Recession Increases Interest in Law, Grad School

[rising_star]

Not to make anyone more depressed but I just thought I'd pass this New York Times article along, in case people missed it:

"It took longer than some experts expected, but the recession and the resulting shortage of good jobs have spurred a jump in applications to law schools and a growing interest in graduate programs.

...

Prebble Q. Ramswell, 37, is among those choosing to return to school after being unable to find work.

A mother with two bachelor’s degrees, one in political science and the other in psychology and sociology, Ms. Ramswell has nearly 10 years of work experience, including six years as an intelligence analyst for the Central Intelligence Agency.

Ms. Ramswell lost her job with the C.I.A. when her contract ended last spring. She and her husband, who had also worked for the C.I.A., were both unemployed."

You can read the whole article if you want. Thoughts on how this will affect admissions?

[grad_wannabe]

It's a terrible Catch-22 - it's harder to find jobs, so more people apply to grad school. But, because everyone is applying, it's now harder to get into grad school as well. On top of that, schools have less funding and less people are leaving academia for private-sector work, therefore it's even harder to get into grad school.

And on top of THAT, academic posts are disappearing as budgets are being slashed, so even if we do manage to get INTO grad school, the job market is going to be that much shittier when we get out. Plus, everyone who goes into grad school during this economic slump is going to get out at the same time, so the market is going to be glutted with uber-educated people in about three years, all competing for the same shrinking number of posts.

All herald the new Greatest Generation.

(I was recently hanging out at a friend's house, there were six or seven people sitting on a patio smoking cigarettes, all recently graduated uni in very different academic backgrounds - humanities, poli-sci, art, chemistry, physics, etc. I asked who there was either already in grad/law school or in the process of applying - ALL hands went up. That was startling.)

[rogue]

When I read stuff like this, I try to make myself feel better by telling myself that:

A. It's probably mostly master's and professional programs that are seeing an increase in applications due to the recession, and not so much Ph.D. programs, which generally require a much longer commitment.

B. Just because more people are applying doesn't mean they're qualified, so maybe the competition isn't really much more fierce than any other time.

This may not be entirely true, but it makes me feel better.

[rogue]

Plus, everyone who goes into grad school during this economic slump is going to get out at the same time, so the market is going to be glutted with uber-educated people in about three years, all competing for the same shrinking number of posts.

That's assuming that schools take more applicants than usual. If anything, programs that fund their students seem to be taking fewer, not more. Just because there are more applicants now doesn't mean more will get in--or finish. But since you said three years, I assume you're talking about master's programs and law schools, and since these are often money makers for schools, maybe you're right.

Edited January 11, 2010 by rogue

[Pamphilia]

I'm wondering if anyone who frequents this forum has decided to apply this year because of (or partly because of) the recession. If the economy factored into your motivations to apply to grad school, could you explain why and in what ways? I'm just curious--no judgments here.

Personally, because of the recession, I wish that I had NOT applied this year. Or rather, I am happy to be applying at this point in my life, I just wish the timing were better.

Edited January 11, 2010 by Pamphilia

[rising_star]

That's assuming that schools take more applicants than usual. If anything, programs that fund their students seem to be taking fewer, not more. Just because there are more applicants now doesn't mean more will get in--or finish. But since you said three years, I assume you're talking about master's programs and law schools, and since these are often money makers for schools, maybe you're right.

The problem is that there are current students who aren't able to find jobs and will keep applying over the course of the next few years. I think the recent Chronicle article about the MLA job numbers hit on this. I can't remember the figures so I'm going to make them up. Let's say that there are 300 people on the job market and 50 jobs. That means 250 people won't get jobs this year. Some will pursue other things, others will reapply. Let's say that of those 250, 100 reapply. Add those to the 300 new graduates, and you get 400 people on the market with probably about the same number of jobs. This is a bad problem that even several years of smaller incoming cohorts to graduate programs will not correct.

