top priorities for jobs

[Quantum Buckyball]

What do you value the most in a job? 

job security? location? salary? hours/schedule? work environment? challenging projects? 

Would you take on a job that pays

(1) 45K/yr with somewhat security in the middle of no where (non contract)

(2) 110K/yr at a dangerous place and in the middle of no where, no Walmart. (non contract) 

(3)  80K/yr in a big city with an average employee turnover rate of 5 years (non contract)

[biotechie]

I think that depends a lot on you as a person and where your priorities lie.

Right now, given my own current circumstances, I would probably go for option 3, provided that the big city was where my fiance is. Five years would be long enough for me to get some decent experience or complete my whole postdoc (obviously for lower) and hopefully decide where I need to end up, next and get there.

However, if I could go anywhere I wanted and he could follow to also get a job, I would probably pick option number one. I'd rather have job security with guaranteed income, and, having grown up in the middle of nowhere, I'm totally okay with that. For me, that would be the most comfortable of those options.

What you don't mention is how fulfilling those jobs will be. Will you be happiest going to the 45k job? If so, that's the one I would consider. I want projects that challenge me, but don't overwork me. Right now, I'm happy to work 60 hours a week, but I won't always be that way, I'm sure. I want the opportunity to mentor and teach others as well, and I won't get that everywhere.

Does that make sense?

[TakeruK]

1 hour ago, Quantum Buckyball said:

What do you value the most in a job? 

job security? location? salary? hours/schedule? work environment? challenging projects? 

Would you take on a job that pays

(1) 45K/yr with somewhat security in the middle of no where (non contract)

(2) 110K/yr at a dangerous place and in the middle of no where, no Walmart. (non contract) 

(3)  80K/yr in a big city with an average employee turnover rate of 5 years (non contract)

I would probably pick #3 right now. I'm not worried about the 5 year turnover rate because in today's world, it's not that rare to move on to different jobs after a few years. This is assuming that I get to choose which city #3 is in. Also, I'm assuming that in all three cases, the job is something that is not a "dead end" in the sense that if I leave any of these positions, I would still be employable at the same or a higher level.

I'm thinking about jobs now too since I will be on the job market this fall. Out of your list, the things I value, in order, are (for the next 5 years):

1. Location: I want to live in a big city and one that is near a hub airport. I want to live in a place where I feel safe (for a big city), where I can find good food from my culture, where there are fun things to do. There is one city that I would really want to live in more than others and would potentially most of the rest of the items for the right location.

2. Salary: To me, the point of a job is to pay for and support a life that I want. So, the salary needs to be enough to support this. This is related to the first point of course, as some cities are more expensive than others!

3. Hours/Schedule: I don't want to work a job where I work 60 hours per week. If it's not in academia, I want something that is 40 hours per week, with regular hours. If it's in academia, then since the topic interests me more, I'd be willing to work more hours since the work would be more enjoyable. But ultimately, as I said above, the point of working is to support the life I want to have outside of work, so there's no point making a lot of money but not having time to spend it.

4. Work Environment: I'd like to not be miserable at work---it would be nice  This is related to the next point too.

5. Challenging projects: I'm interpreting this as "job satisfaction". It would be nice, but not necessary, to be working on something I'm passionate about. It would be preferable to be working on something that utilizes my skills and experience. But I would sacrifice this for the other points above, if necessary.

6. Job security: For this part of my life, I'm not looking for long term job security. Even though this is the bottom of the list, it's still an important factor for me, and I'd say that I would probably not take a job that I don't think I can keep for at least 2 years. But at this stage in my life, 2 years is long enough for me. 5 years is practically permanent. I feel that whatever job I take right after graduation isn't going to be a permanent thing for me, but instead, a stepping stone to the next path on a career. 

Again, all 6 factors here are important to me, I'm just ranking them because there is an order of priority. The lower ranked ones are ranked that way because I have lower "standards" in these factors! And, I expect these will change with time. I imagine that job security would be more important to me in the future, for example. This is just for my next job, not a choice for the rest of my life!

[Quantum Buckyball]

I just wanted to be able to buy a house with a basement and a backyard in a somewhat safe area. I can see myself enjoying (1) job because it's meaningful and you actually get to interact with people. The option (3) is also good but I've been to big cities like NYC before and really hated it, it was too fast-paced. As for option (2), I probably won't do it because everyday could be my last day there, it's THAT dangerous  

[rising_star]

@Quantum Buckyball, are these hypothetical options or real options? There's a huge difference between the two. As in, for option 2, there's probably somewhere around there that you could live that would be safer, unless you're saying that this job is outside the Green Zone in Afghanistan or something like that (I say this as someone who has lived in a very dangerous country in the past and would do it again). Do you know much about the actual job you'd be doing and how those compare to both what you want to do and the kinds of things you like doing? What are the coworkers and supervisors like in each job? I ask because even if you love the work, the people around you can make a job absolutely miserable (I've had it happen to me before). 

