Surprised by school visits (UCLA, Berkeley)

[philosopher king]

This was the first time I’ve done this and I was struck by how much I learned, so I felt compelled to share the info (and even make an account here to do so). Overall, I’ve learned that (1) it’s important to visit schools and (2) the schools I visited were quite different than I had imagined them to be.

 

I’ve been very fortunate enough to get into Berkeley and UCLA, as well as a few East Coast schools “ranked” a tiny bit lower. So far no schools in the “very top tier” (in the sense of top 8 which are mostly Ivy League etc). I didn’t imagine these results, and perhaps I’ve always had an unrealistic and romantic image of the schools I just visited.  So…after visiting I guess I’ve learned that my East Coast options (though slightly lower “ranked”) are worth considering carefully.

 

My interests are in mind, metaphysics, and epistemology.

 

1 – Berkeley. Really great place, very welcoming…and awesome opportunities for metaphysics and epistemology. With regards to mind, Alva Noe’s work---and I guess I should have known this beforehand---is completely foreign to me (and honestly although I don't know much, I kind of think that some of it is questionable philosophy). He seems to be doing tremendously experimental work---and not in sense of empirical---that I can’t begin to engage with. Searle is also probably retiring by the time my dissertation would come around. There are some others that specialize in mind, but really the strengths seem to be metaphysics and epistemology and related fields---and everyone working in these fields seems AWESOME. The school and department also have a wonderful atmosphere (the buildings, the resources, the school at large etc) which makes me feel motivated and determined. Call me superficial but most state schools are huge, etc.

 

2 – UCLA. Kind of what I learned at Berkeley but to an even higher extent. Some of the faculty got tenure and now they’re studying really cool stuff, but stuff that I know little about (e.g. philosophy of language and film).  Also, Burge is taking on fewer and fewer students now (I think he’s almost 71) and it seems very likely that it would be very difficult to have him as an advisor for my dissertation once that comes around in 3 or more years (or at least he wouldn’t be as accessible as younger or more middle-aged faculty). Unfortunately, it looks like there are only one junior faculty at UCLA who I could do mind with and there isn’t much metaphysics and epistemology happening. I’d be surprised if UCLA kept its reputation for Mind in the next few years…and I’ve come to realize this is an important consideration because during the first few years at pretty much any school I’d be fulfilling my disruption requirements (i.e. not specializing much), so it’s important to think about what the department will be like 3-4 years from now (and unfortunately I don’t think Burge will be very accessible then). Overall, it seems more like an awesome place for language, logic, history of philosophy, and ethics...subjects about which I don't feel very confident.

So, I never in a thousand years imagined this but GIVEN MY INTERESTS these two programs turn out not to be a great as I thought they were (I guess especially UCLA).

[ralfy]

I'm super jealous of your options. I think you're correct to consider the age of the faculty, especially for those you see working with some years from now on your dissertation.  Best of luck in your choices. My only advice: wait until all your options come through even if it means April 15th.

[Jonathan13]

On 4/3/2016 at 2:35 PM, philosopher king said:

This was the first time I’ve done this and I was struck by how much I learned, so I felt compelled to share the info (and even make an account here to do so). Overall, I’ve learned that (1) it’s important to visit schools and (2) the schools I visited were quite different than I had imagined them to be.

 

 

 

I’ve been very fortunate enough to get into Berkeley and UCLA, as well as a few East Coast schools “ranked” a tiny bit lower. So far no schools in the “very top tier” (in the sense of top 8 which are mostly Ivy League etc). I didn’t imagine these results, and perhaps I’ve always had an unrealistic and romantic image of the schools I just visited.  So…after visiting I guess I’ve learned that my East Coast options (though slightly lower “ranked”) are worth considering carefully.

 

 

 

My interests are in mind, metaphysics, and epistemology.

 

 

 

1 – Berkeley. Really great place, very welcoming…and awesome opportunities for metaphysics and epistemology. With regards to mind, Alva Noe’s work---and I guess I should have known this beforehand---is completely foreign to me (and honestly although I don't know much, I kind of think that some of it is questionable philosophy). He seems to be doing tremendously experimental work---and not in sense of empirical---that I can’t begin to engage with. Searle is also probably retiring by the time my dissertation would come around. There are some others that specialize in mind, but really the strengths seem to be metaphysics and epistemology and related fields---and everyone working in these fields seems AWESOME. The school and department also have a wonderful atmosphere (the buildings, the resources, the school at large etc) which makes me feel motivated and determined. Call me superficial but most state schools are huge, etc.

