Unfunded Cornell vs. Funded Rutgers NB

[Baloch]

Hi all, please keep reading I need good advice before April 11th,

The classic question comes again; I have applied to 4 MA programs in cultural anthropology through Fulbright foreign student grant. I have received the results and Cornell did not offer any financial assistance, being the case with most of the MA programs, and Fulbright has decided to fund me for Rutgers NB only. Fulbright representatives informed that all of the admission offers are tied to them and I'm not entitled to attend any of the other schools if I decline their grant for Rutgers NB! I'm still verifying this new rule with the school. 

My concerns are:

1. Have you heard of an admission tied to a grant (although the admission letter dose not say so, and I'm capable of securing other sources of funding)?

2. I'd like to pursue my PhD at the same program, so I don't have to repeat the courses and I've been in touch with the POI and our research interests are compatible?

3. Would attending Rutgers NB decrease my chances of joining a top PhD program versus if I attend Cornell?

Thank you

Edited April 8, 2016 by Baloch

[catcatcatdog]

I should think Rutgers + Fulbright > Cornell - Fulbright + loans/self-funding. I'm a Fulbright alum myself (not to an MA program) and it's a name that has opened doors, though I can't speak to the intricacies of the grant-admission dynamics you describe here. Did Fulbright give a reason why they will only fund Rutgers? Regardless, I don't think an MA from Rutgers would disadvantage you at all come PhD time -- I've heard it's a good idea to do your MA and PhD at different institutions anyway, to increase your academic exposure. Good luck!

[Baloch]

25 minutes ago, catcatcatdog said:

I should think Rutgers + Fulbright > Cornell - Fulbright + loans/self-funding. I'm a Fulbright alum myself (not to an MA program) and it's a name that has opened doors, though I can't speak to the intricacies of the grant-admission dynamics you describe here. Did Fulbright give a reason why they will only fund Rutgers? Regardless, I don't think an MA from Rutgers would disadvantage you at all come PhD time -- I've heard it's a good idea to do your MA and PhD at different institutions anyway, to increase your academic exposure. Good luck!

Hi Cat,

I see your point, I don't know the reason behind their decision, all what they said is "your Fulbright program is sponsored by U.S. Department of State, they have the right to make the final selection." Also another factor for selecting Cornell is that I'd like to continue my PhD there, and I really don't want to repeat the courses and the 2 years. Thanks though for the insight. 

[catcatcatdog]

It definitely sounds like a frustrating situation. Again, though, I would caution against the idea of doing your PhD at the same institution where you pursued your MA. A year (it's a one-year MA?) is a lot of time to discover new concepts, literatures, and potential supervisors, and you may find that when it comes time to apply to PhD programs, Cornell isn't where you see yourself after all. This happened to me during my MA -- I came in certain that I wanted to stay on for the PhD, and boy, am I glad I didn't (they did make me an offer, but I declined)! The supervisor was great but the department/institution was chaotic. Being at Rutgers might give you more flexibility to stay open to those sorts of developments over the course of your MA. Just a thought!

[rising_star]

What do you have against Rutgers? If you don't want to go there, why'd you apply there in the first place? I don't see how doing well in any MA program would make it less likely for you to gain admission to a PhD program later.

[Baloch]

14 hours ago, catcatcatdog said:

It definitely sounds like a frustrating situation. Again, though, I would caution against the idea of doing your PhD at the same institution where you pursued your MA. A year (it's a one-year MA?) is a lot of time to discover new concepts, literatures, and potential supervisors, and you may find that when it comes time to apply to PhD programs, Cornell isn't where you see yourself after all. This happened to me during my MA -- I came in certain that I wanted to stay on for the PhD, and boy, am I glad I didn't (they did make me an offer, but I declined)! The supervisor was great but the department/institution was chaotic. Being at Rutgers might give you more flexibility to stay open to those sorts of developments over the course of your MA. Just a thought!

That's an advantage, however I'll be in my 30s and I want to start my academic career sooner rather than later. I already found the POI that I'd love to work with, plus you can always have an outsider. Getting in the MA program will familiarize me with the professors and it will be much feasible for me to stay in rather than coming from outside and competing with scores of people in a cutthroat process. 

Edited April 9, 2016 by Baloch

[Baloch]

8 hours ago, rising_star said:

What do you have against Rutgers? If you don't want to go there, why'd you apply there in the first place? I don't see how doing well in any MA program would make it less likely for you to gain admission to a PhD program later.

I know how it sounds, it was just a mandatory thing to apply to 4 schools at least, and if I don't get in my top choice then I'd not mind going to my second or third, but once you know that you got it you can't just turn a blind eye to that! As I said; Getting in the MA program will familiarize me with the professors and it will be much feasible for me to stay in rather than coming from outside and competing with scores of people in a cutthroat process. 

