UWashington or UWisconsin? Geographical impact on future opportunities?

[vadupleix]

Greetings!

I've just been admitted to the math PhD program in U Washington and after I did some research on the living cost there, I am literally shocked. While I'm still trying to work out a compromise (since I'm going to live with my wife, there's not much to compromise), I want to know if it's worth the 5 years struggle. As the title said, the alternative is U Wisconsin, with a similar math department in regard of reputation and ranking. However, my concern about that is the fairly big geographical disadvantage compared to Seattle. So here I would like to know your prospective on this, considering the following 3 cases, how the impact of graduate from a school that's in middle of nowhere?

1. Looking for a work in the industry with MS degree.

2. with PhD degree.

3. Looking for an academic work in another college (this one I suppose is not affected too much)

I'm aware that situation differs from person to person, but do you have any personal experiences or opinions you want to share about this? Since I'm a foreigner and don't have much experience about all these work related issues in US, your oppinions could benifit a lot in helping my decision and I'll appreciate that!

Thanks a lot!

[svent]

I'd imagine Washington would be better for industry, both are fantastic if you want to enter academia (though the academic job market is a challenge). I don't think there's much of a job market in Wisconsin. Then again, depends what kind of industry in Seattle. I guess most of the software jobs are taken by CS majors. Wisconsin would be easier to get by for now though, on a grad school stipend.

[compscian]

Is Seattle that expensive? From what a few students told me, 2000$ a month is much more than enough (for an individual). Apartment rents are no more than 1300 to 1400 (for 2 people), and if your wife would be working, it should be a breeze.

With regards to job, I think Seattle is nearly as awesome as the Bay area for many fields. In particular, if you work on statistics/ML, I heard that it's quite easy to get internships and jobs at Microsoft and Amazon which are just around the corner. A number of other industries and start-ups are also in the area looking for advanced math skills. Academia is hard regardless of the university. Btw, are you talking about the applied-math department or the math department?

[Need Coffee in an IV]

Seattle is extremely expensive particularly if you got used to an area that has a low cost of living. I live in an area where I only pay 500 for a 2 bedroom apartment in a quite neighborhood. So that 2000 is scary to some of us. I'm in a similar boat, I applied to Uwashington as well but I doubt I will end up there. I have to consider expenses and my boyfriend's happiness as well. I think the Washington degree might give you more flexibility but I've only heard great things about Wisconsin.

[compscian]

But salaries are adjusted for cost of living rite. For example, UIUC pays even their top grads only around 1800$ per month, U-Wash pays around 2200$, and Stanford/Berkeley/Columbia pay close to 2800$. After accounting for cost of living, all of these offers lead to the exact same standard of living.

@vadupleix Another important consideration is the climate. Seattle and Madison are very different. If you like one a lot, you are likely to hate the other. This in my opinion is as important a consideration as job opportunities or advisers. 

[svent]

Seattle is expensive, I assume because of the tech boom. Rent is similar to Chicago. You can get roommates and survive on $2k, but it won't be fun. Let's put it this way: you may need roommates in Seattle, but in Wisconsin, you can get your own apartment. Forgot about the wife working factor though.

Stipends are adjusted for COL, but not completely. I'd rather have $1800 in middle of nowhere, Illinois than $2800 in the bay area, that's for sure.

[vadupleix]

Thank you all for the replies!

Wife working is not an option for my case as her visa wouldn't allow her to do so. (She can do some online business though but this is not a reliable factor to be counted in)

I found some affordable studios at about $1000, at a distance of 10+ mi, but not sure of the traffic condition in Seattle (as bad as Chicago?). Would be interesting to know what life is like that way.

4 hours ago, compscian said:

Is Seattle that expensive? From what a few students told me, 2000$ a month is much more than enough (for an individual). Apartment rents are no more than 1300 to 1400 (for 2 people), and if your wife would be working, it should be a breeze.

With regards to job, I think Seattle is nearly as awesome as the Bay area for many fields. In particular, if you work on statistics/ML, I heard that it's quite easy to get internships and jobs at Microsoft and Amazon which are just around the corner. A number of other industries and start-ups are also in the area looking for advanced math skills. Academia is hard regardless of the university. Btw, are you talking about the applied-math department or the math department?

I'm in pure math, have not determined on the specific research direction though.

