MA before PhD?

[valys]

Greetings - I'm new here so I hope this is the right place to ask my question.

My goal is to be admitted to a top 30-ish PhD in political science program starting in Fall '17 - I think I'd like to specialize in political economics, but that's liable to change. I currently have an offer to get a MA at Brandeis this year, so I'm trying to figure out whether or not I should accept. The main downside (besides the time) is that the only guaranteed funding I'll have is from an alumnus scholarship, so the tuition cost will be at least 20k. Will the MA help my PhD applications this fall enough to justify the cost?

To give you an idea of my background: I graduated in 2012 from a top-40 national university, but my GPA was only 3.47. However, I double majored with a senior project in history and a research honors thesis in politics (I also graduated early but I doubt that counts for anything) with a handful of school-level publications. I received a master's in industrial relations (business school program, top-3 of its kind nationally) with a 3.78 GPA, but there was no research involved. I did TA (grading mostly) for one course at the business school. I graduated at the end of 2014 and haven't really done anything academic since, although I've been reading a lot, slowly working on some theoretical stuff using public databases, and tutoring a few students.

My old GRE is going to expire before this fall, but it was 164V/162Q/5.5. I didn't prepare for it and I've developed much stronger quantitative scores since I last took it, so I'm cautiously optimistic that I'll do at least that well when I retake this summer (I'm aiming for 165+ in both V and Q).

My understanding is that my undergrad GPA isn't "awful" but is a serious weakness, and I don't know whether my IR graduate GPA matters to politics adcoms. My letters of recommendation would either be rusty, non-professors, or unable to speak to my research skills (but fortunately no more than 1 of the 3 in each case). My hope is that the MA would strengthen my LORs and remove any doubt about my GPA... but is it necessary for me to get into a top 30-ish school? On the other hand, is my profile flawed in a way that I probably won't be able to get into a top flight program even with the MA?

I deeply appreciate any help or guidance!

Edited April 28, 2016 by valys

[kwils76]

That was my undergrad cumulative GPA (though my in-major was much higher - about a 3.7). 

I did a masters and did very well in it and absolutely felt it was a boost to my application, for a few reasons:

1. It allowed me to have a grad GPA on my application which was much higher than my undergrad GPA.
2. It allowed me to demonstrate that I can handle graduate coursework well.
3. It allowed me to network with professors in my field and get some good LoR's from them. I absolutely believe that my grad advisor's connections helped me.
4. Most importantly I think, it allowed me to figure out my precise research area and delve into and demonstrate my research capabilities within that precise research area. My focus and competency here I think definitely showed in my applications, and it allowed me to pick specific programs to apply to that would be a good "fit" for me and explain in my SoP's why I felt they were a good fit.

That said, there are many, many paths to PhD programs and others may have different insights or experiences that are vastly different from mine; so it's hard to know exactly what is right for you and whether the amount of debt you will be  taking on will be worth it for what you will get out of it. For me, it was - for others, perhaps not.

That's just my 2 cents!

[alphazeta]

No.  Don't do it. Do not do it.

20k in tuition is a lot, and I'm assuming you'd also have to finance your living costs, which will not be cheap at Brandeis.  So you're either taking on what I'd imagine is 35k+ in debt or depleting savings by a comparable amount.  After that, you're off to grad school for 5+ years, where you'll make, optimistically, $20k.  That means you're not paying down that debt.  While it's possible that you'll be a star and graduate straight into a TT position at a top-10 where you'll make real money, the modal outcome is another year or two in a post-doc or VAP where, you'll make, say,  $40k, so some or all of that debt is still hanging over you.

With a GRE retake, a strong SOP, and the right letters of rec (particularly if they speak to any extenuating circumstances with respect to the GPA), the GPA won't disqualify you.  The grad school GPA will help some.  Give the PhD applications a shot.  If the best place that accepts you (with funding) is below what you're shooting for, go anyway and work your butt off for the first two years, then apply to the Top-X again.  There's nothing wrong with doing this and I've known people who have made it work.  At least you won't be taking on debt.

 

[GradSchoolTruther]

With those stats, you should have been able to get into a top 30 program. Maybe the SOP and LORs need strengthening? Did you use the term "political economics" in your SOP. The subfield is political economy, and is usually referred to as international political economy if you with to mesh IR with economics.

