The PhD Lifestyle

[Bibica]

Wow @Bumblebea, how did you refrain from ripping his face off with your old-lady raptor claws? I would flip my lid.

[positivitize]

9 minutes ago, Bumblebea said:

I was 28 when I started my grad program, which made me older than almost everyone in my cohort--but not THAT much older. But to an early 20-something, late-20s is devastatingly old. 

I was at a party a few weeks into my second semester and another grad student, after discovering how old I was, congratulated me on "looking so young for [my] age" and then asked if I worried that it would all fall off when I hit 30. (It didn't.)

The next year, when I was on the threshold of 30, a 25-year-old friend remarked that I was such an inspiration to her and she hoped she could still look so young and hip and cool for her age when she was my age. (I was 29.)

I was also routinely asked by people (men) in my grad program if I was planning on freezing my eggs any time soon. One guy even recommended that I forgo the PhD program altogether so that I could have kids. That was actually sort of creepy and unreal, and not funny, to be honest.

3

I waited until my final four semesters to fulfill my language requirement. I'm sitting in French class surrounded by 18 and 19-year old freshmen, and we're introducing ourselves in small groups using simple phrases. A first-semester freshman hears my broken "Je suis ____, J'ai vingt-neuf ans." and basically yells, "Wait.... You're 29!??!" The next thing out of her mouth (albeit quieter) "can you buy me and my friends alcohol?" 

No honey. I cannot buy you Smirnoff ice.

[Dr. Old Bill]

I still get ID'ed literally every time I buy alcohol. It was even more pronounced when I was visiting Canada over Christmas break, and got ID'ed there too. I used to find it funny, and still find it somewhat amusing, but looking at least a decade younger than one actually is does get old after awhile (no pun intended). The worst part is when I get an appraising look from an undergraduate. It's flattering for all of two seconds, before I realize that I'm at least fifteen years older than her...and then I feel like a dirty old man. The converse is true as well: I can't "check out" an undergrad without having the words you could be her father! run through my head. Sigh.

[ratanegra19]

1 hour ago, Bumblebea said:

I was at a party a few weeks into my second semester and another grad student, after discovering how old I was, congratulated me on "looking so young for [my] age" and then asked if I worried that it would all fall off when I hit 30. (It didn't.)

The next year, when I was on the threshold of 30, a 25-year-old friend remarked that I was such an inspiration to her and she hoped she could still look so young and hip and cool for her age when she was my age. (I was 29.)

I was also routinely asked by people (men) in my grad program if I was planning on freezing my eggs any time soon. One guy even recommended that I forgo the PhD program altogether so that I could have kids. That was actually sort of creepy and unreal, and not funny, to be honest.

Hahahaha, OMG, that's hilarious. I mean, weird and more than a bit creepy, but hilarious.

I'm also 29, and lucky that I'm part of a pretty mixed-age cohort so I've always felt like my extra years were an advantage (like a +2 Wisdom stat or something). I'm also lucky (in this particular realm, at least) that I'm a non-cis-performing person (genderqueer), so folks aren't always sure how to take me, and certainly don't try to give me well-meaning advice (anymore...once I hit my mid-twenties people seemed to finally figure out that it wasn't just a "tomboy phase").

That being said, I can't believe some of the s*** that my cis colleagues have to put up with while teaching--especially the women. Students asking them if they are married, telling them their outfits are cute, writing evaluations like "You're so sweet, I love your jewelry". Ugh.

Also @Bumblebea and @orphic_mel528, I couldn't stop laughing when I watched that video--are you familiar with Amy Schumer's "Last F***able Day" sketch?

[clinamen]

1 hour ago, Bumblebea said:

I was also routinely asked by people (men) in my grad program if I was planning on freezing my eggs any time soon. One guy even recommended that I forgo the PhD program altogether so that I could have kids. That was actually sort of creepy and unreal, and not funny, to be honest.

