Would YOU turn down Harvard?

[svent]

If you want to go to Harvard (or Penn), that's fine. But at least be aware that these schools are major cash cows, especially at the Master's level. I know some people who wasted 2 years and $100k on programs at both schools, and it didn't help them one bit.

I imagine Harvard would be better around Boston/NY and Penn would be better around Philly/DC. But who knows? I bet it's easier to find cheaper housing near Penn, but it's not in such a nice area. I hear Boston area housing is insane. Penn tuition might be a tad bit higher, not sure.

To answer your question, yes, I'd turn down Harvard. Actually, I didn't even apply there.

[artsy16]

Couldn't turn down the amazing Harvard financial aid when I was accepted for undergrad. I would never apply here for a master's, because the majority are either completely unfunded or severely underfunded. And it's too damn expensive to live in this city. I chose not to apply to Harvard for PhD programs because the theoretical orientation of the program did not fit with my career goals. 

Many people think going to an Ivy League master's program will be as much of a "boost" in networking as going there for undergrad or a (funded) PhD program, but it really doesn't matter. You were duped if you're shelling out that much money thinking the benefits of networking or name recognition were going to make up for that, even a little bit. I know a handful of people at different Ivies that are SO in debt in master's programs, but they don't mind because they think the name will bring them all these big benefits. As a graduating senior, I can tell you that *no* program at Harvard, or any other Ivy, has as much of an alumni/networking influence as does the College (undergrad). It's massive, ridiculous, and I can't even put it into words. If you went to Harvard for undergrad then went to a lesser known school for grad school, that BA from Harvard will STILL carry you far. It's really a bizarre phenomenon. 

Just my .02. 

[Vulpix]

 

17 minutes ago, artsy16 said:

Couldn't turn down the amazing Harvard financial aid when I was accepted for undergrad. I would never apply here for a master's, because the majority are either completely unfunded or severely underfunded. And it's too damn expensive to live in this city. I chose not to apply to Harvard for PhD programs because the theoretical orientation of the program did not fit with my career goals. 

Many people think going to an Ivy League master's program will be as much of a "boost" in networking as going there for undergrad or a (funded) PhD program, but it really doesn't matter. You were duped if you're shelling out that much money thinking the benefits of networking or name recognition were going to make up for that, even a little bit. I know a handful of people at different Ivies that are SO in debt in master's programs, but they don't mind because they think the name will bring them all these big benefits. As a graduating senior, I can tell you that *no* program at Harvard, or any other Ivy, has as much of an alumni/networking influence as does the College (undergrad). It's massive, ridiculous, and I can't even put it into words. If you went to Harvard for undergrad then went to a lesser known school for grad school, that BA from Harvard will STILL carry you far. It's really a bizarre phenomenon. 

Just my .02. 

This makes a lot of sense, that the college is where the real network is.  That being said, I don't think people are being "duped" by going to Harvard for a masters.  The majority of HGSE alums that I've spoken to (on here, at my current job, personal circles, via admissions) have by and large felt that their experience at Harvard was 100% worth it, both personally, financially, and especially professionally.  They feel completely indebted to Harvard for where they are now, and have raved about the people/networks/organizations they have been put into contact with as a result.  I'm sure this feeling is what you make of it, and how hard you work to make it a reality.  It is also extremely dependent on what kind of financial situation you are in before and after the program.  Wherever I go, I intend to work very hard to build connections with my classmates and faculty and pursue as many opportunities as possible.  

I didn't go to Harvard for my BA, but I did go to an 'elite' school, and I know that having gone there alone was responsibility for the majority of interviews I got, and jobs offered as well.  I didn't grow up in a family with that expensive, prestige-minded experience.  I got a full scholarship (need based) to one of the best schools for undergrad, and am so thankful for everything I learned there and the opportunities it has since afforded me.

I don't know if I've picked Harvard, but I just feel the need to defend it as a viable option with all the criticism that it's not worth it, or that the difference between it and Penn is negligible.  It's a very fine difference, to be sure, but I might as well dive as deeply into that difference as possible.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Heather1011

[artsy16]

HGSE has a special place in my heart -- such a fantastic school, I've taken classes there. That being said, I believe the majority of HGSE masters programs are 1 year, or 18 months ish, instead of 2. That makes a huge difference in terms of cost.

I also didn't grow up in a prestige-minded family, let alone one with any college grads (parent and I will finish our BAs a couple years apart). H only does need-based aid for undergrad, so I wasn't paying that much. Cheaper to go there than to my flagship state school even though I was offered a half tuition scholarship at my state U.  

