LoR: to see or not to see?

[carpecc]

I was entering the recommendation information for one of my recommenders on WashU's online application and saw an interesting note:

Do you wish to waive your right to examine this letter of recommendation? Yes/No

 

Under the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act of 1974, students have access to their education record, including letters of recommendation. However, students may waive their right to see letters of evaluation, in which case the letters will be held in confidence.

Interesting. I'd been checking the box as "No" or "agree" on some of the hardcopy forms but after I saw this it made me think. Say, if I don't get into any of the programs I want, it would be really useful to know if one of the reasons was a weak recommendation and who wrote it. Then of course not ask them again next time around.

What do other people think, is it better to see your LoR after the fact, or waive your right and give your recommenders confidentiality?

[zilch]

the general practice is to waive your rights. if you don't it sends the message that you're screening your rec letters which tends to imply that your writers may not know you that well.

[acup313]

Yes, I believe it is standard to waive the right, so as not to put pressure on your writers. Most of mine offered to show me the letter anyway.

[modernity]

A lot of schools frown upon not waiving your rights, because (among many reasons) if your LORs know you have access to it, they may alter what they would have otherwise said and the school cannot be sure if this was their real opinion, or the one they give because they know you'll see it. I've also heard of LORs refusing to write a letter without the waiver being signed - so if you do choose to do this, you should make sure its okay with your recommenders.

[profound_g]

In an ideal world the standard practice would be not to waive this right. In the real world, however, you probably should. It is supposed to make the writers feel more free to write what they really think, but at the same time, everybody waiving the right nullifies it.

[Thanks4Downvoting]

I'm pretty sure that it's almost assumed that you will waive your rights. Besides, I wouldn't want to know really.

[fuzzylogician]

On 11/4/2009 at 2:46 AM, carpecc said:

I was entering the recommendation information for one of my recommenders on WashU's online application and saw an interesting note:

Do you wish to waive your right to examine this letter of recommendation? Yes/No

 

Under the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act of 1974, students have access to their education record, including letters of recommendation. However, students may waive their right to see letters of evaluation, in which case the letters will be held in confidence.

Interesting. I'd been checking the box as "No" or "agree" on some of the hardcopy forms but after I saw this it made me think. Say, if I don't get into any of the programs I want, it would be really useful to know if one of the reasons was a weak recommendation and who wrote it. Then of course not ask them again next time around.

What do other people think, is it better to see your LoR after the fact, or waive your right and give your recommenders confidentiality?

That logic doesn't work, though. This act only gives enrolled students the right to view the contents of their files. If you are not admitted to a given institution, you have no legal right to see the recommendations anyway, unless you are a currently or previously-enrolled student at that university.

[rainy_day]

It significantly weakens your application if you do not waive your rights.

If you really wanted to see your letters, here is one option: apply to a dummy school, and then have the letters sent to you and then read them if you don't get in.

[fuzzylogician]

If you really wanted to see your letters, here is one option: apply to a dummy school, and then have the letters sent to you and then read them if you don't get in.

Of course that's totally unethical and there will be serious consequences for being caught doing it.

[a fragrant plant]

I did not waive my rights to see the recommendation letters. I didn't ruminate all the ramifications of not waiving my rights. My recommenders never mentioned anything about it so it didn't occur to me that it would be a big deal.

You won't be able to view the letters before you are admitted to the program. For this reason I don't think not waiving your rights will harm or weaken your application because the whole process is still confidential.

[fuzzylogician]

You won't be able to view the letters before you are admitted to the program. For this reason I don't think not waiving your rights will harm or weaken your application because the whole process is still confidential.

More accurately, you can't view the letters before (unless) you are enrolled in the program.

I think the common wisdom is that if your recommenders knew you will be able to see what they write later on, they might be reluctant to say bad things about you. If confidentiality is assured, then they can afford to be honest. I do think it's doubtful that professors will care too much if you read their letter several months after they had written it, given that you will only have the chance to do that if you were admitted (and then how bad could the letter be?); but on the other hand, if you view it this way, there doesn't seem to be a big advantage to not waiving your rights either.

[a fragrant plant]

It significantly weakens your application if you do not waive your rights.

What is your source? Nobody really knows for sure unless the admission committee explicitly said so.

[naptown]

I did not waive my rights to see the recommendation letters. I didn't ruminate all the ramifications of not waiving my rights. My recommenders never mentioned anything about it so it didn't occur to me that it would be a big deal.

Same story here.