[juilletmercredi]

Five years is actually a pretty long turnover rate in today's world.

I would probably pick #2 or #3 depending on what "the middle of nowhere" was and what the city was. There are few places in the U.S. that are both very dangerous and also so far out in the boondocks that there is no Wal-Mart and no equivalent stores. (Also, the absence of a Wal-Mart is not necessarily a bad thing - there are lots of other places to go grocery shopping and get inexpensive goods, and honestly, the produce and selection is better at grocery stores.) I don't think I would really want to live in New York or Boston or Chicago, though - not unless I was making a huge salary, and probably not even then. It's not that $80K isn't enough to live on in New York, but it's just that I know I'd be living out my life in a small apartment rather than in a larger condo or house. If the middle of nowhere was like 2 hours from a major city I could make that work for a little while.

 

What's important to me? When I was looking for jobs these were the things that were important:

1) Job satisfaction: I wanted a job that was challenging and intellectually stimulating, one in which I could work on interesting projects. Something that was research or felt like research (like consulting) was important to me. I also wanted a job that had immediate applications to improvements or changes in some kind of outcome (process, product, didn't matter).

2) Work/life balance: I knew that I wanted to work somewhere between 40 and 50 hours most week and generally keep a regular 9-5ish type of schedule. I didn't want my work to follow me home.

3) Location: I wanted to live in a medium-sized major city with lots of shopping, good restaurants, cultural activities, music venues, etc. (By medium-sized i meant no New York, Boston, Chicago, San Francisco; something like Austin, Portland, Seattle, Denver, Pittsburgh, Charlotte in size. Something in the 2-5 million range, as far as population in the metro area goes. I was willing to make an exception for DC and maybe LA.) There were a couple reasons for this - smaller cities tend to be less dense and individual people have more space, and I wanted some space. But I also knew that I wanted to get really integrated into the community and do a lot of networking, and it's easier when the community is smaller. I also like the outdoors and wanted to be somewhere with beautiful scenery and great outdoors activities available and accessible. And I didn't want it to be ridiculously expensive. I knew I wanted to live in a less-dense area, too.

Related to this was weather: I was DONE with the bitterly cold winters of the Northeast. While doing location research I became completely enamored with the weather on most of the West Coast of the U.S. The Pacific Northwest has rainy, mild winters and warm, beautiful, sunny summers. And then California from the Bay Area on down just has sunshine and warmth all up. After a certain point I was concentrating my job search primarily in California and the PNW (also the industry I entered, technology, is mostly there), and secondarily in the Southeast in smaller cities between DC and Atlanta (Raleigh, Charlotte, Richmond, etc.)

4) Co-workers: I wanted people I could work with, and a collaborative environment where people helped each other, worked on projects together, and maybe got lunch or coffee together.

5) Salary: I had a certain number in mind and I wanted to make more than that.

6) Structure: I wanted my job to have some structure. I like having organizational structure and a flow of products in place. I didn't really want to choose what I worked on; rather, I wanted to have the autonomy to be given a project and handle it however I saw fit, but with tools and processes to make that work.

7) Professional development opportunities: I wanted to go somewhere I felt I could get promoted and go up the corporate ladder. It didn't necessarily need to be in the same company, but I know that my goals are to move into management and then leadership some day, so I wanted to go some place I could achieve that.

8) Locational security: I really wanted to work at a company I knew I could stay at for at least 3-5 years. I was tired of moving around every couple of years and I wanted to stay put. But, more importantly, I wanted to move to a metro area I knew that I could live for at least the next 10-15+ years. I wanted to invest and play the long game in a particular area. I wanted to develop long-term friendships and connections. So I new that I needed to find a city that not only had my company but had other companies in my field/sector that I could hop to to develop my career, if I wanted. I didn't want to have to move again should I choose to move on from my job in 5 years.

9) Reputation/prestige: OK, I am willing to admit - I wanted to work for a company that most people have heard of, potentially working on products that most people have heard of as well. This wasn't as important to me as the other elements on my list but it was something i wanted.

