MAT or MFA before PhD?

[ItisJohn]

I'm looking for advice on whether to apply for the MAT or MFA with the intent to apply for a PhD program after completing the MAT or MFA. I would do the MA in English but seeing as it's already January and most schools want applications in before the new year, I'm considering other options. I love writing and the MFA would have subjects that interest me, the MAT, not so much, but the majority of my college professors (two that have MFA's and one that holds a PhD) have told me go to the MAT. I'm just looking for a little outside advice. Thanks!

[tvethiopia]

what specifically are you looking to do in the PhD program, when you get to that stage? what is your area of interest/specialization? the MAT and the MFA are vastly different degrees, in my experience (i just completed a dual MA/MAT program).

[Dr. Old Bill]

Are you talking about a Ph.D. in English / English literature / rhet-comp, or creative writing? If the latter, you might be better served by the literary arts forum, though it doesn't get nearly as much action. If the former...it's really all about your end goals. Remember that you'll need to spend at least five years dealing with high-level literary (and/or rhetorical etc.) study, which is not always emphasized in either M.F.A. or M.A.T. programs. I'm not trying to dissuade you from either path (truly!), but I guess we just need to know what your long-term objectives are before anyone can give you significant advice. And bear in mind that this is just a forum of "wannabes and soon-to-bes," basically -- if your professors are steering you in a certain direction, and that direction meshes with your interests, take their advice over ours.

One thing I will say is that you can usually take creative writing courses while you're getting your M.A. or Ph.D. That way you can still enjoy the creative writing process while studying, say, Faulkner on the way to an advanced degree.



ETA: cross-posted with @tvethiopia

Edited January 6, 2017 by Wyatt's Terps

[Warelin]

The two programs you mentioned are incredibly different in the purposes they serve. Where does your interest lie? Are you interesting in publishing? Are you interesting in teaching? Are you interested in research? How do you plan on connecting your Master's program interests to your PHD program? I think it's important to consider the following:

Reputable MFA programs are extremely competitive; more so than PHD programs.  UA received 500 applications for their MFA Program; they accepted 15. I have no idea how many applications programs such as the Iowa Writer's Workshop or the University of Michigan receives. I'd imagine the number is somewhere between 600-1000. There are programs that receive fewer applications but they tend to be unfunded. People in MFA programs tend to have a desire to publish their creative work and would do nothing but that if possible. For most, the MFA is a terminal degree and as such they don't pursue further studies.

There are still a great number of MA applications that are still accepting applications. I don't have any information on the MAT.

[ItisJohn]

I should have given more details, sorry about that! I'm finishing up my BA in English with Concentration in Lit. I'm nearly 28 and took four years off, two of those years were spent in Russia (fluent in the language now). This final semester of my undergrad studies, I'm a teacher's assistant for a Russian Lit class. Unfortunately, I feel I've waited too long to apply for a MA program for the fall. I want to teach at the university level, with my concentrations being Modernist/Post-Modernist/Contemporary Lit. and Russian Literature. I'm getting married in May so the hope is to find a teaching position while I'm either in the MAT or MFA. No desire to teach in primary school for a long term occupation. My literature professors have suggested the MAT as a stepping stone, and with a fluency in Russian, a PhD program won't be a hard thing to get into. The MFA would be more interesting to me and would have literature related subjects. I'm just wanting some opinions on what looks better to PhD programs? I'm thinking about LSU and Ole Miss for the PhD in Literature. My grade point is a 2.8 (due to my laziness as a 18-21 year old) but the last few semesters I've made nothing lower than a few B's. By the end of the spring semester it should be at 3.0 or a little higher. The university I attend now has an MFA program and the dean has seen my writing and was impressed, so there wouldn't be a problem getting into the program. 