Honestly I don't care, I just made a decision and stuck with it. I asked one recommender, and they didn't mind one way or the other. I do have one recommender who I worry I might not get that much praise out of, but it is what it is at this point. I have no interest in ever reading the letters, but I don't think it would make a difference to my recommenders if I waived my right.

[fuzzylogician]

I do have one recommender who I worry I might not get that much praise out of, but it is what it is at this point. I have no interest in ever reading the letters, but I don't think it would make a difference to my recommenders if I waived my right.

It's a conceptual question, though. It's not about what your recommenders actually think or do, it's how the adcomm perceives the situation. If it thinks the letters could be missing vital (negative) information about you that the writers were reluctant to mention because they were afraid you could see the letters, that makes them much less effective. I don't have evidence to say adcomms do or don't think this way, I'm just pointing out the logic.

[a fragrant plant]

It's a conceptual question, though. It's not about what your recommenders actually think or do, it's how the adcomm perceives the situation. If it thinks the letters could be missing vital (negative) information about you that the writers were reluctant to mention because they were afraid you could see the letters, that makes them much less effective. I don't have evidence to say adcomms do or don't think this way, I'm just pointing out the logic.

I understand your rationale and I think it makes perfect sense. However I don't think our busy professors have the time to bother about our waiver decision. My professor told me that few professors have the time to craft an idiosyncratic letter for each student. A lot of them work on templates that they have used and modified them accordingly. Since I know my professors quite well, I don't think my decision to retain my right will affect the way they write the letter of recommendation. If it does, I am pretty confident that they'll tell me.

I can't really control how the adcomm view the LoR. A letter lauding an infallible student may raise suspection, but a candid comment of a candidate can also be viewed negatively. All in all, I have no qualms about my decision. But if you do, you should waive your rights.

[samjones]

if your LOR writers know anything about the process, then they should know not waiving your right to see the letter:

1) only matters IF the student is accepted and enrolls into the school

2) the student will only be able to see the letter AFTER they are accepted and enrolled into the school

this does not require them to show the letter BEFORE you have applied. this does not require them to show you the letter AFTER you have applied. it just means you'll be able to go to your new school's office and ask to see the application materials that you got you into the school.

i didn't waive my rights to read the letters for any of my schools or for any of my LORs. i got into all the schools i applied to last year.

again, not waiving your rights to see the letter only means you get to see the letter AFTER you have been admitted and enrolled. and it's in the office of the new school that you get to see it; it's not something that's between you and your LOR writer.

[samjones]

A lot of schools frown upon not waiving your rights, because (among many reasons) if your LORs know you have access to it, they may alter what they would have otherwise said and the school cannot be sure if this was their real opinion, or the one they give because they know you'll see it. I've also heard of LORs refusing to write a letter without the waiver being signed - so if you do choose to do this, you should make sure its okay with your recommenders.

if an LOR writer refused to write for someone because a student wanted to see their letter, then that's so stupid of the LOR writer. they should know that the student will only be able to see the letter only if the student is admitted to the school they're applied to and/or after everything has been said and done. it's not like the student ever has a right to demand to see the letter before the LOR writer submits it.

also, most people know that an LOR writer will only agree to write a recommendation for a student they actually like/feel confident about. an LOR writer scared that a student will see that they wrote something disparaging wouldn't agree to write a letter.

Edited November 4, 2009 by samjones

[samjones]

I think the common wisdom is that if your recommenders knew you will be able to see what they write later on, they might be reluctant to say bad things about you. If confidentiality is assured, then they can afford to be honest.

an LOR writer probably wouldn't agree to write for you if they thought they wouldn't be able to write you a decent/helpful letter.

[fuzzylogician]

an LOR writer probably wouldn't agree to write for you if they thought they wouldn't be able to write you a decent/helpful letter.

Yes. But a strong candidate is still not a perfect candidate. I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that a recommender will also want to talk about a student's weaknesses, despite the fact that she overall strongly endorses that student.

Also, over the year I've been participating in this forum and a few other grad school related forums, I've had the chance to read about students who found out they got not-so-strong letters from professors they thought were supporters and who had agreed to write for them. You can fault the student for making a bad choice, the professor for being an ass, or both. But the fact remains that not all LORs are equally strong.

Edited November 4, 2009 by fuzzylogician

[samjones]

Yes. But a strong candidate is still not a perfect candidate. I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that a recommender will also want to talk about a student's weaknesses, despite the fact that she overall strongly endorses that student.

Also, over the year I've been participating in this forum and a few other grad school related forums, I've had the chance to read about students who found out they got not-so-strong letters from professors they thought were supporters and who had agreed to write for them. You can fault the student for making a bad choice, the professor for being an ass, or both. But the fact remains that not all LORs are equally strong.