No, not funny at all. It makes my blood boil just reading this. I'm sorry you had to be exposed to such blatant misogynistic idiocy. 

[orphic_mel528]

1 hour ago, Bumblebea said:

I was 28 when I started my grad program, which made me older than almost everyone in my cohort--but not THAT much older. But to an early 20-something, late-20s is devastatingly old. 

I was at a party a few weeks into my second semester and another grad student, after discovering how old I was, congratulated me on "looking so young for [my] age" and then asked if I worried that it would all fall off when I hit 30. (It didn't.)

The next year, when I was on the threshold of 30, a 25-year-old friend remarked that I was such an inspiration to her and she hoped she could still look so young and hip and cool for her age when she was my age. (I was 29.)

I was also routinely asked by people (men) in my grad program if I was planning on freezing my eggs any time soon. One guy even recommended that I forgo the PhD program altogether so that I could have kids. That was actually sort of creepy and unreal, and not funny, to be honest.

The librarian at the university I work for very seriously cautioned me against my PhD because I couldn't have babies then. Welcome to the Bizarroland for 21st Century Women. 

[ratanegra19]

5 minutes ago, orphic_mel528 said:

The librarian at the university I work for very seriously cautioned me against my PhD because I couldn't have babies then. Welcome to the Bizarroland for 21st Century Women. 

[Bumblebea]

This article captures like no other some of the conversations I had about my age in graduate school: http://www.theonion.com/article/woman-looks-great-for-a-32-year-old-1710

21 minutes ago, ratanegra19 said:

I'm also 29, and lucky that I'm part of a pretty mixed-age cohort so I've always felt like my extra years were an advantage (like a +2 Wisdom stat or something).

I don't think I got any cred for being older, but I eventually started turning the jabs about my age around to poke fun at the youth and inexperience of the rest of my cohort. "Yes, I'm 29. I had to work to save money before going back to grad school. Oh, you were able to go straight through? So lucky! But don't you think it's going to be rough hitting the job market at 30 without having held a 'real job' before? And do you have a back-up plan? Because, I mean, I hope the academic career works out for you, but if not, you're going to be thirty and have a PhD and a very thin resume. Oh well, good luck!" 

[ratanegra19]

1 minute ago, Bumblebea said:

This article captures like no other some of the conversations I had about my age in graduate school: http://www.theonion.com/article/woman-looks-great-for-a-32-year-old-1710

I don't think I got any cred for being older, but I eventually started turning the jabs about my age around to poke fun at the youth and inexperience of the rest of my cohort. "Yes, I'm 29. I had to work to save money before going back to grad school. Oh, you were able to go straight through? So lucky! But don't you think it's going to be rough hitting the job market at 30 without having held a 'real job' before? And do you have a back-up plan? Because, I mean, I hope the academic career works out for you, but if not, you're going to be thirty and have a PhD and a very thin resume. Oh well, good luck!" 

Very true. You can't put a price on good, old-fashioned experience. I've never regretted taking time between my BA and my MA--the plethora of work experience (in my case, teaching experience) aside, it just gives you a bit more perspective on things--you freak out less, you plan more, etc. Still, it's really crappy that you have to take all that sexist bullshit from folks, especially folks who ACTUALLY THINK they are helping...it baffles me.

Between you, me, the fencepost, and the rest of this thread, some of my profs have actually told me that they prefer working with older grad students--they aren't basing any decisions on that sort of thing, of course, but just in the general scheme of things they find that the older students are a bit more down-to-earth and willing to understand that grad study is a full-time job, as opposed to an inertial whim.

[Silabus]

3 hours ago, ExponentialDecay said:

Dude OP you sound like you need a dating forum, not a grad school one. Lots of people in academia have vibrant sex lives and fulfilling romantic relationships, families, marriages, and so on. The people that I know who don't wouldn't have had it if they worked as a supermodel, because they are insecure weirdos with poor social skills.

