Are any programs "courting" you?

[harddecisions]

Hello all. I've been a lurker, but now I was hoping to get some insight from you all. I wish to remain anonymous, so I hope you don't mind the vague description of my current situation.

I've been accepted into two programs. One is a T-25 program (x), and the other is a T-15 program (y). Program x has been putting in a lot of effort into getting me to choose their program. In the letter of acceptance, they told me that I was their very top choice. For the visit, they gave me over $700 for travel, and they are putting me up in a pretty fancy hotel. Also, their travel agent arranged everything for me. The DGS called me the other day and spent a good hour and a half talking to me. I mentioned something about finding housing with a large dog just in passing, and although he didn't have an answer for me then, he emailed me the following day with information about dog guidelines in their city. Graduate students from the program have also been contacting me and have been very welcoming. Also, I told the DGS about a my crazy schedule the week of the visit, and he immediately was willing to put me up for another night in the hotel if it would make my stay more comfortable. Also, I've been awarded a very prestigious fellowship at x, and I will not have to worry about money whatsoever throughout my 5-6 years there. 

On the other hand, program y has not put forth nearly as much effort. They are giving me approximately $300 for the visit. Although they encouraged me to come forward with any questions, I have not really heard anything from them after I received the initial acceptance. It is a much bigger department, so there are more professors working in my AOI. It is ranked approximately 10 spots above program x, and program y has a better placement record. However, the financial stipend from program y is nearly half of what program x is offering (but according to graduate students at program y, the stipend is still enough to survive). Program y is also located in a more expensive city, although I would not mind living in either location. 

My question is, are any of the schools you all have been accepted to courting you in the way program x has been courting me? Or are your experiences more along the lines of my experience with program y? Also, any and all advice about how I should make my decision will be very much appreciated. 

[dgswaim]

I've had no such "problem."

[MVSCZAR]

I've been getting some really mixed messages. Some programs are a lot more eager to have me there, others don't seem to show how eager they are. It feels kind of weird. 

[gughok]

I, too, have been experiencing no such difficulties. My one PhD offer hasn't even spoken to me of the logistics for my visit (I only know the date) despite me asking, nor have they taken much initiative in reaching out beyond initial contact. I guess they must check this forum and they know I'm not all that likely to turn them down.

[feelthebern16]

All I know is (and I don't know much) I would want a program where everyone supported me and made my research a priority. Based on what you've described, I feel that you would literally SOAR at program X. Program Y may not care about you as much. Reading this scenario is a no-brainer to me. 

 

[harddecisions]

37 minutes ago, dgswaim said:

I've had no such "problem."

I apologize, I did not intend for my current situation to be considered problematic. I am just curious about others' experiences. My letter writers at my current university say that the way program x is treating me is quite rare. But thank you (and everybody else) for the responses. 

 

10 minutes ago, feelthebern16 said:

All I know is (and I don't know much) I would want a program where everyone supported me and made my research a priority. Based on what you've described, I feel that you would literally SOAR at program X. Program Y may not care about you as much. Reading this scenario is a no-brainer to me. 

 

I had this initial response as well. However, my letter writers said the behavior of program x should not play a huge role in my decision. They claim that it is easy to woo someone, and program x's behavior at this stage isn't an indication of how they will treat me once I'm actually enrolled in the program. 

 

[SMB123]

Being "10 ranks higher" is not at all a good reason to choose program y over program x. Choose the program that will be the best fit for you and be able to give you the resources you need to be successful. If you think program y has a much stronger core faculty in your particular area of research, then that's a good reason to go there. If you think their courtship style is similar to how they would be towards you as a grad student (y: hands-off, unavailable, unhelpful, not a lot of funding for conferences.... x: readily available, very helpful, very engaged, lots of grad student funding...) then that is another important thing to consider.

Regarding your actual question, I think that most programs will fall somewhere in the middle. 

[.olsz]

go to the top-15 program. they aren't courting you because their rank/prestige/faculty speaks for itself.

Edited March 10, 2016 by mongoose16

[Establishment]

30 minutes ago, mongoose16 said:

go to the top-15 program. they aren't courting you because their rank/prestige/faculty speaks for itself.

I'm a huge Leiter/PGR-shill, but this is just terrible advice.

It really sounds like a visit to both schools (meeting your future professors and grad. students), and some further investigation (emailing current students about how accessible the professors you're interested in are) would do you a lot of good. Okay, program y isn't courting you as hard, but that probably doesn't matter at all if all the grad. students there seem just as friendly and the professors just as accessible. On the other hand, if when you visit the department feels just as cold as they do now, that might be a good indicate that such a place won't be too conducive towards your own philosophical and personal development.

I think your professors are right to caution you. It's easy for a department to put in a lot of effort now in an attempt to woo you, and then back off later. Companies do it all the time. What you want to figure out is whether or not the efforts program x are putting in right now would be sustained over the years.

In addition to the considerations I mentioned, and that SMB123 mentioned (how much funding is there for conference traveling?), you might look into differences in teaching responsibilities and summer pay, and keep in mind the stipend/cost of living differences. Although I think these are considerations only come into play if program y checks out to have a good environment. I'll also say too, that though you want to keep these things in mind, I think if the environments are both schools are more or less equal, I think the most important factors are going to be placement and your individual fit (personality wise and interest wise) with your AOI professors.

Ultimately, I don't think you should at all include in your considerations that program x is courting you, because it doesn't really represent anything substantive by itself.