In thinking of "Harvard master's program" I only had in mind GSAS programs, not ones in other schools entirely. I don't know much about financial aid at the other/professional schools, but I do know that it doesn't make a big enough dent for me to ever pursue one as opposed to going to a cheaper school that's just as good a program or even better. Duped is a strong word overall, but then again, in talking with some of these current master's students and recent alum, it describes their situation unfortunately well. 

[Vulpix]

21 minutes ago, artsy16 said:

HGSE has a special place in my heart -- such a fantastic school, I've taken classes there. That being said, I believe the majority of HGSE masters programs are 1 year, or 18 months ish, instead of 2. That makes a huge difference in terms of cost.

I also didn't grow up in a prestige-minded family, let alone one with any college grads (parent and I will finish our BAs a couple years apart). H only does need-based aid for undergrad, so I wasn't paying that much. Cheaper to go there than to my flagship state school even though I was offered a half tuition scholarship at my state U.  

In thinking of "Harvard master's program" I only had in mind GSAS programs, not ones in other schools entirely. I don't know much about financial aid at the other/professional schools, but I do know that it doesn't make a big enough dent for me to ever pursue one as opposed to going to a cheaper school that's just as good a program or even better. Duped is a strong word overall, but then again, in talking with some of these current master's students and recent alum, it describes their situation unfortunately well. 

Glad you liked GSE .  Yes, my program is 1 year, so tuition is $45K for the whole program.  Still an enormous amount (I just paid $12K over two years for my current MS), but with my savings now at $60K, and HGSE financial aid grants typically between $10-15K, I am willing to pay for it, hopefully with that grant that will mean I won't have to take out any loans, or at most, $10K in loans, something I am certain I can pay off pretty quickly once I get a job.  (I saved that 60K on a teachers salary living in NYC for 2.5 years, so I like to think I'm good with my money).  The idea is that when I graduate a year from now (Penn's program is also 1 year, or 1.5 if you choose), I will have used up just about all my savings and be back where I was financially when I graduated college (nowhere), and that's OK with me.  I am 25, no pre-existing loan debt, don't own a house or a car, and still have time to replenish my savings for "real life" things in the future.  

Also, I agree that cheaper options are generally the best way to go.  For my first masters, I was accepted to Columbia, but didn't think it was worth the $100K when I could get my MS from a CUNY for $12K.  That was because I was getting a degree for my professional teaching certificate, and saw no point in going into debt for a mandatory masters degree, when all I needed it for was my teaching salary.  Now that I'm going into international educational development and policy, the reason I only ended up applying to expensive, prestigious schools was because 1) These were actually some of the only schools in major Northeast cities (where I want to be) that offered the specific type of program I wanted, and 2) I have no experience in the field, so I'll need all the help I can get.  I can also afford it now.  Also, I was just so disappointed by my masters program at CUNY that I really yearn for the intellectually stimulating experience I had in undergrad.  This is obviously also program specific, I don't mean that CUNYs in general aren't great educations.  

Edited March 13, 2016 by Heather1011

[artsy16]

Wow, @Heather1011, please teach me your money saving ways! 

A piece of anecdotal evidence -- while interviewing on the PhD circuit, surprisingly there were virtually no other Ivy League grads also applying, and looking at current student lists, they didn't have anyone who went to an Ivy. I think this has a lot to do with the region in which I applied--most Ivy folks want to go to grad school in the East or in California. I only met one faculty at all the schools I interviewed with who went to an Ivy for undergrad. There were a few Columbia and Penn fellow applicants; when we did introductions, there was almost no collective reaction when they said where they went to school. For me, though, there were gasps and murmurs (even from current faculty!), which makes me uncomfortable for a host of reasons. And that's the majority of what people wanted to talk about. "What's it like? Are/were you happy there?" etc etc. I could've easily gone to my state U, where no one would've bat an eye, even though I was accepted to places like Harvard. 

[Vulpix]

42 minutes ago, artsy16 said:

Wow, @Heather1011, please teach me your money saving ways! 

A piece of anecdotal evidence -- while interviewing on the PhD circuit, surprisingly there were virtually no other Ivy League grads also applying, and looking at current student lists, they didn't have anyone who went to an Ivy. I think this has a lot to do with the region in which I applied--most Ivy folks want to go to grad school in the East or in California. I only met one faculty at all the schools I interviewed with who went to an Ivy for undergrad. There were a few Columbia and Penn fellow applicants; when we did introductions, there was almost no collective reaction when they said where they went to school. For me, though, there were gasps and murmurs (even from current faculty!), which makes me uncomfortable for a host of reasons. And that's the majority of what people wanted to talk about. "What's it like? Are/were you happy there?" etc etc. I could've easily gone to my state U, where no one would've bat an eye, even though I was accepted to places like Harvard. 

