Decisions 2017

[SarahBethSortino]

1 hour ago, DoraWinifred said:

I did go on visits, and now am leaning towards option c! Still have a few questions to follow up with before I make a final decision.. 

I hope the visits provided a little clarity for you! Good luck. At least either way it'll all be over soon!

[OHSP]

19 hours ago, angesradieux said:

I visited everywhere and I'm still not entirely sure. There's one school I'm leaning towards--I think over all, the way the program's structured would work better for me. However, there are a couple factors weighing heavily in favor of another program that make me hesitant to pull the trigger and make the official decision. Plus, another program is ranking a bit higher than the others, which I guess makes it difficult to turn down the offer despite having some reservations. I'm meeting with a mentor from undergrad today to discuss the options and see what advice she has to offer. I guess from a purely logical standpoint, I feel like the school I'm leaning towards makes the most sense. But then whenever I think about committing to go there, all of the "what if's" start attacking and I begin to wonder if I'm absolutely sure I want to turn down the other two offers. Hopefully talking to someone who really knows the field and has no vested interest in selling one school to me over another will help me figure things out.

This is so relatable. Good luck deciding!

[angesradieux]

Anyone have any wisdom on prestige vs funding? One of the reasons I'm having a tough time turning down one program is that it's ranked higher than the other programs I have offers from. I think the usnews has it tied with some other schools for 11. Meanwhile, the other schools I have offers from are both tied for 23. However, one of the other universities is offering me a much more generous funding package that will make it much easier to travel for language training and research as necessary. How much does prestige/ranking matter if my progress will be delayed by a heavy TA load and the need to really fight for funding to travel? The school that's offering me better funding is also a private institution, and I guess I'm also figuring that given the current attitude towards education in the country, I might be more secure in a private institution as opposed to a public university that's more dependent upon government funds. Any thoughts?

[amavere]

36 minutes ago, angesradieux said:

Anyone have any wisdom on prestige vs funding? One of the reasons I'm having a tough time turning down one program is that it's ranked higher than the other programs I have offers from. I think the usnews has it tied with some other schools for 11. Meanwhile, the other schools I have offers from are both tied for 23. However, one of the other universities is offering me a much more generous funding package that will make it much easier to travel for language training and research as necessary. How much does prestige/ranking matter if my progress will be delayed by a heavy TA load and the need to really fight for funding to travel? The school that's offering me better funding is also a private institution, and I guess I'm also figuring that given the current attitude towards education in the country, I might be more secure in a private institution as opposed to a public university that's more dependent upon government funds. Any thoughts?

I'm going to take a shot in the dark here and guess that you are referring to UNC and Vanderbilt. Though I may be incorrect. I considered both of these programs, and only applied to Vanderbilt for reasons of fit. I ended up getting in, and the funding was indeed very generous. There are two things I recommend you do, if you have not already. 1. Email graduate students at the public school and ask about teaching loads and internal sources of funding, or ask at visit day if that has not happened yet. Generally graduate students will be honest. You do not want to go somewhere that does not support you. 2. Chase down graduates of each department in your sub-field, and try to get a sense of placement. For instance, although NYU is ranked 23, they place graduates better and in higher numbers than many higher-ranked departments. This is an imprecise science, and it will depend on your sub-field, but I say it because Vanderbilt (if you are indeed referring to Vanderbilt) scared me off with a low placement rate. Few institutions place even half of their graduates in tenure track positions, but in my sub-field Vanderbilt had placed zero people in the past 20 years. 

It sounds like you're between two excellent schools. Do your due diligence and weigh the intangibles--if someplace gives you an odd feeling, listen to you gut. Congratulations and good luck!   