[Dr. Old Bill]

39 minutes ago, ItisJohn said:

I should have given more details, sorry about that! I'm finishing up my BA in English with Concentration in Lit. I'm nearly 28 and took four years off, two of those years were spent in Russia (fluent in the language now). This final semester of my undergrad studies, I'm a teacher's assistant for a Russian Lit class. Unfortunately, I feel I've waited too long to apply for a MA program for the fall. I want to teach at the university level, with my concentrations being Modernist/Post-Modernist/Contemporary Lit. and Russian Literature. I'm getting married in May so the hope is to find a teaching position while I'm either in the MAT or MFA. No desire to teach in primary school for a long term occupation. My literature professors have suggested the MAT as a stepping stone, and with a fluency in Russian, a PhD program won't be a hard thing to get into. The MFA would be more interesting to me and would have literature related subjects. I'm just wanting some opinions on what looks better to PhD programs? I'm thinking about LSU and Ole Miss for the PhD in Literature. My grade point is a 2.8 (due to my laziness as a 18-21 year old) but the last few semesters I've made nothing lower than a few B's. By the end of the spring semester it should be at 3.0 or a little higher. The university I attend now has an MFA program and the dean has seen my writing and was impressed, so there wouldn't be a problem getting into the program. 

Those are some interesting circumstances, to say the least. There's certainly nothing wrong with being a "non-traditional" student -- I'm one myself, and didn't even start on a B.A. until I was already in my thirties.

I do wonder, however, why you're looking at M.F.A. and M.A.T. degrees instead of an M.A. in English, if your end goal is to teach literature at the university level. Going the M.F.A. / M.A.T. route won't make it impossible, I suppose, but it's far less intuitive than going from B.A. to M.A. to Ph.D. like most applicants. I think it's fair to say that you wouldn't be able to go straight from B.A. to Ph.D. with your current GPA -- it can be explained, but it's still a fairly sizable hurdle to overcome -- so you are wise to consider an intermediate degree first. But why not M.A.? Is it just because you have a good shot at getting into your current university's M.F.A. program? That's a good thing, to be sure, but might not translate into an obvious "middle step" in your trajectory. Like it or not, M.F.A. degrees aren't seen in the same way as M.A.s. Creative writing and academic research have a bit of overlap, but they're often viewed even within an English program as separate and unequal. Frankly, if both creative writing and the critical study of literature (and related research) appeal to you, you're probably far better served by vying for an M.A. than an M.F.A. I don't have any hard numbers to back this up, unfortunately, since there are no hard numbers for this sort of thing: you only really get a sense of academic culture and trends by being immersed in it and reading attitudes and trends.

All of this is a highly hedged, roundabout way of saying that I doubt that either the M.F.A. or the M.A.T. will be good stepping stones for you to reach a Ph.D. program with a focus in modernist / postmodernist or Russian literature. Your best option may be to apply to several 2nd or 3rd tier institutions to get a Master's (while focusing on one or two of the four areas you are interested in), do really well (i.e. close to a 4.0), and then apply to top Ph.D. programs. By then, your graduate record should mostly eclipse your undergraduate record, and you can focus on producing an excellent writing sample and an engaging, highly focused statement of purpose. As you certainly already know, it's an arduous road. Fortunately, NOW is a good time to start planning for applications for Fall 2018 admissions. If that works out, then you'd be looking at Ph.D. applications for admission in Fall of 2020, and should be done in 2024 or 2025 if everything stays on track.

None of this is meant to dissuade you in any way, but realistically speaking, it's a long haul, and requires a lot of due diligence and strategizing at every step along the way. There are few absolutes along this path, meaning that there are examples of people from every kind of background and level of preparation in Ph.D. programs...but your best bet, in my estimation, is to focus on getting an M.A. in a field that closely resembles what you currently see as your long-term goal. That field can change along the way, as can your goal, but moving in a direction that mirrors your current ideal is far better than moving in a direction that is ostensibly quite far afield.