No one is saying that the LOR writer is going to write only about rainbows and puppies. and of course some LORs are better than others- that's how one person may get in over another person. An LOR writer probably won't care one way or another what some student thinks what they say in an LOR. what's a student going to do? not ask them to write next time? if that happened, why would an LOR writer give damn? how would they even know? besides, if the student is reading the letter, they're probably happy about whatever the prof wrote anyway because THEY GOT IN!! woohoo!! who cares about one small comment about a late paper when the prof said it was written better than rainbows and had the content of adorable baby slobber.

again, an LOR writer wouldn't agree to write for someone if they thought they had more bad to say than good, and i'm sure a professor isn't going to be easily intimidated by the fact that a student will get to read a letter IF she gets in and only AFTER she enrolls. and like someone else said, i bet they don't even blink twice over it because they're busy enough not to care.

and blowing up realms of possibility could lead one to never leave the house and/or to scaring other applicants into having illogical fears and beliefs that they could at all affect the content of a letter by retaining the right to read said letter AFTER they have enrolled in their new school.

[rainy_day]

What is your source? Nobody really knows for sure unless the admission committee explicitly said so.

Admittedly, I don't have a 'source', but it is the commonly held belief and something that has been recommended to me as early as college applications and something referenced in all the graduate application books I have read. I should clarify that it significantly weakens your letters, which in turn weakens your application. It is not something that I would consider risking.

Of course that's totally unethical and there will be serious consequences for being caught doing it.

Fuzzy, I totally agree; thank you for adding this to my hastily written comment. It is not something I plan on doing, but it was an option my friend's mentor actually suggested, and since this community is all about sharing what bits of information we have, I thought I'd pass it along.

[modernity]

No one is saying that the LOR writer is going to write only about rainbows and puppies. and of course some LORs are better than others- that's how one person may get in over another person. An LOR writer probably won't care one way or another what some student thinks what they say in an LOR. what's a student going to do? not ask them to write next time? if that happened, why would an LOR writer give damn? how would they even know? besides, if the student is reading the letter, they're probably happy about whatever the prof wrote anyway because THEY GOT IN!! woohoo!! who cares about one small comment about a late paper when the prof said it was written better than rainbows and had the content of adorable baby slobber.

again, an LOR writer wouldn't agree to write for someone if they thought they had more bad to say than good, and i'm sure a professor isn't going to be easily intimidated by the fact that a student will get to read a letter IF she gets in and only AFTER she enrolls. and like someone else said, i bet they don't even blink twice over it because they're busy enough not to care.

and blowing up realms of possibility could lead one to never leave the house and/or to scaring other applicants into having illogical fears and beliefs that they could at all affect the content of a letter by retaining the right to read said letter AFTER they have enrolled in their new school.

As fuzzy said - there are people who found out that professors wrote negative letters about them, in fact I remember one horror story of a professor writing a letter that said "I do not recommend this student for graduate work, as they are not capable of the workload...."- the student found out I believe because they pulled out extra LORs they had and read them. Who knows WHY this professor said this, or how the student was led into believing they would write something positive - but it DOES happen. People can be strange and vindictive.

And I have to say its a bit naive to think the only thing some students might do is "not ask that person again" if they had something negative said about them... there are plenty of ways students can and do make professors lives hellish on occasion.

Is there an overwhelming chance this will happen? No, definitely not- but the possibility is there and people should be aware that it has happened and people on this forum and others have stated their experiences with it. I don't want them to be illogically afraid - just informed, and they certainly know their situation/their professors better than any of us.

No one is trying to force anyone to waive them. Its up to you entirely (and frankly irrelevant to any of us)- we're just saying that its the status quo and laying out the reasons as to why it is.

Edited November 5, 2009 by modernity

[fuzzylogician]

Samjones, I think we basically agree on the facts. In most every case, a professor is not going to waste her time writing someone a letter unless she believes that student is a strong applicant. The professor is going to know that her letter can't be read unless the student is accepted and enrolled, so she shouldn't have qualms about writing her true opinion of the student. And the adcomm is going to know that the professor knows this, so it shouldn't think anything of a student who didn't wave her rights. In a perfect world that will always be the case. I'm willing to believe that in our less-than-perfect world it's still going to be true most of the times. Call me paranoid, but all things being equal, I'd rather prepare for the worst case scenario. We've already agreed that it's not like I'd gain a whole lot from not waiving my rights -- after all I'll only ever get to read letters sent to the school I enrolled in, and since I was admitted there, how bad could the letters be? Given that, I choose to waive my right to see the letters and preempt the one crazy person on an adcomm that will be suspicious of my motives and disregard my letters. Why risk it?