If you're tired of being alone and want to be in a relationship or have casual sex or whatever is bothering you, go out and get it. I hate to be a broken record, but most of the time it's not a question of time but a question of priorities.

Based on my own personal experience in an academic environment and a "real world" one, it was so, so much easier for me to date in academia, because I was surrounded by highly intelligent, successful people with similar interests and values. In the real world, a lot of people go to the symphony to show off, it turns out.

Ah ha ha! Oh this is great! I needed this!

And you make a great point. It is a matter of priorities. Also the real world sounds awful if people only go to things like symphony's to show off. You've put things into perspective.

[Dr. Old Bill]

27 minutes ago, ratanegra19 said:

 

Between you, me, the fencepost, and the rest of this thread, some of my profs have actually told me that they prefer working with older grad students--they aren't basing any decisions on that sort of thing, of course, but just in the general scheme of things they find that the older students are a bit more down-to-earth and willing to understand that grad study is a full-time job, as opposed to an inertial whim.

I've heard this too, and it makes a lot of sense. There's usually a kind of confidence that age and experience bring -- a kind of confidence that you only get by living through stuff. When you know that you can make it through things like death, divorce, layoffs, financial hardships, and any number of bad things that come your way, you learn that you have the strength to deal with the more "academic" problems. I complain about my age a lot, but there's also a large part of me that is grateful for having all of the benefits age and experience have wrought.

12 minutes ago, Silabus said:

 

And you make a great point. It is a matter of priorities. Also the real world sounds awful if people only go to things like symphony's to show off. You've put things into perspective.

Yep! To some degree you have to walk the walk in academia -- be professional, be cultured, have decorum etc. -- but unless you truly want it to (which is a valid choice), you can't let it define who you are. You can love heavy metal, hockey, and horror movies (this is a totally, completely, utterly fictional example, of course ) and still produce excellent scholarship and be a model academic, after all.

[FeetInTheSky]

1 hour ago, ratanegra19 said:

Between you, me, the fencepost, and the rest of this thread, some of my profs have actually told me that they prefer working with older grad students--they aren't basing any decisions on that sort of thing, of course, but just in the general scheme of things they find that the older students are a bit more down-to-earth and willing to understand that grad study is a full-time job, as opposed to an inertial whim.

Ugh, those darn youths and their rock music! 

But honestly, this is a fear of mine. I'm gonna be starting at 24. I work hard, man, but I know that my field values teaching experience, which I don't exactly have in spades given how I finished a BA two years ago. I definitely worry about people not taking me seriously, and I don't want to have to compensate for that, but I guess I will.

Tl;dr this thread: entering this kind of work has challenges no matter what, obviously, and some of those challenges will be made greater by your age. But some things are harder for young people and some for older people and some for middle people. There's no challenge-free age for doing this. 

Edited February 18, 2017 by FeetInTheSky
I spelled "don't" incorrectly. Look out, master's degree in English, I'm coming for ya!

[ratanegra19]

7 minutes ago, FeetInTheSky said:

Ugh, those darn youths and their rock music! 

But honestly, this is a fear of mine. I'm gonna be starting at 24. I work hard, man, but I know that my field values teaching experience, which I don't exactly have in spades given how I finished a BA two years ago. I definitely worry about people not taking me seriously, and I don't want to have to compensate for that, but I guess I will.

Tl;dr this thread: entering this kind of work has challenges no matter what, obviously, and some of those challenges will be made greater by your age. But some things are harder for young people and some for older people and some for middle people. There's no challenge-free age for doing this. 

You're absolutely right in saying that different ages have different challenges attached to them--being taken seriously at a younger age, especially if you are a young-looking person or a woman, is sometimes very difficult. Luckily, the teaching experience that you get in MA and PhD programs is not only good for professionalization, but it helps you define the "teacher" persona that they'll be looking for later on for job searches (if you're going into academia, that is). That's one thing that's really nice about doing an advanced degree in the Humanities as opposed to other fields--we tend to get TAships instead of RAships, which means that we almost always have at least 5 years of solid teaching under our belts by the time we try for that professorship.