[coyabean]

It happens during every economic downturn. I am really just banking on career fit at this point. It goes without saying here, of course, but grad apps are a chore. They are so much of a chore that unless you are hyper-focused on the career path and grad school as the means then it seems to me you are less likely to put together as convincing of an application. Sure, there will be high achieving superstars who perhaps would have gone into business and consulting and all of those other euphemisms they create to fast track connected, ivy leaguers but they were never really my competition anyway. They are in a different circle than I am. I am competing against the same hard tackle folks who probably would have always faced this crossroad of middle class crappy job or advanced education. And I can only hope I'm a half step ahead of and better prepared than those folks.

Or, this will be the year that the average GRE/GPA will be 1400/3.987 at every graduate school in the country and I will be a loser and I'll be escorted out of this comm.

Who knows? I do know, however, that this is what I want to do no matter the economic environment. I'm hoping that commitment shows in my apps.

[Jennszoo]

I'm one of them. I have been out of college since 1996, out of the work force raising kids for 4 years. I have piddled in part time work, but last year, when we got into a money crunch, I tried to look for FT work. I didnt get one nibble, even for jobs completely related to what I did in the past. I realized my database skills were dated, my business degree is undefined and I didnt have any real marketable skills.

So I am applying for grad school to get a degree and skills in a field totally unrelated to my undergrad degree. So hopefully in 3 years I will have relevent, employable skills.

Our financial situation has improved a bit due to my husband being in a fairly recession proof industry, but I still dont know exactly how we will pay for grad school and childcare, but I figured that bridge was best crossed after I was accepted.

Edited January 11, 2010 by Jennszoo

[johndiligent]

I'm wondering if anyone who frequents this forum has decided to apply this year because of (or partly because of) the recession.

I doubt anyone will admit to that.

[Roll Right]

Oh come on now, the world ends in 2012 anyway, so we dont have to worry. Itll end at the hands of zombies, naturally.

[Pamphilia]

I doubt anyone will admit to that.

I mean, maybe. But I don't think being motivated by economic factors is anything to be ashamed of. We all have varying reasons for wanting to go to graduate school. Something different gives each of us that special kick in the pants. Who is anyone to judge another's motivation?

[Summit_Bid]

I doubt anyone will admit to that.

In regards to applying because of the recession...it's one of my reasons. Before the economy tanked I wanted to get a PhD but now it's more of a motivation than ever. I was unemployed for year after I graduated in '08 and am stuck with a near minimum wage job now (I've got a MA too!). Since 2008 I've been applying to jobs and this dumb receptionist thing I have now has been my only offer.

I want to go to grad school for all the right reasons but also, riding out the economy by living on a hefty stipend (all the schools I applied to give you tuition remissions and stipend)and not having to work at all (or work a little)would be sweet for 4 years! When I get out the economy will more than likely be better (Let's hope), I'll have a new set of academic and life skills and I'll also just be more mature. sure I'll be another new college grad but in my competitive field I feel like there is no use trying to even make an effort getting a job during this recession so not worrying about it and focusing on something else for a while will be nice.

[NeuroNerd86]

Rogue read my mind. I also really hope that increase in applicants' pool does not necessarily mean that the actual competition is harder. I imagine adcoms have enough experience to be able to tell the difference between a person who is applying only due to recession and the one who would have applied "rain or shine".

[JennyFieldsOriginal]

I also have comforted myself with the thought that applicants applying because of the recession might not be the same competition as those who structured their entire undergraduate career in hopes of going for the PhD.

All the doom and gloom talk only motivates me more, and drives home the point that I have to be the best of the best of the best all through school.

This is an extremely competitive field and I think having that "killer instinct" while being ethical, kind, and friendly/helpful with colleagues is a must.

[BCHistory]

I imagine adcoms have enough experience to be able to tell the difference between a person who is applying only due to recession and the one who would have applied "rain or shine".

No less than three professors, all at different programs, have assured me of this, almost word-for-word, during the application process.

[solairne]

No less than three professors, all at different programs, have assured me of this, almost word-for-word, during the application process.

Commas abound!