[dgswaim]

38 minutes ago, Establishment said:

I'm a huge Leiter/PGR-shill

Really? Why?

I mean... the PGR seems to do an *okay* job of tracking good places for doing traditional LEMM philosophy, but outside of that it strikes me as very nearly useless. 

[Establishment]

22 minutes ago, dgswaim said:

Really? Why?

I mean... the PGR seems to do an *okay* job of tracking good places for doing traditional LEMM philosophy, but outside of that it strikes me as very nearly useless. 

To quote my High School's graduating motto: GO LEMM OR GO HOME!

[dgswaim]

Just now, Establishment said:

To quote my High School's graduating motto: GO LEMM OR GO HOME!

You're saying this to a philosopher of biology... so.... guess I'll go home........

[Griswald]

7 hours ago, harddecisions said:

I've been accepted into two programs. One is a T-25 program (x), and the other is a T-15 program (y). Program x has been putting in a lot of effort into getting me to choose their program. In the letter of acceptance, they told me that I was their very top choice. For the visit, they gave me over $700 for travel, and they are putting me up in a pretty fancy hotel. Also, their travel agent arranged everything for me. The DGS called me the other day and spent a good hour and a half talking to me. I mentioned something about finding housing with a large dog just in passing, and although he didn't have an answer for me then, he emailed me the following day with information about dog guidelines in their city. Graduate students from the program have also been contacting me and have been very welcoming. Also, I told the DGS about a my crazy schedule the week of the visit, and he immediately was willing to put me up for another night in the hotel if it would make my stay more comfortable. Also, I've been awarded a very prestigious fellowship at x, and I will not have to worry about money whatsoever throughout my 5-6 years there. 

As a 2nd year PhD student, my advice is: don't underestimate the importance of a department's being interested in its graduate students. Many programs, even top ones, simply aren't; and grad students suffer for it. I think that x's courting you counts strongly in its favor, though it's not decisive, of course. Try not to settle on a program until you've visited both places and talked with the students there.

[.olsz]

.olsz

Edited March 11, 2016 by .olsz

[manchesterano]

For what it is worth, my supervisors both said that while I should enjoy the courting to the maximum, I should not in any way take it as an indicator of how things will be once I accept. For that, talking to current graduate students is the only vaguely reliable indicator of the realities of the programme. 

[MVSCZAR]

53 minutes ago, manchesterano said:

For what it is worth, my supervisors both said that while I should enjoy the courting to the maximum, I should not in any way take it as an indicator of how things will be once I accept. For that, talking to current graduate students is the only vaguely reliable indicator of the realities of the programme. 

Am I just too Catholic? because I legit cannot take the courting. It makes me want to jump into the sewer and never come out. 

Edited March 11, 2016 by MVSCZAR

[Cecinestpasunphilosophe]

6 minutes ago, MVSCZAR said:

Am I just too Catholic? because I legit cannot take the courting. It makes me want to jump into the sewer and never come out. 

(in robot voice): "Too Catholic? Does not compute. Cannot do. Beep boop."

[maxhgns]

2 hours ago, manchesterano said:

For what it is worth, my supervisors both said that while I should enjoy the courting to the maximum, I should not in any way take it as an indicator of how things will be once I accept. For that, talking to current graduate students is the only vaguely reliable indicator of the realities of the programme. 

 

That seems exactly right to me. I would not put too much stock in how a department behaves towards you at this stage. They all have a vested interest in recruiting people they take to be strong students, faculty have an interest in recruiting students to study under them period, and five or six years down the line you will be a very different person/student/job candidate. Also, you're just not that special. I don't mean that as an insult: you're probably a great person and a stellar student. The thing is, so is everyone else who'll be around you, as well as the bulk of students at other programs. The "courting" is as much about them as it is you, probably more, and it's based on some pretty shaky data.

So... yeah. Don't decide based on the "courting". Talk to current students, email those who are on the market this year or who went on last year. Students still in coursework may still be under the influence of the wonderful program that accepted them; students facing the despair of the market will have a better sense of how the department helped them, or didn't (they may also be overly pessimistic, however!). Ask about your potential supervisors, how good they are about feedback, that kind of stuff. Ask about professionalization initiatives in the department. Ask about what the placement director does for students.

[currentphilgrad]

11 hours ago, maxhgns said:

 

So... yeah. Don't decide based on the "courting". Talk to current students, email those who are on the market this year or who went on last year. Students still in coursework may still be under the influence of the wonderful program that accepted them; students facing the despair of the market will have a better sense of how the department helped them, or didn't (they may also be overly pessimistic, however!). 

I hope the following comment isn't too off topic, but I think it's at least semi-helpful. In my department, we all put on a show for you. We're all told to be on our best behavior, so basically none of us are reliable sources of information. I mean obviously some of it is true, but it's all given through rose-colored glasses. You know who will tell it like it is? The people who aren't really participating in the visit, the people on the outskirts. These are the people that aren't trying to sell you something. I suggest trying to talk to these people, too. For what it's worth, I'll be that person at my visit. I'll see you soon!

[Guillaume]

On 3/10/2016 at 2:07 PM, gughok said:

I, too, have been experiencing no such difficulties. My one PhD offer hasn't even spoken to me of the logistics for my visit (I only know the date) despite me asking, nor have they taken much initiative in reaching out beyond initial contact. I guess they must check this forum and they know I'm not all that likely to turn them down.

 1) Go Big Red!

2) In response to your statement, I looked at your signature. Two words: Ha. Ha.