

[fuzzylogician]

I think this is mostly a question of who you are as a researcher and what your needs are of the advising relationship. In my opinion, having a strong advising relationship that you are happy with is absolutely crucial for maintaining your health and being successful in graduate school.

Some people, like rising_star, are happy with the hands-off approach, and would therefore be happy with an advisor like yours, OP. I personally enjoyed meeting with my advisors on a regular basis, usually once a week or every other week, and I could count on them to read and comment on my ongoing work, conference abstracts, etc. For me, this was a much better arrangement, just based on my personality and theirs. I can also count on my advisors to write numerous glowing (I am told by those who read them) letters of recommendation for grants, jobs, etc.

I don't think any particular advising style is better than any others, I think it's all about compatibility between how you work best and what your advisor can give you. 

Since it's only been a semester, it might be worth giving it more time. That said, if this is how the professor operates with all of their students, and you aren't happy with that, then if it were me, I would consider switching to a new advisor soon. Since you're only in your first year, you have more than enough time to change the direction of your research. The topic you choose should still be something you care about, but personally if I had to choose between my favorite topic with an advisor I don't quite get along with and a less favorite (but still interesting!) topic with an advisor I enjoy talking to, I would choose the latter. Your dissertation research will be the first step in a long research career, it's not the final thing you get to say. You can grow and expand in different directions post-PhD, and to me, being happy means being more successful, so having a better chance of getting to pursue all those other ideas. 

So, I would think a possible next step is to talk to more senior students of your advisor's about how s/he operates with them and whether they enjoy it, and similarly, if you can, with senior students of the advisor you're considering switching to. Also, if you're unsure about your compatibility with this other advisor, this is something to figure out before you make any drastic moves. Then, you'll need to sit down and think about what you need out of your advisor, and what happens if s/he can't give you some of the things you'd ideally like to have, and at the same time about whether the topics you'd work on with each potential advisor are exciting and appealing to you. If you can't have everything, you'll need to choose what matters more. 

[sjb1984]

I wanted to thank you both for your thoughtful and very helpful responses and also respond a bit.

One of the issues is my advisor has no other grad students in the department at present and, to the best of my knowledge, has had less than 5 in their nearly 20 years on the faculty. Now, I see that might have been a red flag. So my concern is I have no way of knowing if this is typical behavior and how it will (or will not) impact my future. Part of my confusion, I think, stems from the fact that I did ask my advisor during the admission process what their mentoring style was. They responded they tended to be hyper-involved, to the point of annoying advisees. I responded I would prefer such an advisor and would welcome any and all comments/suggestions/etc. Now, I think we were talking past each other. I think my advisor is hyper-involved, but with the pragmatic parts of getting students through the programs (which I do appreciate), and hands off with the research, or as I expressed, perhaps just not that interested.

It's confusing because I have a gut feeling that something is off, but since it's not a *bad* advising relationship, I am not ignored or belittled...and I have a pretty solid timeline for getting through the program, it's tempting to just set aside that feeling and forge ahead. But the path of least resistance is, at least in my experience, never the best one to take...

In any case, I am writing a research paper on the other topic I've identified with the advisor who would replace my present one, and I also, again, explicitly asked my advisor for some feedback on the paper I wrote. I am basically exploring the possibility of moving on, while still maintaining and furthering my present research.

Thanks Again!

 

[rising_star]

Have you actually sat down with your advisor and talked about this? Because it could be that you think you're talking past each other and your advisor doesn't and that a simple conversation would clear some of this up. 

[random_grad]

On 1/16/2016 at 3:42 PM, sjb1984 said:

The only feedback I got was "It's good work."

you certainly cannot keep pushing your advisor to give you more feedback if he/she keeps being reluctant.

in general, some say it is good to show a paper to several profs in your subfield. so consider doing that if you need feedback, or present your work at a graduate conference locally. otherwise consider letting go and moving to another project. perhaps your advisor wants you to explore more broadly before settling on a theme? what is the usual trajectory in that regard in your field? in my field, for example, students may change direction of their research significantly during the time of coursework. you could ask if that's what your advisor envisions you would do. you don't wanna be your advisor's clone, right?

2 hours ago, sjb1984 said:

my advisor has no other grad students in the department at present and, to the best of my knowledge, has had less than 5 in their nearly 20 years on the faculty.

consider reaching out to his/her past advisees and ask them about their experience and for their advice.

before making any drastic moves, think about some other aspects: does you advisor respond fast for requests of letters of recommendation? who else would be on your committee who could de facto replace your advisor?

as long as you have someone to give you the little amount of feedback that you seem to require, you should be able to improve, publish in good journals and finish well. with the experience of minimal supervision you will be all the stronger later in the game when you need to produce work by yourself!

