Male profs being friends with male students?

[Eigen]

And again we seem to talking past one another. 

The first part of my post was, indeed (I thought) answering your "am I missing something", although it apparently wasn't all that clear. 

The last was in response to Fuzzy; which I thought was obvious, since those were the exact words they used. 

[fuzzylogician]

28 minutes ago, Eigen said:

And pre-tenure, there's only so much I can do on an institutional level other than do the best I can for my students and impotently post my frustration with the situation on a message board. I speak out when I have the opportunity, and I rather resent the implication (from a handful of Internet posts) that I am shirking my responsibility and am not an ally is frustrating.

Assuming that this is at least partly about my post, and I wasn't trying to cast personal blame on you. I don't know you or what you do in your daily life, but from all I know about you from this board I would have no reason to suspect that are anything but a good contributing member of your academic community. But I still find the content of your post very frustrating, and that was the point of my post. I fully understand that someone low in the hierarchy of their academic institution and who depends on the evaluation of other faculty members may not want to criticize them or point out potential problems with their behavior. But while young male faculty members work their way toward tenure, other women aren't getting the opportunities that they deserve, as undergraduates, as graduate students, as postdocs, as young faculty, at every stage, really. Old tenured men can't be the only ones who can help, or we will never fix anything. I find that frustrating, but I do apologize if you thought my words were explicitly directed at you. They weren't. The problem is much bigger than that, and that's where they were aimed. 

[Eigen]

I completely agree. 

I constantly get frustrated because I have been told over and over by senior female faculty (and grad students) that because I'm a male I can't properly mentor female students, or go into schools and work with getting girls interested in STEM fields, and that I shouldn't even try.

This is a large, systemic problem that I feel gets way too little attention. There are growing pushes for female mentors for students, which is great, but I consistently feel like, instead of helping current male faculty get involved, most of the efforts on the campuses I've experienced explicitly push them away. 

It frustrates me to no end that I get told taking one of me female students out to get coffee when they're obviously having a hard day and need someone to talk to will hurt both my reputation and theirs. 

My earlier posts weren't meant to come across as placing blame on the female students, I just emphatically think the solution is never to cut out productive relationships (male/male or female/female) just because they aren't equitable. Instead, the focus should be on broadening them to be more inclusive. I was responding to the "If they won't do it with female students they shouldn't do it at all" vibe, because I feel like that's a step backward and not forward. 

As an example, my current campus has efforts to increase young female faculties productivity and likliehood of getting tenure. There are female only support groups run by senior female faculty on top of the existing early faculty mentoring services. They're great programs, and they seem to help.

That said, it's frustrating that it's a gender specific option. However, I wouldn't say the current groups should go away, but would like to see our school develop similar support groups that are for any gender new faculty to go along with the gender specific ones. 

To go back to the title of this thread, the problem is not that male faculty are friends with male grad students- it's that they aren't friends with the female grad students. 

[lostongilligansisle]

On 11/3/2016 at 7:43 PM, Eigen said:

...

My earlier posts weren't meant to come across as placing blame on the female students, I just emphatically think the solution is never to cut out productive relationships (male/male or female/female) just because they aren't equitable. Instead, the focus should be on broadening them to be more inclusive. I was responding to the "If they won't do it with female students they shouldn't do it at all" vibe, because I feel like that's a step backward and not forward. 

...

To go back to the title of this thread, the problem is not that male faculty are friends with male grad students- it's that they aren't friends with the female grad students. 

No, the problem is exactly that the male faculty are friends with the male student, and the male student receives extra benefits from that friendship that the other students do not. This thread is not about discrimination against the female students, it is about the favoritism toward the male student. The favoritism here is gender based, but it could have been easily been based on race, religion, sexual orientation, marital status, or the faculty and the favorite student all being underwater basket weaving enthusiasts. Many people (myself included) believe favoritism in any form is unethical, but there are still significant numbers of people who see no problem with it or even openly practice it as if it were a virtue. 

Favoritism in any setting breeds resentment, frustration and anger among the unfavored, and sometimes even hopelessness and despair. It gives the favored a sense of entitlement to the inequitable allocations of benefits and a lack of appreciation for the advantages they have received that others have not. It also sets up the favored as a potential target for retribution or sabotage. It encourages conflict, breaks down teams, and prevents work from getting done. Favoritism allows the talents, knowledge, and abilities of the unfavored to go unrecognized, unrewarded, and wasted, instead of being put to effective and meaningful use. Favoritism is usually only seen or sensed by the unfavored, seldom noticed by the favored, and routinely denied by those who practice it (although some will boast about it). Those who practice favoritism, whether consciously or unconsciously, eventually lose the trust and respect of the unfavored and anyone else who can see the favoritism and does not agree with it. 