[compscian]

@vadupleix I am a bit concerned about the direction of this discussion though. Looking at housing difficulties and commuting times as criteria for choosing a university is bad IMHO. I'd rather pick the university based on potential advisers, course offerings, climate, employment opportunities etc. Housing and stipends are minor obstacles, and easy to overcome as you encounter them. On the other hand, if your mind is set on Madison, then don't try too hard to find reasons to strike Seattle off your list. Sometimes it's better to follow your heart/instinct.

However, from an objective point of view, nothing here suggests one over the other. I can assure you that based on my conversations with 4 different people at UW - money is not an issue. CS/EE (and presumably math) provide funding for 9 months with close to $2300 pm. Most said they were saving nearly $500 even after very liberal spending. However, none of them and myself have ever been married..

[svent]

I've met PhD students who came in married, whose wife had no job, and wondered how they got by. I think finances are a very legitimate concern. There's no guarantee the OP will finish the program. Many people end up dropping out and get nothing to show for it. Wisconsin probably has a better math department anyway.

Edited February 17, 2016 by svent

[vadupleix]

24 minutes ago, compscian said:

@vadupleix I am a bit concerned about the direction of this discussion though. Looking at housing difficulties and commuting times as criteria for choosing a university is bad IMHO. I'd rather pick the university based on potential advisers, course offerings, climate, employment opportunities etc. Housing and stipends are minor obstacles, and easy to overcome as you encounter them. On the other hand, if your mind is set on Madison, then don't try too hard to find reasons to strike Seattle off your list. Sometimes it's better to follow your heart/instinct.

However, from an objective point of view, nothing here suggests one over the other. I can assure you that based on my conversations with 4 different people at UW - money is not an issue. CS/EE (and presumably math) provide funding for 9 months with close to $2300 pm. Most said they were saving nearly $500 even after very liberal spending. However, none of them and myself have ever been married..

I realize that the title of the post is a bit misleading. I'm not trying to make the decision only based on the living cost but its nonetheless an important factor. Decision on an unknown 5 years of academic life (and a much longer timespan as the outcome of the decision) is not easy so I want to consider as throughly as possible.

 

[svent]

Actually I didn't realize how close Madison is to Chicago and Minneapolis (and Milwaukee). Maybe getting an industry job wouldn't be so bad there either.

[compscian]

1 hour ago, vadupleix said:

I realize that the title of the post is a bit misleading. I'm not trying to make the decision only based on the living cost but its nonetheless an important factor. Decision on an unknown 5 years of academic life (and a much longer timespan as the outcome of the decision) is not easy so I want to consider as throughly as possible.

 

Makes sense. I have been through this for two years now, and I'll tell you how this usually plays out. You subconsciously attach yourself to a university (instinct, gut feeling, whatever). Then you try to find N number of faults with the other universities without paying any attention to the positives, while also adding blinders to the weaknesses of your favored program. This is a wrong way to go IMHO. If you feel that stipend at Seattle won't be enough, and this is a deal breaker, you should just go to Madison.

[ihatechoosingusernames]

3 hours ago, vadupleix said:

I found some affordable studios at about $1000, at a distance of 10+ mi, but not sure of the traffic condition in Seattle (as bad as Chicago?). Would be interesting to know what life is like that way.

Traffic isn't terrible if you feel like you need to drive, but the public transit system (bus & light rail) are fantastic. I think you get the opportunity to purchase a bus pass at a discount as a UW student as well. If you like biking, there is a huge bike path that goes right to campus, and the city is bike friendly as well. I couldn't tell you a thing about the math program, but I lived in Seattle around the UW area for years. It's expensive, but totally doable. Feel free to message me if you'd like to talk more about the different neighborhoods around Seattle.

 

[Psychologyandpizza]

Madison and Wisconsin are great places, IMO the job market isn't bad and might even be better than other over saturated areas of the country. I would choose WI but I'm biased because i go to a WI state school. Also it's gorgeous here with all four seasons and the cost of living is LOW and that seems to be a legitimate concern of yours. 

[spartacutor]

I think those are two very reputable schools that have national recognition so I think with any of these two you wouldn't have too much trouble finding a job anywhere in the country with some effort. I know where I want to end up working and living after my degree but none of the schools in that state appealed to me but I don't doubt I will be able to find work in that state i I put in the correct effort.

[juilletmercredi]

Geographic location doesn't matter much at all in the academic market.

