Help deciding on a program

[navybluewool]

Hello, all,

Forgive me for the likely numerous crimes against etiquette I'm committing—I'm new here!—but I thought you folks seemed awfully keen and was hopeful you may lend me some advice.

I've been trying to decide on a PhD program which may be the right fit for me.  But it's hard deciding.  I've been given advice that the toppiest of top programs is where it's at and anything else is an utter waste of time; I've also been told to find my "fit."  Because my degree was in the humanities, because I have little time to prepare for the GRE(s), and because I don't have a strong second language, I feel I am going to have trouble getting accepted in any of the top universities.

What I do have is an MFA, a few publications (poetry), in-field job experience (bookstores and editing), and a whole lotta ambition.  I want to get the absolute most out of a PhD program and continue towards becoming one of those uber-generalists like Joseph Campbell or Ezra Pound who didn't do things traditionally but had some success and learned oodles and oodles on the way.  And I want to go through a PhD program with the mindset of learning as much as I can and improving my writing craft, publishing connections, and knowledge.

So, I'm at your mercy: how do I decide where will be the "right fit" for me?  And as I describe my aims, do any universities you know of leap to mind?  Should I focus on Literature or should I focus entirely on a creative writing PhD?  Is it alright to choose a college which may not be so highly ranked, but would offer the student chances to diversify their study widely and pursue their own vision?—and if so, which colleges are these?  I have found it difficult to tell on my jaunts through website after website.

Thank you for any and all help with my endless questions.  I really appreciate it.

[CrunchyMamademic]

5 hours ago, navybluewool said:

 Is it alright to choose a college which may not be so highly ranked, but would offer the student chances to diversify their study widely and pursue their own vision?—and if so, which colleges are these?

Look at how you set the two schools up against each other. One offers only rank, the other "chances to diversify their study widely an pursue their own vision." I mean, the second sounds much better.  I think it's pretty clear where you're leaning, but let me add my two cents quickly.

You can absolutely find amazing fit at a highly ranked institution, and you might even find better funding at such an institution, which in turn would help you pursue your interests and have more freedom. At least in my opinion, fit is more important (as long as you have funding or the means to fund it without financial agony), particularly since it sounds like you aren't looking to go on the market for a tenured professorship later on.

I can't really guide you toward specific schools, although I will say that University of Nebraska-Lincoln has a creative writing PhD. They are extremely tailored toward the student in the Comp/Rhet program, so I'm assuming that they are the same across the board.

Pursuing the PhD in CW sounds like it would make the most sense for what you're looking to do, so I'd recommend starting with a general Google search of programs. From there, look at faculty profiles. Is there anyone you recognize? What are their specialities? What professional development workshops are available? From there you will have a better idea of where you might fit.

[Glasperlenspieler]

It's unclear to me from your post whether you have already applied and are deciding where to attend or if you are looking to apply in the future. I think it's the latter but I'm not sure.

[Warelin]

I think it's important to realize that the rankings that USNews publishes (and are the most commonly referred to) are for English Literature rankings only. Degrees in Rhetoric/Composition or Creative Writing are not ranked by USNews. (There are also subfields within Literature which may be better at a school ranked in the 30s than schools in the 10s)

From what you mention here, it sounds like you'd be a better candidate for the PHD in Creative Writing. Generallly speaking, Literature PHDS care more about publications in scholarly journals and presentations and might not give any weight to poetry publications in chapbooks or literary magazines. CW PHD programs do care about chapbooks and literary magazines though.

I know that the University of Houston and University of Southern California offer a PHD in Creative Writing & Literature. Both are well sought after places. I know other popular destinations for those deciding to apply for a CW PHD are:  Florida State University,  Georgia State University, University of Cincinnati, University of Georgia, University of Illinois-Chicago,  University of Missouri-Columbia, University of Nevada- Las Vegas, University of North Texas, Oklahoma State University, University of Tennessee-Knoxville,  University of Utah-Salt Lake City, University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee and Western Michigan University.

With the exception of Houston and Southern California, I don't think other places expect a strong second language.

[ExponentialDecay]

I would prefer less etiquette and more content.

I've been given advice that the toppiest of top programs is where it's at and anything else is an utter waste of time;

What do you want to do? If you want to get a PhD for the hell of it and continue working at a bookshop for the rest of your life, it doesn't matter where you go as long as you're funded (do not take out loans for a PhD). If you want a career in academia, anything but the top programs is indeed a waste of time.