[rising_star]

I think you don't understand how the MA to PhD process typically works, @Baloch. When I applied to PhD programs, one of the applications was to the same department where I was finishing up my MA. I had to apply for a spot and compete against everyone else applying to the PhD program that year. In fact, my application process was more rigorous because rather than getting approval from the admissions committee, I had to get a majority of all faculty in the department to vote to let me continue on to the PhD and to fund me. So, I wouldn't say that getting in somewhere and doing your MA there necessarily gives you a leg up on the PhD process. Also, you'd still be competing against the other PhD applicants for funding at the doctoral level.

[catcatcatdog]

@rising_star has good advice here. In some other countries, including the one where I did my MA, the MA-PhD pipeline can be smooth, but that's not typically how it works in the US. And familiarizing yourself with the professors at Cornell, including a POI who looks so compatible on paper, may not be a wholly rosy process -- as noted above, you may have to win over more, not fewer, people in order to advance to the PhD than you would as a fresh outsider. Ultimately, it's your call, but turning down Fulbright and self-funding/taking out loans aren't decisions to be taken lightly, regardless of how desirable or prestigious you perceive the other university to be.

[Baloch]

What would strengthen my application for PhD programs: an Ivy school masters with no-name scholarship or mid-level school masters with Fulbright?

Your thoughts?

[farflung]

1 hour ago, Baloch said:

What would strengthen my application for PhD programs: an Ivy school masters with no-name scholarship or mid-level school masters with Fulbright?

Your thoughts?

In my opinion, you should accept the Fulbright and go to Rutgers, which is a perfectly good school, and will put you in a good position to apply for many PhD programs in a few years. I would not advise taking on debt for the Masters if you can help it, especially if you eventually want a PhD in Cultural Anthropology -- one of the least-lucrative degrees ever. 

[knp]

Is Cornell's anthropology department even any better than Rutgers'? I've only just committed to this field, so I don't have a particularly fine-grained understanding of the differences between programs to which I did not apply, but I would have said they were about equal—neither tippy-top (including Cornell) but both very good (including Rutgers).

However, I think OP meant not "at Cornell, I do not have a (name-brand) scholarship," but "at Cornell, I do have a scholarship, but it's not as famous as the Fulbright." I don't know how that changes things; if OP has full funding with a stipend at Cornell, I don't think the Fulbright is so prestigious that it should override OP going to their top choice school! But if it's just partial funding OP should go to Rutgers, no question.

When evaluating fit, though, I would also caution that you are overestimating how much of a rank difference we have here. Many Ivy graduate programs in many, many subjects are very good but not in the top ten (or whatever) of a given field. They'll almost always be in the top fifty or so graduate programs, but many public universities, including Rutgers, are also in that quality range.

[Slagatha]

I think that being a Fulbright awardee will definitely bolster your academic CV, so that's something to consider going ahead. Rutgers isn't a shit hole by any stretch of the imagination, and does seem to have a good reputation. tbh I've never heard much about Cornell's anthro programme, so I don't know how much it being an ivy ultimately matters. Especially for your MA. 

Do the Fulbright. Do it.

[AKJen]

Rutgers has some great faculty and exceptional anthropologists across the university.  So does Cornell.  Having gone to school in Philly, you can't discount (and shouldn't) discount the central location of Rutgers.  From that location, it's only a short commute to conferences, events and even classes at a ton of major universities.  Most of the Ivies (Columbia, Penn, Princeton) have active student exchange programs with Rutgers, so you can take a class with faculty (with a little extra paper work) at those prestigious universities and position yourself well for future admission and take some amazing seminars.

Regardless of where you end up, you will almost certainly have to retake courses when you get into a Ph.D. program.  That's pretty much how it works in the US, so I don't think Rutgers or Cornell will slow you down any.

[birchleaf]

I also want to add (as someone currently in the Cornell MA program) that you don't "repeat" classes. Also, as has been stated previously, getting into the MA does not guarantee you a place in the PhD- a lot of people view it as "continuing on" but in reality you'll be up against everyone else in the same PhD applicant pool.

If you have any questions about the program, feel free to message me though.

[Baloch]

I'm going to Rutgers University on a Fulbright Scholarship!

Thanks for everyone who shared a genuine piece of advice with me, it has been a very exhausting decision making period, I know it sounded like a "first world problem", but I was worried that I'm about to make a decision that I'd regret. It turned out that my thinking was influenced with what people will perceive as impressive, but not with what would benefit my academic career and interest the most. These are some reasons behind declining Cornell's unfunded offer, and accepting Fulbright grant and attending Rutgers NB. I hope some of you can benefit from my experience.  

1. Funding is a huge issue, and I'm not 100% sure I'd receive another grant, and I'd end up spending the last penny of my savings on Cornell and living expenses, thanks, but no thanks. 