[angesradieux]

27 minutes ago, amavere said:

I'm going to take a shot in the dark here and guess that you are referring to UNC and Vanderbilt. Though I may be incorrect. I considered both of these programs, and only applied to Vanderbilt for reasons of fit. I ended up getting in, and the funding was indeed very generous. There are two things I recommend you do, if you have not already. 1. Email graduate students at the public school and ask about teaching loads and internal sources of funding, or ask at visit day if that has not happened yet. Generally graduate students will be honest. You do not want to go somewhere that does not support you. 2. Chase down graduates of each department in your sub-field, and try to get a sense of placement. For instance, although NYU is ranked 23, they place graduates better and in higher numbers than many higher-ranked departments. This is an imprecise science, and it will depend on your sub-field, but I say it because Vanderbilt (if you are indeed referring to Vanderbilt) scared me off with a low placement rate. Few institutions place even half of their graduates in tenure track positions, but in my sub-field Vanderbilt had placed zero people in the past 20 years. 

It sounds like you're between two excellent schools. Do your due diligence and weigh the intangibles--if someplace gives you an odd feeling, listen to you gut. Congratulations and good luck!   

You're correct. My options are UNC, Vanderbilt, and UIUC. My subfield is early modern Europe, focusing particularly on cultural history. I really liked the program at Illinois, but I'm not sure I can justify going there given the other options. I went to visit days, and I got the sense that at UNC I'd have a difficult time getting internal funding and I would really have to depend mostly on external grants and fellowships. That's one of the big things that makes me hesitate. On the one hand, I was told their students are competitive and do get fellowships, but I guess I'm sitting here imagining myself four or five years down the road kicking myself because I'm just muddling through, having a tough time because I can't get the funding necessary to get to the archives I need or didn't develop the necessary level of fluency in a necessary language because I was TAing all the time and couldn't fit the classes in. Conversely, the professor I would work with at UNC is older and has been in the field longer than the person I'd work with at Vanderbilt, so he's better known. So if I choose Vanderbilt, maybe I'll be kicking myself when I'm on the job market, wondering if I'd be having an easier time with a degree from UNC with a better known advisor. And again, I really like Illinois. Their faculty was great, and they have great resources for interdisciplinary study. But if I'm being practical, I don't know that the advantages of that program are enough to justify choosing them over either of the other two.

I guess right now it feels like I'm going to have some regrets no matter what I do and I'm trying to figure out what I'll regret the least in the long run.

[navyblackmaroon]

3 hours ago, angesradieux said:

You're correct. My options are UNC, Vanderbilt, and UIUC. My subfield is early modern Europe, focusing particularly on cultural history. I really liked the program at Illinois, but I'm not sure I can justify going there given the other options. I went to visit days, and I got the sense that at UNC I'd have a difficult time getting internal funding and I would really have to depend mostly on external grants and fellowships. That's one of the big things that makes me hesitate. On the one hand, I was told their students are competitive and do get fellowships, but I guess I'm sitting here imagining myself four or five years down the road kicking myself because I'm just muddling through, having a tough time because I can't get the funding necessary to get to the archives I need or didn't develop the necessary level of fluency in a necessary language because I was TAing all the time and couldn't fit the classes in. Conversely, the professor I would work with at UNC is older and has been in the field longer than the person I'd work with at Vanderbilt, so he's better known. So if I choose Vanderbilt, maybe I'll be kicking myself when I'm on the job market, wondering if I'd be having an easier time with a degree from UNC with a better known advisor. And again, I really like Illinois. Their faculty was great, and they have great resources for interdisciplinary study. But if I'm being practical, I don't know that the advantages of that program are enough to justify choosing them over either of the other two.

I guess right now it feels like I'm going to have some regrets no matter what I do and I'm trying to figure out what I'll regret the least in the long run.

 

I have heard from UNC graduate students that their teaching experiences are similar to those of their counterparts in other large state schools: handling sections that have too many students, plenty of grading, and a need to teach to survive. The upside of large state schools, however, is that you have more opportunities to teach your own course once you are a Phd candidate. That is very important in this job market. Vanderbilt is decidedly less accommodating when it comes to graduate students lecturing. Those Vandy graduate students who want to teach their own classes do so during the summer or at a nearby school (Belmont or Nashville State community college).