The academic market is a national one. When you go on the job market for professor positions in math, the departments are generally not going to care whether you're applying from Madison or Seattle. A very limited potential exception could be small Midwestern colleges that are concerned about retention - they may be worried that people unused to cold Midwestern winters in rural areas won't stay at their tiny colleges for very long. However, they'll probably be almost as concerned about someone coming from Madison as they would someone coming from Seattle, so *shrug* no big deal there.

Industry is a different story. Geographic location absolutely can matter in industry. I work at Microsoft, and we have a large proportion of people here who went to UW. I also witnessed this in graduate school myself in New York - I realized at the end of five years that I had so many connections all over the city. The fact of the matter is, being physically located somewhere can turn into opportunities - for part-time jobs, for internships, for consulting relationships, for volunteering and shadowing, or simple connections and networking. One of my new colleagues got this job by geographic networking: she did her PhD at UW; she knew the person in the job before her, and that person recommended her for the position.

That said, I went to Columbia, which is on the opposite coast, and spent my entire life before August on the East Coast. Large companies hire from all over the country. My Seattle friends are rarely actually from Seattle, and most of them moved here from all kinds of places to work for one of the large companies here (often quite recently; most of my friends moved to Seattle within the last 2 years).

I don't know a whole lot about Madison's industry and culture. I've heard really good things. (Madison's not the middle of nowhere.) But I will say that Seattle is an excellent place to be, employment-wise, if you have quant chops and an advanced degree. Everybody here is hiring! Everyone has gobs of data and just wants a math or stats major to throw at it. Heck, they'll throw a physics major at it if they can get one. I will also say that Seattle is a city with a lot of immigrants and internationals. The tech world is an industry that's really open to going through the visa process to get people hired here. Both for issues of representation and issues of employment, you may find it easier here (but again, I don't know that much about Madison).

[compscian]

Totally agree with @juilletmercredi

I may have a sampling bias, but based on my interaction with a number of current grad students and recent alumni from UW, Seattle is one of the hottest tech hubs in the world at the moment. It is probably second only, or even comparable, to the Bay Area.

For people interested in applied math, statistics, data science, machine learning, and the likes; Seattle seems a wonderful place with lots of opportunities. Jobs are available everywhere. However, if you consider quality and type of role, the best research labs are in the Bay Area, Seattle, or NYC. It's definitely a big plus to be geographically located at these places to secure internships or collaborations.

[blubed]

On 2/17/2016 at 1:11 PM, compscian said:

@vadupleix I am a bit concerned about the direction of this discussion though. Looking at housing difficulties and commuting times as criteria for choosing a university is bad IMHO. I'd rather pick the university based on potential advisers, course offerings, climate, employment opportunities etc. Housing and stipends are minor obstacles, and easy to overcome as you encounter them. On the other hand, if your mind is set on Madison, then don't try too hard to find reasons to strike Seattle off your list. Sometimes it's better to follow your heart/instinct.

I have to disagree. When you're choosing a school, you have to consider what's most important to you. Maybe for you climate is more important than having affordable rent. And that's ok, because it's the next X years of your life and those are your priorities. If an excessive commute is going to make you miserable [I have road aggression so no thank you], or if you're not interested in living like a penny pincher [totally fine if that's your lifestyle], you absolutely should be considering these criteria. Cost of living vs. stipend is incredibly important to me, which is why I only applied to programs that offered sufficient funding. I hope OP can find a suitable balance. I can't imagine not considering rent and commute time after living in an extremely expensive and congested metro area. If it'll impact your mental health you better think about it.

[compscian]

34 minutes ago, blubed said:

I have to disagree. When you're choosing a school, you have to consider what's most important to you. Maybe for you climate is more important than having affordable rent. And that's ok, because it's the next X years of your life and those are your priorities. If an excessive commute is going to make you miserable [I have road aggression so no thank you], or if you're not interested in living like a penny pincher [totally fine if that's your lifestyle], you absolutely should be considering these criteria. Cost of living vs. stipend is incredibly important to me, which is why I only applied to programs that offered sufficient funding. I hope OP can find a suitable balance. I can't imagine not considering rent and commute time after living in an extremely expensive and congested metro area. If it'll impact your mental health you better think about it.

Hi @blubed

I by and large agree with you. Everyone should look at the factors that are important to them, and I just gave a non-exhaustive list of example factors. However, not all factors are equal. Some of them are completely within a student's control (where you live, how much you spend etc.) whereas others are completely outside (climate, available professors, course requirements etc.). There are of course a number of factors which will fall in between.