Edited May 12, 2016 by juilletmercredi

[Quantum Buckyball]

On 5/12/2016 at 10:19 PM, rising_star said:

@Quantum Buckyball, are these hypothetical options or real options? There's a huge difference between the two. As in, for option 2, there's probably somewhere around there that you could live that would be safer, unless you're saying that this job is outside the Green Zone in Afghanistan or something like that (I say this as someone who has lived in a very dangerous country in the past and would do it again). Do you know much about the actual job you'd be doing and how those compare to both what you want to do and the kinds of things you like doing? What are the coworkers and supervisors like in each job? I ask because even if you love the work, the people around you can make a job absolutely miserable (I've had it happen to me before). 

hypothetical and real, the real one is option (3) 

I saw that there are a good number of job opportunities at weird places, found a couple that wants you to move to Middle East..and I was like, umm.....no.

Yes I have a clear picture regarding the job duties and expectations for option (3), but regarding to coworkers and supervisors, the company has a rating of 4.1 out of 5 stars on Glassdoor so I guess that's good ? 

My dad was saying that your first job ain't gonna be your last job, you cannot be too picky nowadays especially when you have zero industry, it's not the same picking a research group for PhD. 

[Quantum Buckyball]

On 5/12/2016 at 6:00 AM, juilletmercredi said:

Five years is actually a pretty long turnover rate in today's world.

I would probably pick #2 or #3 depending on what "the middle of nowhere" was and what the city was. There are few places in the U.S. that are both very dangerous and also so far out in the boondocks that there is no Wal-Mart and no equivalent stores. (Also, the absence of a Wal-Mart is not necessarily a bad thing - there are lots of other places to go grocery shopping and get inexpensive goods, and honestly, the produce and selection is better at grocery stores.) I don't think I would really want to live in New York or Boston or Chicago, though - not unless I was making a huge salary, and probably not even then. It's not that $80K isn't enough to live on in New York, but it's just that I know I'd be living out my life in a small apartment rather than in a larger condo or house. If the middle of nowhere was like 2 hours from a major city I could make that work for a little while.

 

What's important to me? When I was looking for jobs these were the things that were important:

1) Job satisfaction: I wanted a job that was challenging and intellectually stimulating, one in which I could work on interesting projects. Something that was research or felt like research (like consulting) was important to me. I also wanted a job that had immediate applications to improvements or changes in some kind of outcome (process, product, didn't matter).

2) Work/life balance: I knew that I wanted to work somewhere between 40 and 50 hours most week and generally keep a regular 9-5ish type of schedule. I didn't want my work to follow me home.

3) Location: I wanted to live in a medium-sized major city with lots of shopping, good restaurants, cultural activities, music venues, etc. (By medium-sized i meant no New York, Boston, Chicago, San Francisco; something like Austin, Portland, Seattle, Denver, Pittsburgh, Charlotte in size. Something in the 2-5 million range, as far as population in the metro area goes. I was willing to make an exception for DC and maybe LA.) There were a couple reasons for this - smaller cities tend to be less dense and individual people have more space, and I wanted some space. But I also knew that I wanted to get really integrated into the community and do a lot of networking, and it's easier when the community is smaller. I also like the outdoors and wanted to be somewhere with beautiful scenery and great outdoors activities available and accessible. And I didn't want it to be ridiculously expensive. I knew I wanted to live in a less-dense area, too.

Related to this was weather: I was DONE with the bitterly cold winters of the Northeast. While doing location research I became completely enamored with the weather on most of the West Coast of the U.S. The Pacific Northwest has rainy, mild winters and warm, beautiful, sunny summers. And then California from the Bay Area on down just has sunshine and warmth all up. After a certain point I was concentrating my job search primarily in California and the PNW (also the industry I entered, technology, is mostly there), and secondarily in the Southeast in smaller cities between DC and Atlanta (Raleigh, Charlotte, Richmond, etc.)

4) Co-workers: I wanted people I could work with, and a collaborative environment where people helped each other, worked on projects together, and maybe got lunch or coffee together.

5) Salary: I had a certain number in mind and I wanted to make more than that.

6) Structure: I wanted my job to have some structure. I like having organizational structure and a flow of products in place. I didn't really want to choose what I worked on; rather, I wanted to have the autonomy to be given a project and handle it however I saw fit, but with tools and processes to make that work.

7) Professional development opportunities: I wanted to go somewhere I felt I could get promoted and go up the corporate ladder. It didn't necessarily need to be in the same company, but I know that my goals are to move into management and then leadership some day, so I wanted to go some place I could achieve that.