Vanderbilt has some big names in early modern European history. However, it seems to me that the program is stronger in some of the countries/regions. There are more students working in early modern Germany and England than in France or Italy. Then again, this is not my field, so I am not an expert.

Echoing what amavare mentioned, I would really focus on their recent placement track for early modern Europe students. That is sometimes hard to do with Vanderbilt's non-US fields because some only began accepting large numbers of students somewhat recently (at least compared with better-established programs). I would also consider the overall placement of all Vandy PhDs versus UNC's. At least when it comes to graduating students who eventually land top jobs, UNC has a better track record. UNC has some of its graduates teaching at quite a few top 25 programs (including Vanderbilt). 

 

 

 

 

[TMP]

7 hours ago, angesradieux said:

You're correct. My options are UNC, Vanderbilt, and UIUC. My subfield is early modern Europe, focusing particularly on cultural history. I really liked the program at Illinois, but I'm not sure I can justify going there given the other options. I went to visit days, and I got the sense that at UNC I'd have a difficult time getting internal funding and I would really have to depend mostly on external grants and fellowships. That's one of the big things that makes me hesitate. On the one hand, I was told their students are competitive and do get fellowships, but I guess I'm sitting here imagining myself four or five years down the road kicking myself because I'm just muddling through, having a tough time because I can't get the funding necessary to get to the archives I need or didn't develop the necessary level of fluency in a necessary language because I was TAing all the time and couldn't fit the classes in. Conversely, the professor I would work with at UNC is older and has been in the field longer than the person I'd work with at Vanderbilt, so he's better known. So if I choose Vanderbilt, maybe I'll be kicking myself when I'm on the job market, wondering if I'd be having an easier time with a degree from UNC with a better known advisor. And again, I really like Illinois. Their faculty was great, and they have great resources for interdisciplinary study. But if I'm being practical, I don't know that the advantages of that program are enough to justify choosing them over either of the other two.

I guess right now it feels like I'm going to have some regrets no matter what I do and I'm trying to figure out what I'll regret the least in the long run.

If you're doing German history, I'd take Vandy over UNC.  Hands down.  The UNC German professors are definitely on the older side and I'd question their retirement dates.  It is true that UNC is more prestigious in the eyes of external fellowship committees but you *do* need more internal funding to keep you going when external stuff can't.  Helmut Walser Smith's and David Blackbourn's names is quite excellent and will make up for everything for going to Vandy over uNC.  I'm not familiar with UIUC's European history program other than it's quite strong in Eastern Europe.  PM me if you want to discuss.  I'm also in German history.

[angesradieux]

10 hours ago, TMP said:

If you're doing German history, I'd take Vandy over UNC.  Hands down.  The UNC German professors are definitely on the older side and I'd question their retirement dates.  It is true that UNC is more prestigious in the eyes of external fellowship committees but you *do* need more internal funding to keep you going when external stuff can't.  Helmut Walser Smith's and David Blackbourn's names is quite excellent and will make up for everything for going to Vandy over uNC.  I'm not familiar with UIUC's European history program other than it's quite strong in Eastern Europe.  PM me if you want to discuss.  I'm also in German history.

I'm actually working on France. If I were working on German history, the decision would be easier. However, while Vanderbilt has a French historian whose work lines up more closely with my interests, UNC has French historians who are older and better known in the field. UIUC also has some better known French historians. But, I work on music and Vanderbilt has the advantage of having a music historian on the history faculty. At either UNC or UIUC, if I wanted guidance on musical aspects of my research I would have to go to the music department. However, both of those schools have larger music departments with more musicologists on faculty than Vanderbilt, so they can more easily facilitate interdisciplinary work.

Whenever I try thinking about it, I end up just talking myself in circles. Although I'm finding I'm leaning towards the school with more resources to fund my research. I guess I kind of fear that at UNC I'll have a tough time finishing because it'll be really difficult to get funding to travel. Again, I know students there manage to get the external money they need, but I'm not sure how comfortable I am having to rely on that to get my research done.