I would generally pay more attention to the hard or fixed factors. If you don't like a longer commute, it is certainly possible to find a place closer (at possibly higher cost). If you need additional money, it's easy to get a grader or web administrator position in the university which are not very time consuming. These are things you can adapt on the fly over the course of 5 years. Not happy with an apartment, pretty easy to change. Not happy with an adviser, much harder to change. Not happy with the climate, impossible to change!

Also, in engineering, math, or stats - money is never really an issue. All programs I am aware of provide more than enough for even lavish spending. It's also possible (and encouraged in Seattle) to do summer internships which pay a lot (close to $6k per month). OP has a specific case where his wife can't work due to visa issues. IMO, this isn't a deal breaker, but you can always choose to disagree with me.

[LwT]

Hi!

I've lived in the middle of nowhere now for about 20 out of my 24 years of life. And if you would consider Madison in the middle of nowhere then I've spent 24/24. Haha this is a very common occurrence and I hear similar questions quite often regarding Madison. I have an important question regarding your question.

You're entering a PhD program and your wife can't work, so why are you concerned about getting a job with a MS? what will your wife be doing? If she'd be going to school she might still be able to get work through the university.

Depending on what you mean by "industry" jobs, Wisconsin is full of them. Chicago and Milwaukee are both close by, however Madison itself has many opportunities. I guess it depends on what type of employment you'd like? Wisconsin is notorious for catering to employee's needs and making them feel comfortable. The city high life is not on most people's priority list because people come to Wisconsin to avoid the cold hearted, dog eat dog mentality of the east coast...no offense to said area.

Madison has the amenities of a city, but as most said is extremely affordable. I'm about to enter a Phd program there and many of the married grad students have bought condos that are within walking distance from campus. One couple bought a rather spacious 3 story duplex and said, after taxes, they paid about 1100/month. You could easily find a reasonable 1 bedroom place, or studio, for 800 bucks and you would never have to drive your car anywhere. There is approximately 2-3 months where it gets cold and you might want to drive to the grocery story or something. Or you could get a way cheaper and way nicer place about 15 mins outside of campus and drive everyday. However then you have to get a parking place on campus and probably buy a parking pass. Driving is never a hassle in Madison though. Especially compared to other cities including Milwaukee. Most people love Madison once they live there- most people actually come back and would rather not leave. I'll be a 4th gen UW (Madison also goes by UW) grad. Most of my family stayed in the Madison area because its contagious and generally voted one of the best places to live. Other random notes- bus passes are free, extremely biker friendly city, largest farmers market in the nation (during summer only!), lots of really really great cheese and beer lol. Although Madison is rather ethnically diverse, Wisconsin in general isn't. I worked at a company in a 5,000 person town and literally every single person was white from the production floor through the office.

Let me give you an idea of my current situation, which I think is comparable:
I'm married and my wife does not have a college degree. We currently live in a very nice apartment in a smaller town outside of Madison. We're looking for places to live within walking distance of the capital building (best area in my opinion) where essentially all the good restaurants and amenities exist- at least for the millennial generation. We would never need to use a car. However, we'd like a little bit nicer of an apartment similar to our current  living situation. With our budget we are looking to get a nicer 1 bedroom apartment for about 1100$/month. She will be attending undergrad at Madison as well and will need to work 15 hrs/week making ~10$/hr (easy conservative estimate waitress job). Keep in mind we both have chronic health conditions that require us to spend about $300/month on medical supplies and we also tithe 10% of our income to charity. We also eat out twice a week, get coffee and drinks occasionally, and eat mostly organic food. So again, if you don't have a health condition and don't spend outrageous money, you could easily support your wife and still live comfortably. Also don't forget that after you get your PhD you can always move elsewhere... If you can't find the industry job you want in Madison then just apply to places in Chicago- or anywhere for that matter. The same applies to Seattle. Places don't really care where you're from after you get your PhD because almost everyone leaves their graduate school to do a postdoc someplace else. I think you should primarily be making your decision based on your anticipated graduate studies and which program you liked better, not which city. Unless you're obsessed with meeting all the right people at Microsoft, most of your time won't be spent building connections- it'll be getting your PhD. Good luck.

[vadupleix]

Thank you all for the replies. I read carefully through all of them and they helped a lot. I'm going to both schools for a visit and hopefully will come to my final decision between the two.