Ask questions about the PhD application process!

[Bioenchilada]

8 hours ago, Born-to-pipette said:

Y'all -- a tad late to the game, but I just caught up with all the messages discussing fit/prestige/etc. It seems to me that fit, while incredibly important, seems like a rather nebulous concept. Any chance someone might be able to chime in on a more concrete breakdown of "fit"? 

My understanding is mainly:

1) research fit - interests aligned with multiple PIs. however, like blc previously mentioned, interests can also shift, so I've tried not to be too restrictive

2) location - place you would be happy living for 5-7 years

3) structure of program - e.g., clinical orientation, umbrella vs specific program admission

I, however, still have 3 schools too many. Namely, I'm on the fence re: Harvard, UCSF, Hopkins, partially because research fit is just okay (although they are excellent in cancer and immunology at large) and partially because $300/lots of time on applying to THREE MORE extremely competitive schools when I have plenty of schools on my list that are already super competitive. The fact that I have 10 schools on my list (even without the aforementioned 3) makes me think that I'm potentially not evaluating enough factors when considering "fit."

What are other factors that others have considered? What are these nebulous "things we need to succeed"? Student support for conferences, etc.? Opportunities for teaching (also, opportunities to avoid TA requirements)? Are these even things I should consider this prior to applying or after I gain admission to a few schools?

I feel like there's a limit to how much you can get prior from your interview, where they bombard you with what makes the program great. Prior to applying, I think it's good enough to be pleased with the program structure and location, and that you feel you have plenty of options to choose from in terms of PIs, even in fields or topics that are not particularly of interest. If you feel like you would want to explore other fields or would like a lot of crosstalk amongst faculty and research, make sure that your program supports doing rotations in different topics and actually promotes interdisciplinary work. Umbrella programs are typically great at doing this. In my opinion, I wouldn't apply to schools where the fit is just okay. It gets hard to choose interviewers and to keep your motivation going, which could show and kill your chances during the interview. I didn't enjoy the interview weekends at the schools where the fit was decent, but that might just be me. 

Just make sure that you can write something about, lets say Harvard, besides saying that it's Harvard and it has PIs you want to work with. I, for one, focused on outreach an diversity groups in some schools or emphasized how, in my field, being in a school where there was a lot of collaboration would lead to the best learning experience, opportunities for translational research, etc...

[Born-to-pipette]

On 10/13/2016 at 7:36 AM, Bioenchilada said:

I feel like there's a limit to how much you can get prior from your interview, where they bombard you with what makes the program great. Prior to applying, I think it's good enough to be pleased with the program structure and location, and that you feel you have plenty of options to choose from in terms of PIs, even in fields or topics that are not particularly of interest. If you feel like you would want to explore other fields or would like a lot of crosstalk amongst faculty and research, make sure that your program supports doing rotations in different topics and actually promotes interdisciplinary work. Umbrella programs are typically great at doing this. In my opinion, I wouldn't apply to schools where the fit is just okay. It gets hard to choose interviewers and to keep your motivation going, which could show and kill your chances during the interview. I didn't enjoy the interview weekends at the schools where the fit was decent, but that might just be me. 

Just make sure that you can write something about, lets say Harvard, besides saying that it's Harvard and it has PIs you want to work with. I, for one, focused on outreach an diversity groups in some schools or emphasized how, in my field, being in a school where there was a lot of collaboration would lead to the best learning experience, opportunities for translational research, etc...

Thank you -- this is definitely a helpful perspective! I'm trying not to stress terribly much about how well I know the schools -- just trying to get the basics and waiting for the interviews to get to know the programs in more depth 

[blc073]

28 minutes ago, Born-to-pipette said:

Thank you -- this is definitely a helpful perspective! I'm trying not to stress terribly much about how well I know the schools -- just trying to get the basics and waiting for the interviews to get to know the programs in more depth 

I had to double take when you said the research fit at Harvard is "just okay." What are you considering a good fit for research? 

In your initial evaluation, you should look at location, research fit (are there five or so faculty with whom you can see yourself working?), and funding (are you guaranteed funding for the duration of your PhD?). Make your list based on those criteria. When you interview, you will find the right place for you. Also, I would honestly cap it at eight applications. I did eight applications, which led to six interviews, and the six consecutive weeks of traveling was incredibly exhausting. I cancelled  interviews because I could not see myself traveling for eight weeks in a row. 

 

Edited October 18, 2016 by blc073

[AGradStudentHasNoName]

Hey @bcl073, when are all of the interviews? I am planning a trip to south africa and want to avoid these times. I assume they are mid to late January through mid to late February?