Edited January 29, 2016 by random_grad

[sjb1984]

I guess I am not sure how to approach that sort of conversation. It seemed organic to prepare specific talking points, but that fell so flat: I have done everything I can think of to spark a conversation short of saying "I need to talk specifically about my research or this PhD is not going to end well." And I have no idea how to say "Please read my papers" without sounding like a jerk. You know?

[rising_star]

Don't beat around the bush. Say, "I need to talk to you specifically about my research." And then have a list of specific things. Hell, send an agenda in advance if you're worried she'll be blindsided. If you aren't willing to have a direct conversation about your career now, when will you be?

[random_grad]

6 minutes ago, sjb1984 said:

And I have no idea how to say "Please read my papers" without sounding like a jerk. You know?

it is definitely tough! that's why I think talking to those who finished with this advisor could be helpful for reaching a decision:

- "how often did you get feedback on your writing?" "how specific was it?" (=does it get better at the dissertation stage, or is he/she still not reading anything?)

- (if they open up to talk frankly) : how did they manage to get feedback? any other issues they can think of?

obviously, this is not the kind of questions to start asking right away, but ex-advisees might be willing to share, especially if their experience was not that great. I talked to one of the upper-year students of my advisor and he/she was very frank about his/her experience with this and other profs. ex-advisees might not have it that fresh in their memory, but I don't see why they wouldn't be as open. you are a rare bread, so they might be glad to meet and help.

 

also, something I find helps get a conversation going is putting the professor in a good disposition. it could be flattery, it could be interest or awareness of their research, it could be talking about their dog. basically giving something to them before expecting something back. also, in regards to this particular paper you wrote, it seems that at this point it is probably no longer possible to ask for further feedback. but you can still ask general questions about your research, ideas, direction. I mean, there must be some questions they answer with more than just a few words?

 

finally, try to find out if there's anything terrible going on in your prof's life. maybe this whole feedback thing is an anomaly due to unusual circumstances.

[GradSchoolTruther]

If you can't assert yourself now, the job talk is going to be brutal.

[St Andrews Lynx]

Don't be afraid of being a little bit jerk-ish! Or to simply read off a list of bullet points on a piece of paper when you're meeting with your PI. It could be that in your attempts to be polite you're in fact being so indirect that your PI isn't picking up on what you actually want, or thinks you are satisfied with responses they are giving. This is at heart a professional, business relationship - you don't need to apply small talk rules if that isn't helping. 

I'd try and figure out - either through former students or older grads/researchers in your Dept just what the deal with your PI is.* A low number of former graduate students could be down to several things: a lack of funding, students just not interested in that subfield of interest...or that the PI is difficult to work for. If there are a lot of students that started with your PI but dropped out then that would be a big problem. If most of their students graduated (under a reasonable timeframe/ended up with good jobs/etc) then it might be not as a big a problem. But you need to find out this information. 

* There's always someone in the Dept who knows all the juice and will be delighted to share it. Corner them in private and simply ask "Hey, it seems that Prof X has only graduated 5 students in the last 20 years, do you know why that is?"

[Sigaba]

I recommend the following course of action before initiating a conversation with your advisor.

• Spend time figuring out why your advisor finds your approach to a topic that overlaps hers significantly uninteresting. Specifically, double check to make sure that your approach is relevant to established debates in the field of study. Is your approach behind the times, out in left field, or miles ahead?
• Develop a compelling but concise argument as to how you see your work advancing the established debates in your field.
  • If you're behind the times, then make the point that something has been missed.
  • If you're out in left field, show how a different perspective can offer new insights.
  • If you're miles ahead, then figure out how to sketch a map.
    • If you are miles ahead, you might give thought to using the map to position yourself a bit closer to the established debates and then go into trailblazer mode later. Your mission is to expand incrementally the frontiers of existing knowledge, not to go boldly where no academic has gone before. 
  • When you're formulating this argument, you might benefit from having a refined understanding of her/his scholarship (if not also her/his mentor's and his/her mentor's as well as those who have offered the most determined opposition). 
• Take a step back from your own circumstances and take a hard look at yourself in the mirror. Be gentle with yourself as you ask tough questions. What preconceived notions of yourself, of her, and the process do you have that might be getting in your way? Does your MA really set you ahead of your peers at your current school? Are you as receptive to guidance as you believe?

As you're new to your program, I disagree with the guidance offered by SAL for two reasons. First, as of right now, your confidence and communications skills are not where they need to be to ask the right people the right questions the right way. Second, while the information may be relevant, actively seeking it without knowing more about your department could backfire in unforeseen ways. The worst answer may not be that your advisor is terrible at teaching. 

Instead, I recommend that you put in your best efforts to earn the trust of the faculty. If they want you to know and you earn their trust, they will tell you. If they don't tell you, you will have to figure out other ways to get the answer (e.g. asking ABDs).

HTH