8) Locational security: I really wanted to work at a company I knew I could stay at for at least 3-5 years. I was tired of moving around every couple of years and I wanted to stay put. But, more importantly, I wanted to move to a metro area I knew that I could live for at least the next 10-15+ years. I wanted to invest and play the long game in a particular area. I wanted to develop long-term friendships and connections. So I new that I needed to find a city that not only had my company but had other companies in my field/sector that I could hop to to develop my career, if I wanted. I didn't want to have to move again should I choose to move on from my job in 5 years.

9) Reputation/prestige: OK, I am willing to admit - I wanted to work for a company that most people have heard of, potentially working on products that most people have heard of as well. This wasn't as important to me as the other elements on my list but it was something i wanted.

I found a couple places that are either near the board to Mexico, or in the middle of a desert. My PI was telling me that you don't really know what you like to do until you go through 2 or 3 different kinds of job. As for right now, I'd rather take on a lower paying job in a decent area than a high paying job in the middle of no where, especially when the company only let you work M-F 9-5 , like what in the world are you gonna do with your free time? Netflix binging?

[themmases]

I would definitely take option 3. $80K is plenty of money in Chicago! And 5 years is a long time, especially in a big city where you should be able to find something else.

A couple of years before leaving my job, I wrote my priorities out to think about. Actually I haven't felt the need to make changes to it since I wrote it in 2012.

• Use and am recognized for my skills: data analysis, content area knowledge (trying to get away from doing as much writing and editing unless it's for my own work or I'm getting paid extra)
• Collaborative environment
• My work makes a positive contribution to society; it's a meaningful and moral use of my time and skills given that I can't invest them everywhere.
• I can meet my own needs; I have basic security in terms of health care, compensation, feeling safe and respected at work, and so do my coworkers. Part of that for me is that if I feel I need to leave a certain project or pull back from working with a certain person, I could.

I chose my field in large part because of my first point. I like study design and data analysis but was feeling passed over at it when I worked in medical research. I contributed a lot but people who really didn't know much about epidemiology would fail to include me or include me but act like they were doing me a favor. I specifically sought out training in this field so that the whole point of having me on a team would be to have my input into those things.

I am not really interested in ever leaving Chicago although I would be open to another city, preferably Midwestern, for the right opportunity. I work in a public service field, I am interested in health inequities, and all my life I have benefited from IL public services. I think staying and using my skills to serve my neighbors is the right thing to do, and I'm optimistic about getting to do it because my research is very tied to conditions in Chicago specifically. Sorry I sound like my SOP right now but... That is my real opinion.

I'd love to do academic research right here in the future, because I'm pretty familiar with the health care field in this city and I know I'm at one of the better places to be. I'd also be interested in being part of a methods core or a staff epidemiologist or statistician for a health related organization such as a hospital, public health department, or professional medical organization. I actually really like working on other people's projects as long as the respect is there. It's more of a challenge to solve a problem on someone else's project you might never have thought of.

Chicago is not that high cost of living for a major city, and my partner and I already live comfortably even though I don't make that much money. I don't mind not having a lot of space as long as I'm near parks and campus or coffee shops or something. I think after we finally move to a 2-bedroom apartment this year (so we can have a home office), I will be set for a long time.

[rising_star]

3 hours ago, Quantum Buckyball said:

Yes I have a clear picture regarding the job duties and expectations for option (3), but regarding to coworkers and supervisors, the company has a rating of 4.1 out of 5 stars on Glassdoor so I guess that's good ? 

If it's a place you actually can't live, then that's one thing. But, because I've lived all over the place, including in places which don't have a Wal-Mart or anything similar, I've realized that the things I absolutely can't live without is a smaller list than I'd thought previously, at least if we're talking short-term (by which I mean 3 years or less). Have you actually met with your potential future supervisor and coworkers? Just because a place has a good rating overall doesn't mean that you would have a good experience working with those particular people.

2 hours ago, Quantum Buckyball said:

I found a couple places that are either near the board to Mexico, or in the middle of a desert. My PI was telling me that you don't really know what you like to do until you go through 2 or 3 different kinds of job. As for right now, I'd rather take on a lower paying job in a decent area than a high paying job in the middle of no where, especially when the company only let you work M-F 9-5 , like what in the world are you gonna do with your free time? Netflix binging?

So I've spent time along the Mexican border and can say with confidence that some places are safer and more interesting than others. Same for places "in the middle of the desert". I'm not sure if you're into outdoors stuff at all but there's quite a lot to do in the desert or the middle of nowhere. Also, every city/town has some stuff to do in your free time besides binge on Netflix unless you seriously don't have any hobbies, interests, or desire to socialize with others. I really hate the attitude that living in the middle of nowhere means you have to be bored out of your mind all the time because that's only as true as you want it to be.