[amavere]

1 hour ago, angesradieux said:

I'm actually working on France. If I were working on German history, the decision would be easier. However, while Vanderbilt has a French historian whose work lines up more closely with my interests, UNC has French historians who are older and better known in the field. UIUC also has some better known French historians. But, I work on music and Vanderbilt has the advantage of having a music historian on the history faculty. At either UNC or UIUC, if I wanted guidance on musical aspects of my research I would have to go to the music department. However, both of those schools have larger music departments with more musicologists on faculty than Vanderbilt, so they can more easily facilitate interdisciplinary work.

Whenever I try thinking about it, I end up just talking myself in circles. Although I'm finding I'm leaning towards the school with more resources to fund my research. I guess I kind of fear that at UNC I'll have a tough time finishing because it'll be really difficult to get funding to travel. Again, I know students there manage to get the external money they need, but I'm not sure how comfortable I am having to rely on that to get my research done.

Firstly, Celia Applegate is great if you have not met her. Second, why not try to systematize the decision? Make a column for each school and list the deciding factors in order of importance, then mark which school "wins" in each category. Basically a more sophisticated list of pros and cons. It may be that on paper the decision is obvious. 

[Neist]

On 3/30/2017 at 10:28 AM, angesradieux said:

Anyone have any wisdom on prestige vs funding? One of the reasons I'm having a tough time turning down one program is that it's ranked higher than the other programs I have offers from. I think the usnews has it tied with some other schools for 11. Meanwhile, the other schools I have offers from are both tied for 23. However, one of the other universities is offering me a much more generous funding package that will make it much easier to travel for language training and research as necessary. How much does prestige/ranking matter if my progress will be delayed by a heavy TA load and the need to really fight for funding to travel? The school that's offering me better funding is also a private institution, and I guess I'm also figuring that given the current attitude towards education in the country, I might be more secure in a private institution as opposed to a public university that's more dependent upon government funds. Any thoughts?

 

It's personal preference, but I would always prioritize funding. That said, if both stipends are livable, go to a school where you believe you can grow the most as a scholar. 

Maybe that will be a higher ranked school and maybe it won't be.

[RageoftheMonkey]

1 hour ago, Neist said:

go to a school where you believe you can grow the most as a scholar. 

Maybe that will be a higher ranked school and maybe it won't be.

I'm curious if you think that holds true in all cases.. for me, I'm choosing between Yale (tied #1) and Cornell (tied #11). Is it unthinkable to turn down HYP, even if I think Cornell is probably a better fit?

[Neist]

1 hour ago, RageoftheMonkey said:

I'm curious if you think that holds true in all cases.. for me, I'm choosing between Yale (tied #1) and Cornell (tied #11). Is it unthinkable to turn down HYP, even if I think Cornell is probably a better fit?

 

 

I believe that it holds true in all cases.

If I were in your situation, I'd probably mostly ignore a question of ranking or prestige. Both schools are good schools. But like I qualified, that's what I'd do in your situation. You need to do what's right for you.  

[dr. t]

4 hours ago, RageoftheMonkey said:

I'm curious if you think that holds true in all cases.. for me, I'm choosing between Yale (tied #1) and Cornell (tied #11). Is it unthinkable to turn down HYP, even if I think Cornell is probably a better fit?

Absolute ranking doesn't matter that much, but you'd be turning down a first-tier school for a second-tier school. I wouldn't do it without a very compelling reason. People fetishize fit, but as long as you can assemble a competent committee, there isn't much difference between "good" and "great".

Edited March 31, 2017 by telkanuru

[RageoftheMonkey]

12 minutes ago, telkanuru said:

Absolute ranking doesn't matter that much, but you'd be turning down a first-tier school for a second-tier school. I wouldn't do it without a very compelling reason. People fetishize fit, but as long as you can assemble a competent committee, there isn't much difference between "good" and "great".

I was actually kinda hoping that you would chime in lol. How much difference do you think it makes that I would be doing History at Cornell vs American Studies at Yale?