 

[valys]

Apologies for the delayed response - I didn't realize I wasn't getting notifications. Thank you for your help.

On 4/29/2016 at 1:48 PM, GradSchoolTruther said:

With those stats, you should have been able to get into a top 30 program. Maybe the SOP and LORs need strengthening? Did you use the term "political economics" in your SOP. The subfield is political economy, and is usually referred to as international political economy if you with to mesh IR with economics.

 

I've never applied to PhD programs... I wish I'd applied this year, but life, etcetera, etcetera. I applied to the M.A. program in March, after the PhD deadlines were all past. For LORs, I think they'd be average at best right now. I don't have anyone from the last four years who I could speak to my academic research skills.
 

On 4/29/2016 at 11:54 AM, alphazeta said:

20k in tuition is a lot, and I'm assuming you'd also have to finance your living costs, which will not be cheap at Brandeis. 

With a GRE retake, a strong SOP, and the right letters of rec (particularly if they speak to any extenuating circumstances with respect to the GPA), the GPA won't disqualify you.  The grad school GPA will help some.  Give the PhD applications a shot.  If the best place that accepts you (with funding) is below what you're shooting for, go anyway and work your butt off for the first two years, then apply to the Top-X again.  There's nothing wrong with doing this and I've known people who have made it work.  At least you won't be taking on debt.

I don't really have a good GPA excuse; I took hard classes after transferring and graduated early, and I could probably have a LOR mention that but I don't know that that really qualifies as extenuating. Anyway, do you think that the grad school GPA will help even though it's from an entirely different field? And I didn't realize PhD transferring was a possibility.

 

 

On 4/29/2016 at 6:14 AM, kwils76 said:

That was my undergrad cumulative GPA (though my in-major was much higher - about a 3.7). 

I did a masters and did very well in it and absolutely felt it was a boost to my application, for a few reasons:

1. It allowed me to have a grad GPA on my application which was much higher than my undergrad GPA.
2. It allowed me to demonstrate that I can handle graduate coursework well.
3. It allowed me to network with professors in my field and get some good LoR's from them. I absolutely believe that my grad advisor's connections helped me.
4. Most importantly I think, it allowed me to figure out my precise research area and delve into and demonstrate my research capabilities within that precise research area. My focus and competency here I think definitely showed in my applications, and it allowed me to pick specific programs to apply to that would be a good "fit" for me and explain in my SoP's why I felt they were a good fit.

That said, there are many, many paths to PhD programs and others may have different insights or experiences that are vastly different from mine; so it's hard to know exactly what is right for you and whether the amount of debt you will be  taking on will be worth it for what you will get out of it. For me, it was - for others, perhaps not.

That's just my 2 cents!

I think my major was around 3.7 too actually, but I'd have to look it up again to be sure. Points 1 and 3 are the main value I expect from this M.A., and a bit of 4 too since I'd think the professors will help me figure out exactly which programs I'd be best in. If you don't mind my asking, what tier of program were you ultimately able to get into?

[30rus]

i know this is not a favorable option for a lot of US based students, but why take 35k$ debt for an M.A. in Brandeis whilst you could do a Masters, if thats what you really want to do, in Europe's cheap countries, you earn an M.A. and i think the costs would be less and you've done more graduate coursework and a thesis. take for example Freie Berlin, Heidelberg in Germany or Universities in Belgium like VUB, ULB and KU Leuven, they usually have an annual fee of 800 Euro's and the living costs are quiet cheap. the Belgians ask for 620 euros monthly for your living costs.

[alphazeta]

18 hours ago, valys said:

I don't really have a good GPA excuse; I took hard classes after transferring and graduated early, and I could probably have a LOR mention that but I don't know that that really qualifies as extenuating. Anyway, do you think that the grad school GPA will help even though it's from an entirely different field? And I didn't realize PhD transferring was a possibility.

1) To be clear, there's no such thing as PhD transferring in a sense comparable to transferring in undergrad.  Rather, high-performing students at lower-ranked places often apply to higher-ranked places.  Your application is evaluated in the same pool and you'll be required to substantially start over.  You'll often be able to count some of your previous coursework towards requirements, but you still enter the new program as a "first year."