A current Penn student in my program who went to Harvard for undergrad said the only reason she didn't go to Harvard for this program was because she had "done the Harvard thing" already and wanted a different experience.  Like you said, the BA from Harvard was enough!  Just having gone to Harvard, at whatever degree level, elicits some gasps like you said.  I agree that it sounds uncomfortable.  An alum told me that depending on where she is, she downplays or tries to avoid saying she went to Harvard, especially in certain parts of the country (I think she was referring to a few things:  anti-elitism (even though I know so many Harvard students/alums who come from decidedly un-elite backgrounds and do not become "elitists" afterwards), notions of over-qualification for certain positions, and people thinking that you are bragging simply by stating where you went to school.) Last week, when a current student in my program called to talk to me about Harvard, she told me that she found that when attending conferences or job fairs, "people take you really seriously because you're from Harvard. They assume you're brilliant and that you know what you're talking about". (This is problematic for a host of reasons, but worth mentioning).  The attitudes you encountered certainly mirrors that of my friends and family---and these are friends who are in medical school, other Ivy grad schools, prestigious law schools, etc---they all were happy for me when I got into Columbia and Penn, but FREAKED when I 'got into Harvard.'  

As for saving money, if you're actually interested  , it didn't feel all that difficult or complicated.  I basically spent one paycheck and saved the second each month (two paychecks per month).  My total rent/bills typically came to $1100-1200/month (had a roommate).  As a first year teacher in NYC, I think I made about $2500 per month. (Actually, when I first got hired as a 'teacher intern', I was making $1400 per month, but I still saved in the same way, just lived in a cheaper place and much more frugally).  So basically I saved at least $1000 out of $2500 every month.  In the beginning, I made sure to watch how often I ate out, cooked for myself, and rarely dropped $5 here or there on Starbucks (I cannot overemphasize enough how much those little Starbucks/Dunkin trips add up!!).  But I still lived life!  I went to a lot of discount Broadway shows, went on two vacations (cross-country road trip and Puerto Rico), and went out for drinks.  But I just feel like so many of my friends, my age, will drop $100 in a weekend on drinks alone. And then they marvel at my savings vs. their own  I just can't fathom that!  $60K is how much I anticipate having by this summer (saving since 2013), when I quit my job and move to grad school.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Heather1011

[artsy16]

It's really a catch 22 -- Harvard people are stereotyped as elitist when we say where we went to school after being asked. But if we don't say, or say "Boston", then we're also pegged as elitist for trying to avoid people's reactions! Tiring, but not that big of a thing to deal with considering all the pluses that come with the degree and education.

As a grad student in the fall I'll only get paid once a month, which really bites. I'm used to a weekly paycheck, but I could handle biweekly. Monthly, though???? Whose idea was that????

Sorry for the mini thread derail  

[svent]

Yep, and you probably need to save beforehand. Moving costs and first month expenses, since your paycheck will be a month behind your rent check. Maybe even 2 months of expenses if you move in a week or two before school starts and not the week of.

I've heard some people take out a loan to deal with the first month, but that would make me nervous.

Edited March 13, 2016 by svent

[Vulpix]

19 minutes ago, svent said:

Yep, and you probably need to save beforehand. Moving costs and first month expenses, since your paycheck will be a month behind your rent check. Maybe even 2 months of expenses if you move in a week or two before school starts and not the week of.

I've heard some people take out a loan to deal with the first month, but that would make me nervous.

I've heard of this too.  Definitely a last-resort as far as I can tell.

I've been browsing craigslist cost of living in Cambridge, because I was also drawn to Penn because Philly is so affordable.  However, I am finding things in areas just outside of Cambridge that are easy via public transport to Harvard that seem to be in the $650-$800/month range, so that doesn't seem as bad as I feared.  Certainly better than my current situation in Brooklyn!

[svent]

I wouldn't call Philly cheap, but it's not absurd. Still way more expensive than the midwest or south. I know someone who went to Harvard, and she visited several days with her folks and found it damn near impossible to find a place to live. I guess she wanted her own place though.

[Vulpix]

10 minutes ago, svent said:

I wouldn't call Philly cheap, but it's not absurd. Still way more expensive than the midwest or south. I know someone who went to Harvard, and she visited several days with her folks and found it damn near impossible to find a place to live. I guess she wanted her own place though.

Philly is cheap after living in NYC!  My friend has an awesome studio in a beautiful doorman building for $800/month.  I pay more than that for my bedroom in a meh building in a meh location.

I would hope it's not impossible to find a place visiting one weekend... I'm not that picky... and I'm not looking for my own place, definitely roommates... in Philly OR Cambridge!

[marature]

great discussion - makes me feel a bit better because I think I AM going to turn down Harvard, in favour of a non-Ivy school with a solid program that meets my needs if I get full funding there. Honestly right now I'm actually kind of hoping I don't get all the funding I applied for from HGSE, because that would make the decision that much harder! Anyway, I guess I should wait till I have the actual info... 