[dr. t]

What do you want to do as a career? History departments tend to hire people with PhDs in history.

[RageoftheMonkey]

12 minutes ago, telkanuru said:

What do you want to do as a career? History departments tend to hire people with PhDs in history.

I ideally want to be a professor in a History department and be cross-listed in American Studies. After visiting both programs it's clear to me that I am invested in History as a discipline in a way that I am not invested in the interdisciplinary world of American Studies. That said, I could easily ground myself in History and get my MA in History at Yale en route to the PhD in American Studies. But it is definitely not as good of a fit as Cornell, which was my top choice going into applications because they are incredibly strong in exactly the kind of history I want to do, with around five or six professors who I'm super excited to work with and clicked really well with in person. I also really liked my incoming prospective cohort there and feel like I would be part of a really vibrant community of people who are all interested in similar historical questions as I am, which was not necessarily true at Yale.

Edited March 31, 2017 by RageoftheMonkey

[dr. t]

1 minute ago, RageoftheMonkey said:

I ideally want to be a professor in a History department and be cross-listed in American Studies. After visiting both programs it's clear to me that I am invested in History as a discipline in a way that I am not invested in the interdisciplinary world of American Studies. That said, I could easily ground myself in History and get my MA in History at Yale en route to the PhD in American Studies. But it is definitely not as good of a fit as Cornell, which was my top choice going into applications because they are incredibly strong in exactly the kind of history I want to do, with around five or six professors who I'm super excited to work with. I also really liked my incoming prospective cohort there and feel like I would be part of a really vibrant community of people who are all interested in similar historical questions as I am.

The MA won't count for much on the other end. Brown offers MAs in other fields to its PHD candidates, and the overall advice regarding them is that they're not worth the time. 

So, from what you said, Cornell is the clear choice. 

[RageoftheMonkey]

1 minute ago, telkanuru said:

The MA won't count for much on the other end. Brown offers MAs in other fields to its PHD candidates, and the overall advice regarding them is that they're not worth the time. 

So, from what you said, Cornell is the clear choice. 

Yeah I think you're right, and I'm pretty sure that's where I will end up. It's just hard to turn down Yale.

[dr. t]

Nah, just remind yourself that going to Yale involves spending 5 years in New Haven.

[OHSP]

3 hours ago, RageoftheMonkey said:

I ideally want to be a professor in a History department and be cross-listed in American Studies. After visiting both programs it's clear to me that I am invested in History as a discipline in a way that I am not invested in the interdisciplinary world of American Studies. That said, I could easily ground myself in History and get my MA in History at Yale en route to the PhD in American Studies. But it is definitely not as good of a fit as Cornell, which was my top choice going into applications because they are incredibly strong in exactly the kind of history I want to do, with around five or six professors who I'm super excited to work with and clicked really well with in person. I also really liked my incoming prospective cohort there and feel like I would be part of a really vibrant community of people who are all interested in similar historical questions as I am, which was not necessarily true at Yale.

Sounds like Cornell 

[TMP]

14 hours ago, angesradieux said:

.Whenever I try thinking about it, I end up just talking myself in circles. Although I'm finding I'm leaning towards the school with more resources to fund my research. I guess I kind of fear that at UNC I'll have a tough time finishing because it'll be really difficult to get funding to travel. Again, I know students there manage to get the external money they need, but I'm not sure how comfortable I am having to rely on that to get my research done.

@angesradieux  This is striking.  If you are not comfortable applying for funding and becoming competitive, then how do you think you will make it as a professor?  If being a professor is your goal, then you need to "hit the ground running" with your comfort level of writing endless number of funding applications for your research.  You have to bring in external sources of funding to increase your value to the university (both as a graduate student and a faculty member).  Successful grant applications can be learned with time and experience, akin to teaching.  Professors have to rely on funding to get their work done.  Having the experience of writing grant application will help so much more than you think when it is comes to apply for jobs; you're selling your research.   Applying to the PhD programs is... actually surprisingly not as stressful as applying for dissertation year fellowships and other opportunities to come.