[Jennszoo]

I guess its because I fall in this dreaded category, but beyond the increase in numbers (and therefore more competition) what is it about those who are returning to grad school b/c of the recession that is so horrible (so bad people wouldnt even want to admit it).

Sure my difficulty re-entering the job market was the trigger that caused me to think about what career I want for the rest of my life. I researched and landed on one that requires a masters. So I've been busting my ass meeting all the same requirements as everyone else here. I had a 3.8 undergrad GPA, scored well on my GRE, wrote my SOP, etc.

Why because I didnt plan this since before I graduated college, am I a lessor form of grad applicant than the rest of y'all?

[solairne]

I guess its because I fall in this dreaded category, but beyond the increase in numbers (and therefore more competition) what is it about those who are returning to grad school b/c of the recession that is so horrible (so bad people wouldnt even want to admit it).

Sure my difficulty re-entering the job market was the trigger that caused me to think about what career I want for the rest of my life. I researched and landed on one that requires a masters. So I've been busting my ass meeting all the same requirements as everyone else here. I had a 3.8 undergrad GPA, scored well on my GRE, wrote my SOP, etc.

Why because I didnt plan this since before I graduated college, am I a lessor form of grad applicant than the rest of y'all?

No, of course not. I wouldn't imagine that SLP would really be all that affected by the economic hiccup as other areas would be like Law. SLP is highly specialized and requires certain classes in undergraduate, so it would not really be that open to people applying on a whim.

I think that people significantly overplay the 'problem' of the recession being more applicants to the pool. As many have said, more applicants doesn't equate to more stiff competition, necessarily. I think the real problem with the recession in terms of graduate study is lack of contributions from previous donors which has a big impact on admissions and on funding for students. (That's not even touching on other areas this affects, such as budget cuts to programs and reduction in staff, etc.)

[rogue]

I guess its because I fall in this dreaded category, but beyond the increase in numbers (and therefore more competition) what is it about those who are returning to grad school b/c of the recession that is so horrible (so bad people wouldnt even want to admit it).

Sure my difficulty re-entering the job market was the trigger that caused me to think about what career I want for the rest of my life. I researched and landed on one that requires a masters. So I've been busting my ass meeting all the same requirements as everyone else here. I had a 3.8 undergrad GPA, scored well on my GRE, wrote my SOP, etc.

Why because I didnt plan this since before I graduated college, am I a lessor form of grad applicant than the rest of y'all?

I don't think anyone meant to say that you're a lesser applicant. But I do think that there are people out there who, faced with unemployment and a crappy job market, are saying, "What the hell? I'll just apply to grad school." And then they're doing so without really researching programs or the application process itself--something which most people on this board have put a lot of time and energy into. Those are the people who are presumably less competitive.

I know this from personal experience. I knew since high school that I wanted to eventually get a Ph.D. and be a college professor. I just didn't know at that point what exactly fascinated me enough to devote my life to it (in fact, it took me until a couple of years ago to figure this out). But less than a year after my master's, I was miserable working at my crappy job and said, "What the hell? I'll just apply to grad school." So I did--to the program where my dad got his Ph.D., in a field in which I had little skills or interest. And I shudder to think what the admissions committee thought of my clueless application. I am also so grateful that I did not know the ins and outs of the application process and did not put together a better app, because I don't think I really would've been happy in that field.

I admit that I hope the bulk of my current competition is more like myself nine years ago than me now.

[BCHistory]

Commas abound!

I just noticed that! Here's hoping I wasn't so "comma-happy" in my SOP.

[rising_star]

I want to go to grad school for all the right reasons but also, riding out the economy by living on a hefty stipend (all the schools I applied to give you tuition remissions and stipend)and not having to work at all (or work a little)would be sweet for 4 years!

Dude, you must be applying to some awesome programs if there are hefty stipends in exchange for not having to do a lot of work. Clearly I've gone into the wrong field...