2) Yes the graduate school GPA should be helpful.  Like posters above, I do think that your application should be (should have been?) competitive for top 30 places.  A 3.47 undergrad isn't doing you any favors, but it's not horrible either.  

I need to say this again because it's important: Don't pay for a masters degree at Brandeis.  It's a waste of your money.

[davet73]

As far as a MA, I think what matters is what you get out of it. I wouldn't do a MA simply to improve my application to PhD programs. But even with that said, there could be some benefits.

As for me, I decided to do my MA at McGill University. The reason I decided to do a MA first was because I wanted to see if I really wanted to spend 4-5 years doing a PhD. A MA degree gives you the opportunity to decide if you want to do this as a career, if you want to spend hours reading literature and playing around on Stata, or if you can handle a PhD. So, if you are absolutely sure you want to do a PhD, I would just spend all of my time studying for the GRE. If you can replicate your GRE scores, then you should be fine. One of my friends was just accepted to Princeton with a 154Q/158V/5A GRE score, but their SoP and recommendations were strong. Your GRE will probably make up for you letters or recommendations. 

However, as I said, the MA can have great benefits, even if you know that you are going to do a PhD. At McGill, my supervisor is well known in the voting behavior community. Not only will he be giving me a strong letter of recommendation for my PhD applications, he also asked me to co-author a book chapter with him (which will be published later this year or early next year). So, my MA has already given me a publication. So, overall, my MA experience will probably help my PhD application, especially when competing with applicants who are coming straight out of a BA program who probably do not have a well defined area of study. Therefore, I would recommend finding a MA program that will give you the most bang for your buck. 

That is just my two cents. 

[grad16-17]

On 5/10/2016 at 3:43 AM, 30rus said:

i know this is not a favorable option for a lot of US based students, but why take 35k$ debt for an M.A. in Brandeis whilst you could do a Masters, if thats what you really want to do, in Europe's cheap countries, you earn an M.A. and i think the costs would be less and you've done more graduate coursework and a thesis. take for example Freie Berlin, Heidelberg in Germany or Universities in Belgium like VUB, ULB and KU Leuven, they usually have an annual fee of 800 Euro's and the living costs are quiet cheap. the Belgians ask for 620 euros monthly for your living costs.

Maybe people need to learn the Immigration loophole to consider that option.

[TemujinAmbition]

On 5/10/2016 at 3:43 AM, 30rus said:

i know this is not a favorable option for a lot of US based students, but why take 35k$ debt for an M.A. in Brandeis whilst you could do a Masters, if thats what you really want to do, in Europe's cheap countries, you earn an M.A. and i think the costs would be less and you've done more graduate coursework and a thesis. take for example Freie Berlin, Heidelberg in Germany or Universities in Belgium like VUB, ULB and KU Leuven, they usually have an annual fee of 800 Euro's and the living costs are quiet cheap. the Belgians ask for 620 euros monthly for your living costs.

Because Brandeis degree will probably take American further in their own country. Just like Heidelberg would probably take you a little further in Germany than Brandeis. 

[buckinghamubadger]

The one piece of advice I'd have for you as an MA student is this: if you do your MA, do it at a program that also has a PhD, so if you so chose, you can continue your studies there without losing anything. I did not do that, and there is a good chance that if I chose to go on to do a PhD, I will effectively have to do my entire masters over again, which I might do, but I'd be much more inclined to do the PhD if I could just start working on my disertation. The fatigue factor is real.

[MastersHoping]

Speaking from experience as someone who was just recently admitted to a Ph.D program after doing an expensive-as-hell master's:

Do.not.do.it.!

It will not help you as much as you'd think. Just take a few classes online if you want to brush up on your content knowledge (coursera, edx, futurelearn etc. are all places you could go for free, as well as Yale Open Courseware and MIT open Courseware). There are also much cheaper options than Brandeis. You're going to have a hell of a time paying back your student loans while living off your meager Ph.D salary. To pay back my student loans, it would take effectively two years of Ph.D funding if I didn't spend ANYTHING on things other than food and housing. It didn't help that I lived w/ a couple assholes from my program who screwed me over in rent, but that's a different story. There are much better ways to spend 20k a year.