[biotechie]

58 minutes ago, AGradStudentHasNoName said:

Hey @bcl073, when are all of the interviews? I am planning a trip to south africa and want to avoid these times. I assume they are mid to late January through mid to late February?

My interviews were all mid-January through February, though I did get an invite for mid-March that I declined.

[AGradStudentHasNoName]

Here is another question. Several of my projects are unpublished, but I have written what some would call white papers (though I find it a pretentious term so how about technical documents). They include detailed explanations of the project as well as figures and references. I don't really expect anyone to go look at these, but I have them on my website. Is it okay to reference these documents in the personal statement in the same way I would reference a website? I also reference several published papers and patents (either by me or relevant prior work on the subject). Is it super weird to have several references in your personal statement? Currently I have 8 or 9... And in my head I'm not really counting them toward the "length" of the statement except when explicitly given a page limit (such as the NSF GRFP statement). So the length is somewhere 1.5-2 pages and then references.

So I guess 2 questions. 1. references in SOP? good? bad? neutral? and 2. references for unpublished work in SOP?

[Bioenchilada]

18 minutes ago, AGradStudentHasNoName said:

Here is another question. Several of my projects are unpublished, but I have written what some would call white papers (though I find it a pretentious term so how about technical documents). They include detailed explanations of the project as well as figures and references. I don't really expect anyone to go look at these, but I have them on my website. Is it okay to reference these documents in the personal statement in the same way I would reference a website? I also reference several published papers and patents (either by me or relevant prior work on the subject). Is it super weird to have several references in your personal statement? Currently I have 8 or 9... And in my head I'm not really counting them toward the "length" of the statement except when explicitly given a page limit (such as the NSF GRFP statement). So the length is somewhere 1.5-2 pages and then references.

So I guess 2 questions. 1. references in SOP? good? bad? neutral? and 2. references for unpublished work in SOP?

Dont put references on your SOP. Also, I wouldn't cite your own white papers nor unpublished work. Maybe you could mention your work  if it's in the process of being published, if you mention it at all. 

Also, most interviews are in mid January to mid February.  

Edited October 19, 2016 by Bioenchilada

[AGradStudentHasNoName]

I take your point. However I have seen some NSF winning SOP's (not the research proposal, the SOP) cite papers so I can't imagine it hurts that much. In fact, writing about a subject without citing the relevant prior work seems disingenuous.

And I would like to clarify something. These projects are not "unpublished research", they are industry R&D and are now incorporated into products. Those products have since been used by scientists external to the company to write several nature and science papers. Companies generally only publish as a means of advertisement and do so sparingly because of the time cost.

[Bioenchilada]

11 minutes ago, AGradStudentHasNoName said:

I take your point. However I have seen some NSF winning SOP's (not the research proposal, the SOP) cite papers so I can't imagine it hurts that much. In fact, writing about a subject without citing the relevant prior work seems disingenuous.

And I would like to clarify something. These projects are not "unpublished research", they are industry R&D and are now incorporated into products. Those products have since been used by scientists external to the company to write several nature and science papers. Companies generally only publish as a means of advertisement and do so sparingly because of the time cost.

I mean, you can format your SOP however you think you'll get your point across. I don't think you'll get rejected over citing work, I'm just saying that it can be a little off-format. In research presentations (power points), you tend to cite figures only because they show experimental data that does not belong to you; however, you don't cite every single bullet point even if you didn't discover what you're talking about and lay the foundational knowledge. Documents can be called the same and still require different formats; however, I don't think a GRADUATE SCHOOL SOP is the best place for you to talk extensively about foundational knowledge that requires citing. Could it be seen as disingineous? Perhaps, but it is only a formatting matter--though I understand your stance of citing everything that does not belong to you. 

In the end, as I said earlier, you do you booboo. 

[Born-to-pipette]

On 10/18/2016 at 2:00 PM, blc073 said:

I had to double take when you said the research fit at Harvard is "just okay." What are you considering a good fit for research? 

In your initial evaluation, you should look at location, research fit (are there five or so faculty with whom you can see yourself working?), and funding (are you guaranteed funding for the duration of your PhD?). Make your list based on those criteria. When you interview, you will find the right place for you. Also, I would honestly cap it at eight applications. I did eight applications, which led to six interviews, and the six consecutive weeks of traveling was incredibly exhausting. I cancelled  interviews because I could not see myself traveling for eight weeks in a row. 