Because my degree was in the humanities, because I have little time to prepare for the GRE(s), and because I don't have a strong second language, I feel I am going to have trouble getting accepted in any of the top universities.

Given you posted this in the lit and rhet board and other hints here and there, I'm assuming you are considering a PhD in the humanities. If so, why on earth would it be a problem that your undergraduate degree is in the humanities? The predominant majority of humanities PhD students have undergraduate degrees in the humanities. As for the GREs, unless you have extreme test anxiety and a poor grasp of basic English comprehension, you shouldn't need a lot of time to prepare. If you have experience with standardized testing, the format shouldn't be too difficult either. I know lots of people who took it cold and got in the 90%le+ for all sections. The strong second language can be an obstacle at some programs, but as long as you're not applying to comp lit and your research will all be Anglophone, it's not a serious detriment. That said, you probably won't get into a top program - few people do - but for entirely different reasons.

continue towards becoming one of those uber-generalists like Joseph Campbell or Ezra Pound who didn't do things traditionally but had some success and learned oodles and oodles on the way. 

I don't think I've ever seen a job posting for an "uber-generalist like Joseph Campbell or Ezra Pound". It's also probably telling that both were independently wealthy white men that lived in the past century. What I'm trying to say is, Ezra Pound is not a profession. What do you plan to do with the PhD? Academia is about hyper-specialization these days, and if you want to be a generalist of any kind, writing a dissertation probably won't be enjoyable for you.

And I want to go through a PhD program with the mindset of learning as much as I can and improving my writing craft, publishing connections, and knowledge.

I don't know about Creative Writing, but Lit PhDs tend to have the goal of producing original research in some very specialized area. I'm also not clear on whether the "writing craft" you want to improve is academic writing or something else, because in Lit PhDs you will be doing academic writing exclusively. Are you looking to go into college teaching?

[slightlymoreanonymous]

Hi there!

I wanted to second what the others have said, but also add my two cents. I'm at Florida State now, and it is definitely a wonderful program for the PhD in Creative Writing (or so the writers here tell me!) So you might want to consider them. Many seem to land a book deal within their time here, and that's definitely rad:) The community here is also pretty great.

But a cautionary tale too: if you want to teach at the university level, know that it's an extraordinarily competitive job market. I've been helping my partner (a PhD in Creative Writing) with his job applications this year, and it's brutal. He's okay with that. He just wanted the opportunity to write and study, and didn't have to go into debt to do so, so he's definitely fortunate. And he's certainly not given up hope yet, but is also realistic about other job avenues. It seems as though creative writing is even more challenging a market than literature or composition (which are certainly no picnic either!). So if you're thinking about PhD programs for the growth/experience/craft, then that's wonderful! Just know that it doesn't always translate into those snazzy tenured creative writing jobs. I'm not a creative writer myself, but seeing the job application process close up has definitely made me think long and hard about whether I'll be accepting one of my PhD offers for this fall or pursuing different career options. 

[cloudofunknowing]

A lot of solid advice here and, as I was contemplating similar choices to you several years ago, what I offer is a combination of feedback my teacher/mentors gave to me and opinions given to me by fellow poets who've done PhD's in lit/creative writing or currently are enrolled in such programs. As context is everything, here's mine: I have a MFA in creative writing and am now pursuing a PhD in medieval literary studies. When I applied, I was ambivalent over whether to pursue one in a specific field of literary/cultural studies or lit/creative writing. So I applied to both, knowing they're fiercely competitive, and I figured I'd decide once I knew where the chips fell. I ended up applying to ten programs total: seven creative writing programs and three in literary studies. Were I to do it over, without fail I'd apply to more of the latter than the former.

As we all know, the job market for tenure-track positions in the humanities is dismal -- whether you want to teach creative writing or literature (or both). Some of the vicissitudes of the creative writing job market are a bit different from that of literature, however. There are now two kinds of terminal degrees in creative writing: the MFA (whether a two or three year program) and the PhD. In "theory," the MFA is still considered to be a terminal degree (more about this arguable point later). Because this is the case, there's a sense in which getting another terminal degree in the same field -- lit/creative writing -- is redundant. Granted, the doctoral degree consists of more than just more workshops, includes courses on the theory and practice of your chosen genre(s), etc, but it is still another terminal degree for a field where 99% of applicants already hold a terminal degree. While it is true that some job postings might specify that they want an applicant to hold a PhD in lit/creative writing or a related field, it is not true that that PhD must be in lit/creative writing in order for an applicant to be competitive.