 

 

 

2 – UCLA. Kind of what I learned at Berkeley but to an even higher extent. Some of the faculty got tenure and now they’re studying really cool stuff, but stuff that I know little about (e.g. philosophy of language and film).  Also, Burge is taking on fewer and fewer students now (I think he’s almost 71) and it seems very likely that it would be very difficult to have him as an advisor for my dissertation once that comes around in 3 or more years (or at least he wouldn’t be as accessible as younger or more middle-aged faculty). Unfortunately, it looks like there are only one junior faculty at UCLA who I could do mind with and there isn’t much metaphysics and epistemology happening. I’d be surprised if UCLA kept its reputation for Mind in the next few years…and I’ve come to realize this is an important consideration because during the first few years at pretty much any school I’d be fulfilling my disruption requirements (i.e. not specializing much), so it’s important to think about what the department will be like 3-4 years from now (and unfortunately I don’t think Burge will be very accessible then). Overall, it seems more like an awesome place for language, logic, history of philosophy, and ethics...subjects about which I don't feel very confident.

So, I never in a thousand years imagined this but GIVEN MY INTERESTS these two programs turn out not to be a great as I thought they were (I guess especially UCLA).

 

Ya, looking over their website it seems like UCLA offers very little in metaphysics and epistemology, and is becoming less and less strong in mind and cognitive science (because as you said Burge is getting super old ... and you just can't be that available / responsive when you're that old and your juggling talks, research, and students). These sorts of considerations should be taken seriously given that places where we might get jobs in the future want us to have a very solid grasp of contemporary M&E. Really, schools in that ranking area (10-20 ish maybe) should not be compared to one another based only on rank, but based on more specific details like some of those you mentioned. (Also, I have a friend in the area and she says going practically anywhere in LA requires you to sit in a bus for 1 hour if not longer.)

[philosophe]

55 minutes ago, Jonathan13 said:

Ya, looking over their website it seems like UCLA offers very little in metaphysics and epistemology, and is becoming less and less strong in mind and cognitive science (because as you said Burge is getting super old ... and you just can't be that available / responsive when you're that old and your juggling talks, research, and students). These sorts of considerations should be taken seriously given that places where we might get jobs in the future want us to have a very solid grasp of contemporary M&E. Really, schools in that ranking area (10-20 ish maybe) should not be compared to one another based only on rank, but based on more specific details like some of those you mentioned. (Also, I have a friend in the area and she says going practically anywhere in LA requires you to sit in a bus for 1 hour if not longer.)

apparently they've been trying to hire for epistemology for quite some time, but no results

[Establishment]

1 hour ago, philosophe said:

apparently they've been trying to hire for epistemology for quite some time, but no results

Well shoot, I'll specialize in epistemology, they can just hire me!

[dgswaim]

45 minutes ago, Establishment said:

Well shoot, I'll specialize in epistemology, they can just hire me!

Epistemology of Millgram?

[Jonathan13]

"apparently they've been trying to hire for epistemology for quite some time, but no results"

 

maybe they don't have the funding. sometimes it seems like state schools face challenges private ones dont

[stakes.don't.matter.]

I find it amazing that UCLA has almost NOTHING for metaphysics and epistemology.  There's Kaplan (who certainly knows his stuff) and there's someone doing philosophy of science and metaphysics, but that isn't, so to speak. the same sort of metaphysics that's in the mainstream (e.g. Williamson, etc). If you're not just doing ethics, then you really might be trouble when it comes to an M&E hire once you graduate after 5 years. And, if you have options, it even seems that there might be better places do ethics (especially contemporary ethics like meta-ethics).

Edited April 13, 2016 by stakes.don't.matter.

[maxhgns]

10 hours ago, stakes.don't.matter. said:

I find it amazing that UCLA has almost NOTHING for metaphysics and epistemology.  There's Kaplan (who certainly knows his stuff) and there's someone doing philosophy of science and metaphysics, but that isn't, so to speak. the same sort of metaphysics that's in the mainstream (e.g. Williamson, etc). If you're not just doing ethics, then you really might be trouble when it comes to an M&E hire once you graduate after 5 years. And, if you have options, it even seems that there might be better places do ethics (especially contemporary ethics like meta-ethics).

One of Kaplan's former students told me (a couple years ago) he's no longer taking students. Even if he was wrong, it's near that point in time.

[ralfy]

On 4/13/2016 at 10:42 PM, stakes.don't.matter. said:

I find it amazing that UCLA has almost NOTHING for metaphysics and epistemology.  There's Kaplan (who certainly knows his stuff) and there's someone doing philosophy of science and metaphysics, but that isn't, so to speak. the same sort of metaphysics that's in the mainstream (e.g. Williamson, etc). If you're not just doing ethics, then you really might be trouble when it comes to an M&E hire once you graduate after 5 years. And, if you have options, it even seems that there might be better places do ethics (especially contemporary ethics like meta-ethics).

This seems true. I always find it interesting when schools that I hold in such esteem actually have significant flaws like this.