I didn't mean for my comment to be discouraging for you and other younger folks trying for the MA or PhD--I was just trying to point out that being older, like being younger, has it's own pros and cons  

[FeetInTheSky]

4 minutes ago, ratanegra19 said:

You're absolutely right in saying that different ages have different challenges attached to them--being taken seriously at a younger age, especially if you are a young-looking person or a woman, is sometimes very difficult. Luckily, the teaching experience that you get in MA and PhD programs is not only good for professionalization, but it helps you define the "teacher" persona that they'll be looking for later on for job searches (if you're going into academia, that is). That's one thing that's really nice about doing an advanced degree in the Humanities as opposed to other fields--we tend to get TAships instead of RAships, which means that we almost always have at least 5 years of solid teaching under our belts by the time we try for that professorship.

I didn't mean for my comment to be discouraging for you and other younger folks trying for the MA or PhD--I was just trying to point out that being older, like being younger, has it's own pros and cons  

Oh I did not find it discouraging. I would like the clerk to note that I was not discouraged. I just wanted to sort of say that I totally see what you're saying and that it's good for someone in this position (ie me) to be aware that those concerns exist.

Everyone's got troubles!

[biyutefulphlower]

4 hours ago, Bumblebea said:

Why would you have to get your eggs tested at 30? Most people don't have that done until they're in their 40s. And please don't buy into all the hype about "post-35 is too old to have kids." A lot of that info was debunked as unreliable a few years ago. 

*shrugs* Beats me.  And the 'after 35' is more of a personal thing. My mom and her father both died fairly young (both in their early-mid 50s), so I kinda have a fear about having kids later in life then kicking the bucket while they're still young. 

Edited February 18, 2017 by biyutefulphlower

[Caien]

5 hours ago, Bumblebea said:

I was also routinely asked by people (men) in my grad program if I was planning on freezing my eggs any time soon. One guy even recommended that I forgo the PhD program altogether so that I could have kids. That was actually sort of creepy and unreal, and not funny, to be honest.

I'm with @clinamen, this is absolutely disgraceful, the utter ignorance and arrogance of men who think talk like this is in anyway acceptable beggars belief.

[engphiledu]

5 hours ago, Bumblebea said:

I was also routinely asked by people (men) in my grad program if I was planning on freezing my eggs any time soon. One guy even recommended that I forgo the PhD program altogether so that I could have kids. That was actually sort of creepy and unreal, and not funny, to be honest.

I've never been asked this by non-family (thankfully, or as @Bibica said, old-lady raptor claws might have been the result), but I do have a semi-old school family, especially on my husband's side, who expected us to pop out babies as soon as we were married. When we informed them that it would be at least another five years before we would even consider having children, you would have thought I went out to their farm and shot every single cow they own.

Somehow in five years we'll have to spring the real truth on them - that being, that we really don't ever intend to have kids. They already see me as a "city" girl who has too many opinions, doesn't know her place (i.e. the kitchen/home), and is pursuing a pointless education, so telling them that their son and I have no desire to carry on the family legacy is going to be. . . interesting. 

[engphiledu]

On 2/16/2017 at 9:40 PM, Silabus said:

Again, maybe melodramatic, but at 28 who exactly is going to be left in the dating pool? At 30 I'm going to be washed up in the looks department right? I just worry I'm going to be some unhappy professor somewhere, lonely, with my dog, teaching British Literature, and kicking myself for all the time I spent chasing degrees and not love. Yup...I'm being dramatic. But it's how I really feel!