[dr. t]

1 hour ago, TMP said:

@angesradieux  This is striking.  If you are not comfortable applying for funding and becoming competitive, then how do you think you will make it as a professor? 

While I think this is generally good advice, I think it's possible you misread what was said - angesradieux was concerned about obtaining funding, not applying for it, as far as I could see. A pretty valid concern!

[angesradieux]

9 hours ago, telkanuru said:

While I think this is generally good advice, I think it's possible you misread what was said - angesradieux was concerned about obtaining funding, not applying for it, as far as I could see. A pretty valid concern!

That's what I meant. I don't have problems applying for funding, and I'll certainly do so wherever I end up, because sure, I'd love to get a Fullbright and have that extra year of funding. What concerns me is having to rely almost entirely on that external funding in order to get my research done and complete my degree. At Vanderbilt, there's enough internal funding that if I do manage to get an external fellowship for research, I have an extra year of funding and more time in the archives, so it's great. But if I apply and I end up not getting anything, I have a guaranteed research year funded by the department to fall back on so I don't fall behind while working on the next round of fellowship applications. Meanwhile at UNC, the department doesn't have much funding to offer, and I get the sense that students working with the professor who would be my advisor are less competitive for university fellowships than others, so if I apply and end up not getting external money I'm afraid I'll end up basically losing a year because I won't be able to get to the archives and I'll be very limited in how much research I can get done. It's not the prospect of applying that concerns me so much as the feeling that if I don't actually get the fellowships I can't finish my dissertation.

[TMP]

6 hours ago, angesradieux said:

That's what I meant. I don't have problems applying for funding, and I'll certainly do so wherever I end up, because sure, I'd love to get a Fullbright and have that extra year of funding. What concerns me is having to rely almost entirely on that external funding in order to get my research done and complete my degree. At Vanderbilt, there's enough internal funding that if I do manage to get an external fellowship for research, I have an extra year of funding and more time in the archives, so it's great. But if I apply and I end up not getting anything, I have a guaranteed research year funded by the department to fall back on so I don't fall behind while working on the next round of fellowship applications. Meanwhile at UNC, the department doesn't have much funding to offer, and I get the sense that students working with the professor who would be my advisor are less competitive for university fellowships than others, so if I apply and end up not getting external money I'm afraid I'll end up basically losing a year because I won't be able to get to the archives and I'll be very limited in how much research I can get done. It's not the prospect of applying that concerns me so much as the feeling that if I don't actually get the fellowships I can't finish my dissertation.

This is honestly starting to become no-brainer that you should choose Vandy over UNC.  Celia Applegate should do well with you.  Ari Joskowicz (who did comparative history between Germany and France) is definitely a nice, brilliant scholar who is definitely making a name for himself.  I've met him at a conference but not  Celia Applegate so can't quite speak for her directly.  In this case, follow the money.

[KMFB]

I think this was touched upon briefly in some of the earlier conversations, but what are thoughts on history vs. areas studies re: marketability?  I’ve been accepted to 4 fully funded PhD programs, 3 history, 1 area studies.  I applied to the area studies program because the POI, while trained as a historian, is formally appointed to the area studies department, and would not be able to serve as a supervisor for a history student. 

The area studies program has some tempting pros to it—Ivy League, stipend is $10k higher per year than next best offer (granted, higher cost of living, but not 10k higher), and a very solid crossover with supervisor (contextual, thematic, and topical). On the con side, 1. area studies rather discipline based, whereas I hope to work in a history department, 2. more rigid coursework than other programs (4 required courses a semester the first year) which eats into independent work, 3. on a similar note, the scope of language requirements would eat into valuable travel research time the first couple of summers (I'll need to pick up three languages in house, of various relevance to my pitched project), and 4. while coursework has flexibility, a good chunk is dedicated to language and literature.

The big question though—is area studies that big of a sinker for marketability to history departments?