 

Great fit = ~5-6 faculty working in cancer immunology whose labs I would be interested in joining. Decent fit = less than that but with some potential cancer bio (non immunology) PIs. Since my initial post, I did find other faculty at Harvard whose work are quite intriguing. Also drawn to the academic freedom Harvard seems to offer -- being able to choose my own curriculum sounds AMAZING. And I'd already looked through some of the course options and there are quite a few that are appealing. Getting to tailor coursework according to my interests and future goals...that's a rare find. So, it looks like I'll be attempting an application... 

Your point re: too many applications is well taken. When I told one of my previous PI's that I was applying to 10 schools, she was like "ain't no one has time for that many interviews." HOWEVER, that is contingent on actually getting interview offers from that many schools... And since one is applying to quite competitive programs, one feels the need to increase her N  But there are a few schools where the research fit is just okay, and I can knock 1-2 off my list.

[DGD4L]

@blc073, I saw you are in the BBS at Harvard and  @Bioenchilada , you are at UPenn. I'm looking into both of your programs for acceptance in the Fall 2017. I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit about what your stats were as undergrads when you were applying to these programs! 

I'm trying to determine my chances at these places so I can narrow my application choices. 

[Bioenchilada]

 

24 minutes ago, DGD4L said:

@blc073, I saw you are in the BBS at Harvard and  @Bioenchilada , you are at UPenn. I'm looking into both of your programs for acceptance in the Fall 2017. I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit about what your stats were as undergrads when you were applying to these programs! 

I'm trying to determine my chances at these places so I can narrow my application choices. 

 

Undergrad Institution: Big 10 School
Major(s): Double Majoring in Cell Biology and Genetics
Minor(s): Anthropology, Biotechnology 
GPA in Major: 3.9
Overall GPA: 3.96
Position in Class: Top 
Type of Student: Domestic Minority (Hispanic) 

GRE Scores (revised/old version):
Q: 159 (75%)
V: 155 (67%)

W: 4 (56%)
B: N/A


Research Experience: 

6 semesters of research (3 in a pharmacology lab and 3 in cell biology)

6 semester of involvement in HHMI-sponsored research project (SEA-PHAGES). 2 of these were spent as a student (project is actually presented as a research-oriented course) and 4 have been spent peer mentoring. 

5th Annual SEA-PHAGES National Symposium Speaker and Poster Presenter 

Summer internship (SHURP) at Harvard Medical School (BBS) 

Summer internship (SUIP) at the University of Pennsylvania 

Oral Presentation (2X) at Leadership Alliance National Symposium (LANS)

Coauthor in research paper published in eLife on HHMI Phage project 

Awards/Honors/Recognitions: 

Recipient of multiple competitive (and merit) scholarships at home institution. Recipient of 2 4-year "external" scholarships.

Pertinent Activities or Jobs: 

Peer mentor for HHMI funded project for 4 semesters. 

Member of selective undergraduate advisory group for the school of biological sciences at home institution. 

Any Miscellaneous Accomplishments that Might Help:

Special Bonus Points: 

I've taken several grad classes at home institution, made connections while doing my internships, and one of my recommenders is famous. I'm also Hispanic and gay, if that helps hahaha 
 

[blc073]

3 hours ago, DGD4L said:

@blc073, I saw you are in the BBS at Harvard and  @Bioenchilada , you are at UPenn. I'm looking into both of your programs for acceptance in the Fall 2017. I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit about what your stats were as undergrads when you were applying to these programs! 

I'm trying to determine my chances at these places so I can narrow my application choices. 

I had an average GPA (3.5) and an average GRE (310), but I can write well, I had four amazing LORs, and I had seven semesters and four summers of research experience. 

[Born-to-pipette]

4 hours ago, blc073 said:

I had an average GPA (3.5) and an average GRE (310), but I can write well, I had four amazing LORs, and I had seven semesters and four summers of research experience. 

Did you happen to receive offers of admission from all 6 programs you interviewed with? Seems like interview offers are where 80% of applicants are weeded out, with only half of those who interview get an offer.

[blc073]

5 minutes ago, Born-to-pipette said:

Did you happen to receive offers of admission from all 6 programs you interviewed with? Seems like interview offers are where 80% of applicants are weeded out, with only half of those who interview get an offer.

I received an offer from Harvard before I interviewed anywhere else, so I did not exactly put a lot of effort into my other interviews. I was only offered a position at one other university (UChicago). I think most places could tell that I was not interested. 

Edited October 21, 2016 by blc073

[Bioenchilada]

24 minutes ago, Born-to-pipette said:

Did you happen to receive offers of admission from all 6 programs you interviewed with? Seems like interview offers are where 80% of applicants are weeded out, with only half of those who interview get an offer.