Not to echo too much of what's already been said, but I just want to also say that college/graduate school are the best places to find people. We have this opportunity which many of our parents and their parents didn't have - to be surrounded by fellow adults, with similar interests and similar aspirations. I know the only reason why my mom and dad got together was because of some extracurricular softball tournament for working adults - not college/grad. school. And, if they hadn't chosen to spend their time after work on this softball team, they never would have met, and they would have probably been restricted to either meeting someone through work, though friends, etc. Many of my friends in college/grad. school met their partners while in school, and they are happier because there's this greater sense of understanding concerning what we as academics "do," that many others have some difficulty understanding. Not to say that school is the only place where you'll be able to find someone, of course, but don't give up hope just yet!

Additionally, some of the cutest professor couples I have had the honor of knowing met each other and got married after they were hired on at the same university. Many were in their late 30s and 40s, if not older. Again, I think people in academia have a good understanding of the time it takes to get a PhD, just like any other profession which requires many more years of education post-BA.

[Bumblebea]

6 hours ago, Bibica said:

Wow @Bumblebea, how did you refrain from ripping his face off with your old-lady raptor claws? I would flip my lid.

I will say that this happened at only one grad program I went to (for my MA) and not at my PhD program, so I don't think it's a widespread problem that women routinely get asked what they're going to do about rapidly diminishing fertility in front of other grad students and professors. This sort of thing was very much part of the culture at my MA program. Almost everyone came in married or engaged, so that was seen as normal, and those who were not coupled were often asked what they were going to do to solve that "problem. (It was also assumed that spending too much time studying was going to hurt your chances of finding someone, and this has not proven true in my experience.)

At my PhD program, no one cared or even asked people about these things. It just was such a non-issue. 

But women's bodies are routinely thought of as "public domain," and academia, sadly, is no exception to that rule. 

[ratanegra19]

1 hour ago, engphiledu said:

I've never been asked this by non-family (thankfully, or as @Bibica said, old-lady raptor claws might have been the result), but I do have a semi-old school family, especially on my husband's side, who expected us to pop out babies as soon as we were married. When we informed them that it would be at least another five years before we would even consider having children, you would have thought I went out to their farm and shot every single cow they own.

Somehow in five years we'll have to spring the real truth on them - that being, that we really don't ever intend to have kids. They already see me as a "city" girl who has too many opinions, doesn't know her place (i.e. the kitchen/home), and is pursuing a pointless education, so telling them that their son and I have no desire to carry on the family legacy is going to be. . . interesting. 

*Grimace of sympathy.

My family isn't quite that bad, thank goodness, but I still thank my lucky stars that three of my sisters have already had children, and the fourth plans to, so no one bugs me about it. I feel like I dodged the proverbial bullet 

[rheya19]

19 hours ago, orphic_mel528 said:

The librarian at the university I work for very seriously cautioned me against my PhD because I couldn't have babies then. Welcome to the Bizarroland for 21st Century Women. 

When I told my dad I was to grad school about 7 years ago, his words were to me, " Well, all right, but just be careful. A man doesn't like a woman who's too smart."

[orphic_mel528]

Just now, rheya19 said:

When I told my dad I was to grad school about 7 years ago, his words were to me, " Well, all right, but just be careful. A man doesn't like a woman who's too smart."

Oh, when I told my mother I was applying for my PhD, she first asked me why anyone would want to do that, then dissolved into tears and told me a woman's only noble purpose in life was childbirth. When I'm not thinking about cognitive poetics, I'm mostly wondering if I'm adopted.

[Silabus]

16 hours ago, engphiledu said:

Not to echo too much of what's already been said, but I just want to also say that college/graduate school are the best places to find people. We have this opportunity which many of our parents and their parents didn't have - to be surrounded by fellow adults, with similar interests and similar aspirations. I know the only reason why my mom and dad got together was because of some extracurricular softball tournament for working adults - not college/grad. school. And, if they hadn't chosen to spend their time after work on this softball team, they never would have met, and they would have probably been restricted to either meeting someone through work, though friends, etc. Many of my friends in college/grad. school met their partners while in school, and they are happier because there's this greater sense of understanding concerning what we as academics "do," that many others have some difficulty understanding. Not to say that school is the only place where you'll be able to find someone, of course, but don't give up hope just yet!