Edited November 5, 2009 by fuzzylogician

[modernity]

We've already agreed that it's not like I'd gain a whole lot from not waiving my rights -- after all I'll only ever get to read letters sent to the school I enrolled in, and since I was admitted there, how bad could the letters be? Given that, I choose to waive my right to see the letters and preempt the one crazy person on an adcomm that will be suspicious of my motives and disregard my letters. Why risk it?

I think this is the best way it has been put so far- what I was thinking but couldn't seem to put in words. Thank you fuzzy!

I also have to add the question on to this that... If you're certain that your letter writers will write positive things (and most will, otherwise why bother as you said) and were assured of that fact by your admittance into a school, are you really going to go through the bureaucracy of gaining access to those files and reading the letters? I feel like the percentage of people that do this might be on par with the percentage of people that have LORs write negative letters about them.

If you really must see your letter it seems easier to just discuss it upfront with the faculty member that's writing it for you - then you know you have their explicit permission, and you can still waive your rights to avoid the possible negative adcomm situation.

[samjones]

In a perfect world that will always be the case. I'm willing to believe that in our less-than-perfect world it's still going to be true most of the times. Call me paranoid, but all things being equal, I'd rather prepare for the worst case scenario. We've already agreed that it's not like I'd gain a whole lot from not waiving my rights -- after all I'll only ever get to read letters sent to the school I enrolled in, and since I was admitted there, how bad could the letters be? Given that, I choose to waive my right to see the letters and preempt the one crazy person on an adcomm that will be suspicious of my motives and disregard my letters. Why risk it?

I don't care what you choose and why you chose them. I am only interested in shedding light on the fact that it doesn't actually matter if you want to see the letters that obviously weren't bad enough to keep you from getting in. i am interested in letting people who are applying this year know that it most likely will have no effect on the content or quality of the letters written for them.

and what is this worst case scenario? what are you paranoid about? that your prof is ignorant/unfamiliar with the process? that the profs of the institution you're applying to are just as ignorant/unfamiliar with the process? are you sure you want an LOR from them then? are you sure you want to enroll in that school then? there's a crazy person on the adcomm?? one unfamiliar with the process? well, if they have made it on the adcomm i bet in the discussion with the other adcomm members the truth will be revealed to them and they will soon understand what it really means not to waive your rights to see letters. i'm sure someone else will know the real deal about the letters.

what professor fears their students? what professor fears what their students will do if they know i mentioned some small disparaging thing that didn't prevent them from getting into the school they've now enrolled in? i can't think of any reason why a professor would give two rocks about what an admitted student thinks about some honest reflection about their work, character or academics, especially since the student is admitted and enrolled anyway. it makes no sense and i think spreading senselessness around is ridic, honestly. just ridic because they make no sense. i think we can give professors the benefit of the doubt that they know the process and don't fear their students, especially students they've agreed to write for.

i don't actually care what people choose- opt not to see it or opt to see them! who cares. but the reasons given to opt not to see it are just ridic and i just wanted to express my opinion on them.

and it's not about checking to see if they will write nice things- everything has already been said and done and the student can't do anything about what they've said anyway. but one might want to see their letters because they may get to confirm what their strengths and weaknesses are. that student may use that information in their new graduate program because they not have the chance to exploit their strengths and improve on their weaknesses. reading the letters that helped you get into a school may even help you know what the school/department may have liked about you and you can work to make sure that those qualities are something you keep around and/or strengthen during your graduate studies.

reading letters after you've gotten into a school isn't about checking up on whether a prof liked you or not- because it won't even matter at that point really. but it may allow you to have some insight on what kind of student/colleague you have been and how you may want to cultivate or improve that perception while you're in your new program.

also, it's just the status quo?? what? the state of affairs is that profs and adcomm members are ignorant/unfamiliar with the admissions process?? um, okay.

professors are a long time out of middle school, so i doubt a prof would use an LOR for an opportunity to ruin a student's life... because it's unethical and they are grown ass adults. also, a student probably should know better than to be unaware that they don't have the best relationship with one professor as compared to another professor. i'm betting a student is able to discern what terms they are on with one prof. over another, and they will be aware enough to know to ask the prof they have a more positive relationship with for an LOR. it's what the whole decision-making process is all about. we are all capable of doing it. we are all capable of weighing who will be our best choice to write our letters. and i think it's safe to be unafraid of profs' ignorance about the admissions process.

Edited November 5, 2009 by samjones