2. What was holding me back was the prestige factor, that Cornell has a somewhat stronger name. However I do not think that this is as big of an issue in this case. Certain MA programs have less prestige than their accompanying PhD programs because they are unfunded and so are essentially a main source of revenue for the school (what we call a "cash cow"), and so admissions are more open for that reason. But on the other hand, Fulbright has a very strong prestige factor and Rutgers is a great program on top of that, with 250 years of history, so this will look very good for PhD applications. It is also well known that Fulbright sends its non-American students to schools that are the less expensive options, so that will be understood in my application and work in my favor.

3. Rutgers NB anthropology program has a stronger emphasis on linguistic anthropology, which is essentially my focus of interest, in fact I became interested in Rutgers because of a book, "living language" which is authored by a professor at Rutgers, Laura Ahearn, and it's now a textbook in the field. Also the research output of the department is very high and competes with that of Cornell and other top schools, see http://www.newbrunswick.rutgers.edu/about/national-rankings.

4. Rutgers is much much closer to the New York area, while Cornell is in a very rural isolated area, which means that as I'm applying to PhD programs I'll more easily be able to visit professors and attend events where I can network. Rutgers is also part of an agreement with all NYC-area universities so that I can take classes for free at any of them: Princeton, Columbia, CUNY, New School, NYU, etc. This will allow me to take a class with a professor who I'm considering as an advisor for my PhD program--and how wonderful if I can get him or her to write me a recommendation letter during my applications. 

5. As a Harvard professor, that I'm interested to work with, have told me and other professors with similar reasons, "what counts are strong letters of recommendation from faculty at these institutions who know you and your work well. Bear in mind that Cornell is in Ithaca, NY -- though in a very beautiful part of the country, it is very rural, and somewhat isolated. Rutgers, on the other hand, is just a few minutes by train from NYC (which I commute to almost on a weekly basis), and you would want to avail yourself of the artistic and intellectual riches this city provides (and who knows? you might not have the opportunity of being so near it again). With these caveats in mind, I would advise you to go to Rutgers."

6. Fulbright is not just a grant, but it's a cultural program that annually brings 4000 students from around the world to network in enrichment seminars, beside other cultural events, to share their cultures with the American society and vice versa, and such a huge net is definitely beneficial and can't be ignored.  

7. Masters would not be my final degree, so it's more about finding a program that will train me well in what I'm passionate about, and offer the range of courses that I'm interested in taking. And who knows what opportunities may come along once I'm ready and more mature academically to figure out what I want to dedicate my academic career for in the PhD level. As one said "I would caution against the idea of doing your PhD at the same institution where your pursued your MA. A year is a lot of time to discover new concepts, literatures, and potential supervisors, and you may find that when it comes time to apply to PhD programs, Cornell isn't where you see yourself after all." And another said "Rutgers has some great faculty and exceptional anthropologists across the university.  So does Cornell.  Having gone to school in Philly, you can't discount (and shouldn't) discount the central location of Rutgers.  From that location, it's only a short commute to conferences, events and even classes at a ton of major universities.  Most of the Ivies (Columbia, Penn, Princeton) have active student exchange programs with Rutgers, so you can take a class with faculty (with a little extra paper work) at those prestigious universities and position yourself well for future admission and take some amazing seminars.Regardless of where you end up, you will almost certainly have to retake courses when you get into a Ph.D. program.  That's pretty much how it works in the US, so I don't think Rutgers or Cornell will slow you down any." A Cornell student said "I also want to add (as someone currently in the Cornell MA program) that you don't "repeat" classes. Also, as has been stated previously, getting into the MA does not guarantee you a place in the PhD- a lot of people view it as "continuing on" but in reality you'll be up against everyone else in the same PhD applicant pool." 

8. Will tell you once I'm done ... 

Go Scarlet Knights!  

Edited April 11, 2016 by Baloch

[busybee]

23 hours ago, Baloch said:

I'm going to Rutgers University on a Fulbright Scholarship!

Thanks for everyone who shared a genuine piece of advice with me, it has been a very exhausting decision making period, I know it sounded like a "first world problem", but I was worried that I'm about to make a decision that I'd regret. It turned out that my thinking was influenced with what people will perceive as impressive, but not with what would benefit my academic career and interest the most. These are some reasons behind declining Cornell's unfunded offer, and accepting Fulbright grant and attending Rutgers NB. I hope some of you can benefit from my experience.  

 

Congratulations, Baloch!!! I think you made the best decision!

The prestige element hinders a lot of people, myself included, in making decisions about graduate school. But graduate school is a whole nother ballgame where name doesn't carry as much weight as many other factors do. 

You will have an amazing time at Rutgers, I'm sure! Congrats again!!

[MuseoFiend]

I'm glad you picked RU. I went to RU for my undergrad and later worked for Cornell, and I think the experience at Rutgers and the Fullbright knocks Cornell's brand name out of the park.