Actually, acceptance rates post-interview are typically higher than 80%, at least the places I interviewed at. Of course, this means their pre-interview standards might be more stringent. Generally, if they invite you, they want you  

(It wouldn't make sense to pay everyone to go to a school to interview to then reject half of them. And, stats dont matter post interview) 

Edited October 21, 2016 by Bioenchilada

[Born-to-pipette]

1 hour ago, Bioenchilada said:

Actually, acceptance rates post-interview are typically higher than 80%, at least the places I interviewed at. Of course, this means their pre-interview standards might be more stringent. Generally, if they invite you, they want you  

(It wouldn't make sense to pay everyone to go to a school to interview to then reject half of them. And, stats dont matter post interview) 

that's what I thought too!! Because that's what makes sense, right? And it's what I've heard in the past. But i called a few schools to ask a few questions (which btw one of your UPenn coordinators was the nicest human ever. like seriously went out of her way to answer my questions.) and they indicated it was closer to 50%. but that might be more accurate for smaller programs. my institution, for example, accepts one third of interviewees.

[Black Beauty]

Bioenchilada You answered a question I wanted to ask awhile ago. I was going to ask if schools paid for your travel and room when they want you to come in for an interview.

[Bioenchilada]

28 minutes ago, Black Beauty said:

Bioenchilada You answered a question I wanted to ask awhile ago. I was going to ask if schools paid for your travel and room when they want you to come in for an interview.

They do. Some have a reimbursement policy but they'll pay for you upfront if you tell them you can't afford it.

[Bioenchilada]

48 minutes ago, Born-to-pipette said:

that's what I thought too!! Because that's what makes sense, right? And it's what I've heard in the past. But i called a few schools to ask a few questions (which btw one of your UPenn coordinators was the nicest human ever. like seriously went out of her way to answer my questions.) and they indicated it was closer to 50%. but that might be more accurate for smaller programs. my institution, for example, accepts one third of interviewees.

UPenn's CAMB received 503 applications, interviewed 121, and accepted 108. This yields a ~90% acceptance rate post-interview and a ~20% overall acceptance rate. Many umbrella programs at top schools have acceptance rates of more or less ~20% , unlike undergrad admissions. This does not tell you a single bit about their credentials though, and applicant pools are VERY different. Also, if you manage to get multiple interviews at top schools, odds are you end up seeing familiar faces throughout!

[Edotdl]

I'll join this thread. I'm on the computational (neuro) side for those of you interested in that. I interviewed at UCSF Neuro, MIT BCS, Caltech CNS, JHU BME, and Berkeley/UCSF BioE last cycle. Feel free to ask me any questions or PM me.

[Born-to-pipette]

17 hours ago, Bioenchilada said:

UPenn's CAMB received 503 applications, interviewed 121, and accepted 108. This yields a ~90% acceptance rate post-interview and a ~20% overall acceptance rate. Many umbrella programs at top schools have acceptance rates of more or less ~20% , unlike undergrad admissions. This does not tell you a single bit about their credentials though, and applicant pools are VERY different. Also, if you manage to get multiple interviews at top schools, odds are you end up seeing familiar faces throughout!

Perf so pretty much getting an interview at a larger institution is a good indication of admission status, as long as one doesn't screw it up haha 

[Edotdl]

10 hours ago, Born-to-pipette said:

Perf so pretty much getting an interview at a larger institution is a good indication of admission status, as long as one doesn't screw it up haha 

I'd be hesitant to make this generalization. I've seen/heard about large programs with post-interview acceptance rates of 50-95%. I'd generally say if you have at least 3 interviews, then you're very likely to get into at least one.

[pitchfork]

Hey all, thanks a lot for answering our questions! I'm in the process of writing my SOP and I'm wondering: how much did you guys write about your PIs of interest in each program? What I have right now is just a one sentence description of how their research fit in my broad area of interest. I feel like I should write more but really don't want it to come off as me telling them what they do in their lab... What do you guys think? 

[aberrant]

I'll jump in since I'm bored.

9 minutes ago, pitchfork said:

Hey all, thanks a lot for answering our questions! I'm in the process of writing my SOP and I'm wondering: how much did you guys write about your PIs of interest in each program? What I have right now is just a one sentence description of how their research fit in my broad area of interest. I feel like I should write more but really don't want it to come off as me telling them what they do in their lab... What do you guys think? 

I think a one-liner is OK as long as your "package' generally fits those PIs' research. By fit, I mean either your skill set or personal scientific interest(s) (e.g. theme) aligned with these PIs. Otherwise, you may have to tailor a bit more about how you see you are a "fit" for them. If you are applying an umbrella program, I think it is generally OK to be more broad / general when explaining what you are interested in.

Just my $0.02.

Edited October 23, 2016 by aberrant