Additionally, some of the cutest professor couples I have had the honor of knowing met each other and got married after they were hired on at the same university. Many were in their late 30s and 40s, if not older. Again, I think people in academia have a good understanding of the time it takes to get a PhD, just like any other profession which requires many more years of education post-BA.

I have to respond to you on two parts. Because I too come from a rural background. When I was growing up back home I had to get up early and do all the chores around the farm before I could go to school. A few times, I was so late I didn't make it to the bus in time and my mother had to drive me. Twice, I had to drive the family tractor to school. I wanted to join the football team but I let my father pressure me into bulldogging instead because that's what he used to do.

I ended up being one of the few people in the family to go to college, much less finish a degree, and no one has ever gone to graduate school before. Anyway, what I'm getting at is my family very genuinely doesn't understand what I'm doing. They're nice enough to respect my decisions and the fact that I'm doing well is probably what's holding their tongues. That said, even as a man in the family there is pressure and an expectation that I should have already been married and at least have a kid on the way by now. Most of the girls I went to school with are married, or engaged, or wandered off to some distant countries called New York City or Los Angeles. In fact, last summer I tried asking a girl from my graduating class on a date and she turned me down because I was "too old"--we're the same age.

However, you're right though. My parents met at some apple festival years ago. However, they had similar interests. I think through the course of going to college I'm too dissimilar from people back home. So yeah, you and everyone else make a great point about moving into a circle of academics where we all sort of understand each other better.

[anxiousphd]

17 hours ago, engphiledu said:

Somehow in five years we'll have to spring the real truth on them - that being, that we really don't ever intend to have kids. They already see me as a "city" girl who has too many opinions, doesn't know her place (i.e. the kitchen/home), and is pursuing a pointless education, so telling them that their son and I have no desire to carry on the family legacy is going to be. . . interesting. 

My boyfriend's mom has taken to making me hold (and, occasionally, be photographed with) various babies in the hopes that I will change my mind about not having children. I do not want children. Her son claims not to want children. If he decides that he wants children, he can pack it up and go have some with someone else. Introducing me to babies is just going to make me less inclined to have my own. Babies are terrible.

[engphiledu]

18 minutes ago, Silabus said:

I have to respond to you on two parts. Because I too come from a rural background. When I was growing up back home I had to get up early and do all the chores around the farm before I could go to school. A few times, I was so late I didn't make it to the bus in time and my mother had to drive me. Twice, I had to drive the family tractor to school. I wanted to join the football team but I let my father pressure me into bulldogging instead because that's what he used to do.

Your family sounds very similar!

I do want to say, I love my husband's family dearly. Just because we've chosen a different path than what they'd like doesn't make them (or us) bad people. It is difficult for them to understand our reasoning - who doesn't want to move 50 feet up the road from where generations of the family have lived, settle down, have six or seven kids, and live a simple life? There are endearing and wonderful qualities, and I am thankful to have joined a family who is quite loving towards us both, even when we disagree.

I think what is somewhat disheartening is that I know, regardless of our success, they will always think we would have been better off with their plan. Even if I were to publish books, get tenure, work at the most prestigious university, etc, they will still ask why we didn't choose to work at the local high school instead or help on the farm. It's not that I don't think these are noble jobs, and we need good people who are committed to the work, but to devalue the choices we make instead is where I draw a line.

In other words, I do think we make them proud, but they would be more proud if we didn't choose this path. 

I hope you have great success, even if it's difficult knowing there is somewhat of a divide now between life at home and life with your friends/colleagues in academia. I know it can be tough, and we've found that the best cure is mostly to try and spend as much time with the family as we can, and try to explain our goals to them, even if it's difficult.