Eigen, I've seen you give good advice in many other threads, but I, for one, do not take any of your advice or statements in this thread seriously... not because you are male, but because you have clearly stated that you choose to show your male students favoritism and will continue to do so. You choose to perpetuate those double standards. The reason why does not matter to anyone but you, because your actions are what make a difference (or not) in your students' lives. Your female students have no choice but to do without, while watching the males reap the benefits you give them. The reason there are those gender-specific support groups is because that outside of those support groups, there are many, many people who think like you do, who are in positions of authority and can grant resources and opportunities as they see fit, and who view themselves as supporting women, even while continuing to give advantages to men and justifying it in ways like you have written above. You are frustrated that you are not viewed as an ally -- why should you be, when you choose not treat your students equally? (Rhetorical question. Only you need to know the honest answer to that.)

Seriously: you cannot show favoritism to men and expect women to believe that you will have their back. Maybe I've been harsh in my statements, but it's because women live with the much harsher reality of favoritism every day. Because favoritism is the root of why there are not more women and other underrepresented groups in STEM fields, not any of the other excuses that people think can be fixed with school outreach programs and whatnot. Because favoritism promotes the success of the favored through greater assistance and opportunities (even simple things like a prof giving you temporary lodging), and the unfavored move on to other areas in search of receiving the same opportunities as everyone else. Unfortunately, many never do get those opportunities.

I really didn't intend this post to be so long and preachy, but I thought someone had to say this. Not that it will actually change anyone's behavior or point of view -- I gave up trying to do that a long time ago -- but at least Pscott and others going through similar experiences can know that some stranger on the internet believes them and understands how damaging these situations are to all involved.

[TakeruK]

On 11/3/2016 at 7:43 PM, Eigen said:

My earlier posts weren't meant to come across as placing blame on the female students, I just emphatically think the solution is never to cut out productive relationships (male/male or female/female) just because they aren't equitable. Instead, the focus should be on broadening them to be more inclusive. I was responding to the "If they won't do it with female students they shouldn't do it at all" vibe, because I feel like that's a step backward and not forward. 

What frustrates me about sentiments like this (the part I bolded) is that the current system is already set up to favour some people over others. I think that some things are actually fixable to be inclusive, but many things, including what the OP wrote about, are not fixable.

I think the kind of relationships that the OP wrote about the male student and the faculty members have in their program is problematic because it is rooted in inequality. Academia is generally an old boys club already, and the other professors unconsciously accepting the male student as a peer over the other students is not just how things happen to be, but it's the kind of culture that keeps the inequality going. 

I think a main theme in this thread is that some people really value the collegiality of academia. The fact that a professor and a student can be good friends is a nice thing that happens in academia. But this is a benefit/privilege that only benefits some people. I like this part of academia too, but over the past few years, I'm now convinced that it does more harm than good. I think that if we are responsible and ethical people, when we learn that our actions can cause more harm than good, the only right thing to do is to stop it. 

That is, I feel like a lot of people think that the current model of relationships in academia is good, however, inequality is bad, so let's just tweak things a bit to make it more equitable and treat everyone the same. I don't think this is enough. I think relationships in academia are far more broken than what people think and would require a bigger overhaul than just small tweaks. If I continue in academia, my goal would be to really push towards more transparent and professional interactions between student and advisor and to really separate the social and the academic aspects. 

To be clear, I do think that some things can be changed to create more equality. For example, some departments, like mine, have issues with inequality in the gender and race of invited colloquia speakers. I don't think the solution is to eliminate colloquia! Instead, I want our department's colloquia committee to undergo diversity training and be more conscious of their invitations. I want the Chair to review and audit this committee's performance to ensure it is consistent with the department's diversity and inclusivity goals. 

[quickstudy]

On 11/01/2016 at 6:37 AM, Pscott said:

I wasn't sure where to post this but this seemed like the most fitting...

My grad program is almost entirely all female students, about 18 students total. However all of the professors are male. Recently we have been noticing that there is some favoritism towards the male student in class.. and at last years christmas party we noticed that they were all hanging out with this student and it felt weird. Also the student was just talking about how he went for beers with one of the professors (not his supervisor).  

I understand that it would be inappropriate if a male professor went for drinks with a female student but if a professor wouldnt do it with a female student then shouldn't they just not do it with ANY student?  I also wonder what people would do in this situation or if you would just let it be? Are there any anonymous avenues for complaint? I know that all of the female students are noticing this and are really frustrated.

 

Here's my own contribution: don't sweat it. As someone else suggested, try inviting the professor in question for a couple of drinks with a few of the other students, including the male student. A PI I used to work with bonded with the male students over cigarettes in the parking lot (none of the female students smoked). It was annoying but then he was a bit of an arsehole in general.

There are other ways to build a good relationship with professors; simply taking coffee breaks together might help. Be friendly without coming off as inappropriate.

ON NO ACCOUNT MUST YOU MENTION TO THE PROFESSOR THAT YOU THINK THAT THIS IS AN ACT OF FAVOURITISM. Or anti-feminist. It is an instant kiss of death and you will be the subject of ridicule at the next all-boys club meeting. I've seen it happen and it wasn't pretty.

[serenade]

I found this awhile back and have been meaning to post it to this thread. There's another similar article that I thought I bookmarked but can't find. If I do, I'll post it, but in the meantime, this one is interesting. 

https://scatter.wordpress.com/2014/03/19/gradstudent-faculty-interaction/