[tvethiopia]

1 hour ago, Wyatt's Terps said:

All of this is a highly hedged, roundabout way of saying that I doubt that either the M.F.A. or the M.A.T. will be good stepping stones for you to reach a Ph.D. program with a focus in modernist / postmodernist or Russian literature. Your best option may be to apply to several 2nd or 3rd tier institutions to get a Master's (while focusing on one or two of the four areas you are interested in), do really well (i.e. close to a 4.0), and then apply to top Ph.D. programs. By then, your graduate record should mostly eclipse your undergraduate record, and you can focus on producing an excellent writing sample and an engaging, highly focused statement of purpose. As you certainly already know, it's an arduous road. Fortunately, NOW is a good time to start planning for applications for Fall 2018 admissions. If that works out, then you'd be looking at Ph.D. applications for admission in Fall of 2020, and should be done in 2024 or 2025 if everything stays on track.

this advice is perfect, i 100% agree.

an MFA is very specifically geared toward writers, not so much teachers and academics. you'll spend a lot of time in writing groups and workshops, developing your own writing (though NOT generally the peer-reviewed-research kind of writing you'll be expected to do in a PhD program or tenure-track lit job). if that appeals to you, great, but know that it is a very different kind of path than the one you describe.

as for the MAT, it's probably got a bit more overlap with the PhD track than an MFA, but it's definitely focused on teaching at a secondary education level. personally, i found this to be really advantageous; my MAT program taught me so much about learning and pedagogy that i would not have gotten with just an MA, and much of it is applicable to higher ed teaching. however, my program was a combined MA/MAT, so i also had the opportunity to do more typical MA work, which really is designed to prepare you for a PhD. as much as i think the MAT was valuable for me, i don't know that it would have been enough on it's own to prepare me for a professional higher ed academic career.

obviously i don't know your personal situation and i'm sure there are plenty of other variables involved, but i think it would be a serious mistake to get a degree that you don't really want just because you missed a few deadlines this year. there are still some deadlines that haven't passed, if your location is flexible, and waiting another year is probably preferable to wasting your time and energy in the wrong program.

Edited January 7, 2017 by tvethiopia

[JessicaLange]

I would not go into the MAT if it isn't something you're super interested in. In fact, I wouldn't do any degree you're not interested in because....debt. A lot of MA programs will allow you to apply for spring semesters where PhDs won't. So, if you are interested in the MA but just feel as though you've missed the deadline, consider applying for the spring. If none of the schools you are interested in offer a spring application, then I don't think there is any harm in taking a year off and applying for 2018. Just try to get an internship or a job that you can use to bolster your application. Also, do you intend to use Russian at all in your studies? I think it's really cool that you are fluent, but if it doesn't help with the material you're studying, then I'm not sure it's a huge selling point to adcoms. Of course, the experience of studying in Russia definitely looks good and will make them take a second look, I think at least.

[JessicaLange]

2 hours ago, ItisJohn said:

This final semester of my undergrad studies, I'm a teacher's assistant for a Russian Lit class. Unfortunately, I feel I've waited too long to apply for a MA program for the fall. I want to teach at the university level, with my concentrations being Modernist/Post-Modernist/Contemporary Lit. and Russian Literature.

Ohh. You addressed the Russian studies part. Sorry, I should have read more carefully, but I stand by the first part of my statement.

[ItisJohn]

Thanks for the input, guys! My situation is just a little difficult, as I can't travel for a MA right now. My fiancée is doing the MAT program this year so if I did an MA, it would have to be online. We've agreed to let her finish the MAT and then travel wherever we might need for a PhD program that I get into. Hence, the two year wait. I could start a MA in the spring I suppose. Does anyone have any online MA recommendations? 

[Warelin]

Which MA programs have you looked into? I think the application preparation for an MA is similar to that of an MFA. Some MFA programs tend to prefer letters of recommendation from other creative writing professors.

On another note: I'd e-mail some programs you're interested in to ensure your eligibility.
I just looked at a LSU's page and discovered this "3.  Official transcripts: A minimum GPA of 3.2 is expected on undergraduate and graduate coursework." A fair number of programs will consider your MA grades over your BA degrees but LSU makes it sound like one does not replace the other. Chances are it's a requirement set in place by the Graduate School but it might be worth checking out. (There are programs that also only care about your last 60 credits of your undergrad.)