Personally, I'd probably choose the job that pays more provided it'll give me experience needed to get the next job AND is within 2 hours drive of a major airport. Why? Because you can use the extra money to take weekend trips to all those other places you want to go, visit your friends and family, save for retirement or a major vacation, etc. I've found that living in a place without tons to do makes it easier to save money AND means I can really enjoy myself when I do travel because I don't have to worry about pinching pennies.

All of this aside, in the end, a bird in the hand is better than two in the bush. The job offer you have is better than hypothetical job officers which may never come.

[ShogunT]

 

On 5/11/2016 at 10:55 PM, Quantum Buckyball said:

What do you value the most in a job? 

job security? location? salary? hours/schedule? work environment? challenging projects? 

 

 

Projects match my interest and expertise > work environment > job security > salary > rest

First, I am confident that I could do good in any jobs and do best in those in my expertise. Second, I want to be part of or lead an energetic and synergetic team, not a chaotic collection of highly skilled individuals. Moreover, many (famous/big name) PhDs I have had chances to work with (when I did my internship) were kind, modest and really cooperative. They have imprinted an impression to me that an open and cooperative work environment is the prerequisites to individual success. Third, the current market is volatile, so, I would not risk myself in an irrelevant position in a sinking ship even I get paid more (opportunity cost). Fourth, it is obvious.

 

Would you take on a job that pays

(1) 45K/yr with somewhat security in the middle of no where (non contract)

(2) 110K/yr at a dangerous place and in the middle of no where, no Walmart. (non contract) 

(3)  80K/yr in a big city with an average employee turnover rate of 5 years (non contract)

 

(3) seems to be the best out of three. 5-yr turnover seems like a long period of time. Many non-contract employments end within one to two years.

Which one of them offers you the mean to advance your career? If you can set salary aside for a while..

[Quantum Buckyball]

On 5/13/2016 at 7:11 PM, rising_star said:

If it's a place you actually can't live, then that's one thing. But, because I've lived all over the place, including in places which don't have a Wal-Mart or anything similar, I've realized that the things I absolutely can't live without is a smaller list than I'd thought previously, at least if we're talking short-term (by which I mean 3 years or less). Have you actually met with your potential future supervisor and coworkers? Just because a place has a good rating overall doesn't mean that you would have a good experience working with those particular people.

So I've spent time along the Mexican border and can say with confidence that some places are safer and more interesting than others. Same for places "in the middle of the desert". I'm not sure if you're into outdoors stuff at all but there's quite a lot to do in the desert or the middle of nowhere. Also, every city/town has some stuff to do in your free time besides binge on Netflix unless you seriously don't have any hobbies, interests, or desire to socialize with others. I really hate the attitude that living in the middle of nowhere means you have to be bored out of your mind all the time because that's only as true as you want it to be.

Personally, I'd probably choose the job that pays more provided it'll give me experience needed to get the next job AND is within 2 hours drive of a major airport. Why? Because you can use the extra money to take weekend trips to all those other places you want to go, visit your friends and family, save for retirement or a major vacation, etc. I've found that living in a place without tons to do makes it easier to save money AND means I can really enjoy myself when I do travel because I don't have to worry about pinching pennies.

All of this aside, in the end, a bird in the hand is better than two in the bush. The job offer you have is better than hypothetical job officers which may never come.

I really hate snow, especially after talking to someone from Boston it made me really not want to take on the job offer from option 3. ...I don't want to have to deal with...45 min/one way for 3 mile commute everyday...

[rising_star]

13 minutes ago, Quantum Buckyball said:

I really hate snow, especially after talking to someone from Boston it made me really not want to take on the job offer from option 3. ...I don't want to have to deal with...45 min/one way for 3 mile commute everyday...

I hate snow too. I currently live in a place with snow because it's where the job I wanted was. I deal with it by living walking distance to work so the weather never really affects my commute. There are ways to deal with almost anything. You just have to decide whether it's worth making those compromises to do so.

[Quantum Buckyball]

6 hours ago, rising_star said:

I hate snow too. I currently live in a place with snow because it's where the job I wanted was. I deal with it by living walking distance to work so the weather never really affects my commute. There are ways to deal with almost anything. You just have to decide whether it's worth making those compromises to do so.

I totally agreed with you, I have been having doubts recently as I know I have anxiety problems and I don't know if taking on a job that is fast-paced and high-stressed is a good idea, especially in the field of biopharmaceutical where its profit-driven and highly volatile. On top of that, I really don't like snow and cramped area, I have only been to NYC twice before and really hated both times. I'm seriously considering to just become a high school science teacher in the rural area and live a simple life.