[marature]

In any case, this thread is helping me to think through some of the issues, pros and cons and so forth, so thanks!

[Vulpix]

41 minutes ago, marature said:

great discussion - makes me feel a bit better because I think I AM going to turn down Harvard, in favour of a non-Ivy school with a solid program that meets my needs if I get full funding there. Honestly right now I'm actually kind of hoping I don't get all the funding I applied for from HGSE, because that would make the decision that much harder! Anyway, I guess I should wait till I have the actual info... 

That's how I felt at t a lot of different moments---like with TC, I was hoping I wouldn't get much financial aid, because I knew I didn't want to go there, but if I had gotten the most aid, I would have felt like I had to go!

[Vulpix]

Well, I just found out Harvard is giving me no funding.  However, it is down to Penn, which has given me $10K in grants.  This makes Penn still $4K more expensive than Harvard.  Pending any additional possible GA/job opportunities, I guess cost is now a moot point in my decision making process.  It's just sad that the richest school in the country (world?) can't give me even a thousand dollars in need-based scholarship...

[artsy16]

11 minutes ago, Heather1011 said:

Well, I just found out Harvard is giving me no funding.  However, it is down to Penn, which has given me $10K in grants.  This makes Penn still $4K more expensive than Harvard.  Pending any additional possible GA/job opportunities, I guess cost is now a moot point in my decision making process.  It's just sad that the richest school in the country (world?) can't give me even a thousand dollars in need-based scholarship...

The graduate schools don't have as much financial aid money as the undergraduate College. Financial aid relies heavily on donations from alum; there are way more alum from the College, and people feel much more connected to their undergrad than their grad so they tend to donate to the former. I don't know how this program portrayed their financial and to you, but it seems like you were misled :/

[Need Coffee in an IV]

35 minutes ago, Heather1011 said:

Well, I just found out Harvard is giving me no funding.  However, it is down to Penn, which has given me $10K in grants.  This makes Penn still $4K more expensive than Harvard.  Pending any additional possible GA/job opportunities, I guess cost is now a moot point in my decision making process.  It's just sad that the richest school in the country (world?) can't give me even a thousand dollars in need-based scholarship...

I would have to say grad schools can be tricky with their funding. I applied to Oregon because I liked the program and they said they offer funding. I got in but was only given a work study position that wouldn't cover anything really. My total bill for two years would be around 80,000 a year at least. I asked about a fellowship but I wouldn't even know if I got it until halfway through the academic year. Thanks but no thanks. I would walk away.

[Vulpix]

43 minutes ago, artsy16 said:

The graduate schools don't have as much financial aid money as the undergraduate College. Financial aid relies heavily on donations from alum; there are way more alum from the College, and people feel much more connected to their undergrad than their grad so they tend to donate to the former. I don't know how this program portrayed their financial and to you, but it seems like you were misled :/

They said they give up to $16k in need based aid, and also possible merit grants. I can accept that they didn't think I deserved a merit award, but considering most people in previous years' threads here seemed to always get 5-15k in need based aid, I was still expecting something, anything. I understand that it's very different than undergrad. 

[GradSchoolTruther]

If you were told you can get go up to $16k in need-based aid, and you said others get $5k-$15k, what's your issue? If you have $60k in savings, you also don't meet the "need" standards for a one-year program.

As for expecting more funding from a master's program, it usually doesn't work that way. From reading these forums, it should have been clear master's students struggle to get funding m.

Edited March 28, 2016 by GradSchoolTruther

[Vulpix]

4 hours ago, GradSchoolTruther said:

If you were told you can get go up to $16k in need-based aid, and you said others get $5k-$15k, what's your issue? If you have $60k in savings, you also don't meet the "need" standards for a one-year program.

As for expecting more funding from a master's program, it usually doesn't work that way. From reading these forums, it should have been clear master's students struggle to get funding m.

From reading past threads from my school and program, it looked like almost everyone actually did get *some* funding, so I guess I just had it in my head that this would be the case.  I managed to save that money on a (first year-third year) teacher's salary over three years, but my income is still (after taxes) <$35K/year.  I'm not saying I am entitled to anything at all, and I am in a very fortunate position to not have to take on that much debt because I have saved up, but I didn't think I'd be considered in the same way as a top tax bracket applicant in that sense, given my relatively low income (which I'm sure is high compared to other applicants) and of course the fact that I won't be working anymore as a full time student.  IDK, I guess I was just hoping for a wee bit of non-loan awards, because all my other schools offered something too, and I figured they all have a similar process....

Edited March 28, 2016 by Heather1011