I guess what I'm saying is that I think one of the fallacies of grad school is that you get to make $15K (or $20K or maybe even $25K in the hard sciences) in exchange for sitting around in coffee shops while thinking and reading. That has not been my experience as a graduate student. My friends in the hard sciences spend no less than 50 hours a week in the lab, coming in on the weekends and staying into the evening, in exchange for their ~$20K/year. I don't make nearly that much, have a 20 hour a week TA position, take 2-3 courses per semester, and do my research and reading for comps outside of that. If I were on the ball, I'd probably be putting in a minimum of 40 hours of work per week, probably closer to 50. That works out to minimum wage, more or less... Sometimes I think being a receptionist/administrative assistant might be easier because then it's a straight-up 40 hours per week and probably pays $25-30K/year.

[johndiligent]

I mean, maybe. But I don't think being motivated by economic factors is anything to be ashamed of. We all have varying reasons for wanting to go to graduate school. Something different gives each of us that special kick in the pants. Who is anyone to judge another's motivation?

Ehhhhhhhh... I could see it being *a* factor, maybe, but if the economic climate is the main factor I would definitely be irritated with that person.

Let me tell it in a parable?

Two brothers, Gypsum and Jemsen, are walking down the street. Gypsum cherishes a dream of being a bricklayer. Jemsen cherishes a dream of being a folk singer. As they walk, they are suddenly approached by Mr. Genaro Stout, bricklayer to the gods. He has a magic, golden mason's trowel that can do any bricklaying job in the world. Genaro will give the trowel to the first man to ask for it. Gypsum steps forward confidently, ecstatic that his lifelong dream is finally becoming a reality. But, at the same time, Jemsen also steps forward. Genaro's at a loss, since he didn't think both men would want the mason's trowel. So he decides to have a contest: he makes both men do a stupid standardized test that has nothing whatever to do with bricklaying. Jemsen's scores were fine, but Gypsum's were below the cut-off. Genaro Stout awards the mason's trowel to Jemsen. When the brothers get home, Jemsen hangs the trowel on the wall. He never intends to lay a single brick with it. Really, he just wanted something flashy to show his friends. Gypsum, several months later, does get a trowel, but it's not magic, not golden, didn't come with funding and is unlikely to get him a bricklaying position down the road.

If I were Gypsum (and many of us are), I'd be pretty damned pissed at Jemsen, wouldn't you?

[Lauren the Librarian]

I like your parable. Life isn't fair. But it doesn't mean we can't get pissy about it.

[johndiligent]

I like your parable. Life isn't fair. But it doesn't mean we can't get pissy about it.

That's a perfect précis.

[jacib]

Ehhhhhhhh... I could see it being *a* factor, maybe, but if the economic climate is the main factor I would definitely be irritated with that person.

Let me tell it in a parable?

Two brothers, Gypsum and Jemsen, are walking down the street. Gypsum cherishes a dream of being a bricklayer. Jemsen cherishes a dream of being a folk singer. As they walk, they are suddenly approached by Mr. Genaro Stout, bricklayer to the gods. He has a magic, golden mason's trowel that can do any bricklaying job in the world. Genaro will give the trowel to the first man to ask for it. Gypsum steps forward confidently, ecstatic that his lifelong dream is finally becoming a reality. But, at the same time, Jemsen also steps forward. Genaro's at a loss, since he didn't think both men would want the mason's trowel. So he decides to have a contest: he makes both men do a stupid standardized test that has nothing whatever to do with bricklaying. Jemsen's scores were fine, but Gypsum's were below the cut-off. Genaro Stout awards the mason's trowel to Jemsen. When the brothers get home, Jemsen hangs the trowel on the wall. He never intends to lay a single brick with it. Really, he just wanted something flashy to show his friends. Gypsum, several months later, does get a trowel, but it's not magic, not golden, didn't come with funding and is unlikely to get him a bricklaying position down the road.

If I were Gypsum (and many of us are), I'd be pretty damned pissed at Jemsen, wouldn't you?

How come your fable doesn't involve a tenure track brick laying career for anyone?!?