Where committees separate the wheat from the chaff -- degrees aside -- are publications. To put it bluntly: the market is such that you have to have a book and, ideally, one that's won a prize of some kind to be taken seriously as an applicant. For creative writing, publications are as important as having teaching experience and, arguably, more important when it comes to getting to the interview stage. At the minimum. But having a book, even a prize-winning one, is no surefire guarantee for a tenure-track job either. I've had conversations with many poets -- who've all published at least one book, and whose work has garnered national acclaim in the form of book prizes, fellowships, etc -- who have spent years in various forms of adjunct hell while looking for the unicorn of a tenure-track job teaching creative writing. And by prizes, I mean things like NEA fellowships, Whiting Awards, the Yale Younger, the APR/Honickman, etc. This isn't to say that no jobs exist or that people don't get them. But the reality of the creative writing job market is that, unlike literature jobs, positions are advertised in terms of a specific genre and/or genres, like: specializes in poetry with a secondary facility in creative nonfiction. That results in a much larger applicant pool for one position -- for all poets who also write nonfiction -- than for a job search for a scholar of the Renaissance, say.

This holds true for the competition for spots in the creative PhD programs, too. As these programs are considered subfields/subsets of an English department usually, that means that the available spots for creative writers form a percentage of the total number of PhD students an English department can fund in a given year. So, if the department as a whole -- across all areas of study, medieval to postmodern -- is taking 15 students, let's say, only 1 or 2 of those spots may end up going to a poet or a fiction writer. So as with the job market, the number of applicants for the available spot(s) is exponentially larger than the number of spots available. And, in some programs, PhD and MFA applicants compete against each other for available spots (last I knew, the University of Houston was like this for creative writing). So the competition for creative writing spots is often not unlike the competition applicants face if they apply to specialize in one of the more popular periods of literary history (modernism, for example, or contemporary literature).

The other thing it's important to note about creative writing PhD programs is that they are not like a longer version of a studio MFA. Every poet I've spoken to who's completed/is completing a PhD in creative writing has told me that they feel like they have less time to write (poetry) than they did as an MFA student. PhD students teach, which is very time-intensive. Now it's true that some MFA programs incorporate teaching into how they fund students, too, but that isn't always the case. But PhD students in creative writing are also expected to take courses in the history of their specific genre -- in addition to other coursework requires that might involve foreign language proficiency, literary theory, etc -- and to conduct research-driven scholarly writing about that genre in addition to writing imaginative examples of that genre. So a poet's scholarly work might involve the history of the lyric or the epic, for example; or a fiction writer specializing in the novel might historicize their engagement with epistolary fiction within the larger context of novels employing that convention across literary history. Which is to say that, unlike an MFA program where creative writers are generally treated as, first and foremost, creative writers -- in a PhD program that creative writer must prove herself to be a scholar also. The specific requirements will of course vary from program to program. But the PhD program will involve a particular kind of rigor that isn't, in the final analysis, what some poets and prose writers want to do (study literary theory, for example).

A lot of information is available on the interwebs about the different PhD programs in the country that offer a creative writing specialization and/or offer you the chance to do a creative dissertation (another MFA thesis, more or less, but likely with a lot more scholarly apparatus surrounding it). I would encourage you to research them, see what kind of coursework and requirements each have, and explore what it is that you'd want to do with a PhD -- whether it's in creative writing or literary studies. But you should know that a creative writing PhD is a beast entirely different from the MFA. In your post, you mentioned that you wanted to increase your knowledge, expand your publishing connections, and grow as a writer (as a poet, I imagine you to mean). You don't mention anything specific about teaching and/or wanting to teach and/or scholarly work. Do you want to teach -- whether for the four plus years of a PhD program -- not to mention afterward as a profession? Do you want to write scholarship (however defined) in addition to writing poetry? If the answer to either of these questions is no, then a PhD in creative writing may not be something you'd enjoy. And if you do have an inner scholar nerd inside of you who enjoys scholarship for its own sake and/or a passion for teaching, I'd encourage you not to apply to creative writing PhD's and, instead, consider applying to programs in literary/cultural studies instead. An applicant with an MFA in creative writing and a PhD in English with expertise in 18th century literature, for example -- or any other field of literary or cultural studies -- is a double threat with two terminal degrees in two distinct areas, however adjacent the fields. For what's it worth.             

   

Edited February 24, 2017 by cloudofunknowing