English as a second language

[Adelaide9216]

For those of you who have English as a second or even a third language, how does it feel to write a PhD thesis in English? Are you judged more severely on you writing at that level?

[fuzzylogician]

What do you mean more severely? You're expected to write at a certain level, no more no less than native speakers. This comes naturally to some, with time, and for others it remains difficult throughout their graduate career. The best way to train yourself is to engage in speaking, reading, and writing, as often as you can. You might also want to have someone (preferably a native speaker) read your work and help you with style and grammar, and you might want to use the writing center at your new university. FWIW a lot of these things are also true for native speakers -- everyone can benefit from getting feedback from colleagues, and native speakers aren't always particularly good at academic writing. (In fact, in my experience, hardly anyone is when they start out; undergrads are terrible writers!) It's a skill you have to learn and develop. So yes, you'll be expected to reach a certain level by the time you produce publishable work, but no, you won't be judged more severely than anyone else on your writing. 

[DogsArePeopleToo]

8 hours ago, Adelaide9216 said:

For those of you who have English as a second or even a third language, how does it feel to write a PhD thesis in English? Are you judged more severely on you writing at that level?

English is my second, maybe third, language (started learning two languages roughly at the same time). I am not a PhD student, but I am expected to write at a level that is clear, comprehensible and avoids mistakes that interfere with meaning. Some profeasors have nitpicked on the small stuff such as a missing comma, others have even bothered to inject their own stylistic preferences in their grading (the Oxford comma, dashes instead of a pair of commas, etc.).

Depending on your professor, small mistakes can be excusable in the draft process (forgetting to use an article, using the incorrect preposition, getting tag questions wrong, using who and which interchangeably, etc.). But students are expected to seek composition and proofreading help from the university's writing center or similar service to turn in a polished document.

I do think, though, that some people feel more at ease providing unsolicited feedback to non-native speakers, which can come across as an act of policing, judging the person and holding them to a standard even during regular conversation where small mistakes don't matter. Not a happy place to be in.

[fuzzylogician]

28 minutes ago, DogsArePeopleToo said:

I do think, though, that some people feel more at ease providing unsolicited feedback to non-native speakers, which can come across as an act of policing, judging the person and holding them to a standard even during regular conversation where small mistakes don't matter. Not a happy place to be in.

To an extent this depends on individuals. Both those giving the feedback and those receiving it. It's entirely possible that some people really are just critical in an unpleasant way. It's also possible that at least in some cases, people are trying to be helpful by correcting small errors in (what they believe is) a stress-free environment in the hopes that it helps you when it comes time to do writing that will receive an evaluation. There are differences in how students take these corrections -- if you think of them as criticism and a constant judging of your abilities, that's very different than if you take them as someone taking an extra effort of helping you improve your English outside of an evaluation context (so it doesn't affect your grade). I also realize that there are different stress levels that come from regular meetings for different students, but it's not always easy for professors to see, and it's also not always easy to know what to do with it. And of course there may be differences in how the feedback is provided and how it comes across.

Bottom line: sometimes behavior may be well-meaning but still hard to deal with, and sometimes maybe it's just over-critical. And yes, it's unlikely that someone will correct a native speaker's use of language in a spoken context. But they definitely do also receive criticism of their writing in written contexts -- that's just something you have to learn to deal with.

[Adelaide9216]

I would love to go study elsewhere in Canada or even in the States for a PhD. I feel like there is a lot of interesting research that is being produced outside of my province and across the world. If I would do it, I would need to start preparing for it now or as early as I can. But this language barrier thing refrains me from even considering moving away, especially since I have never lived on my own, I feel like it would be too difficult for me because I am a highly anxious individual. I feel like it would be too many stress factors (living on my own for the first time, getting used to living in a new city, being away from everything I know and starting a PhD, etc.). I don't know how the people who make that choice actually do it. 

Edited August 21, 2017 by Adelaide9216

[Hope.for.the.best]

I totally feel for you, Adelaide9216! English is also my second language, and I used to have a hard time communicating with native speakers. If you have seen my other posts, you would have known that I am also a highly anxious individual. However, I left my family and pursued undergraduate and postgraduate studies in a new city. I could hardly imagine that it has been nearly 8.5 years since I left home, and I am currently in my final months of PhD. It is undoubtedly a difficult and anxiety-inducing journey, but somehow I survived. Speaking from my own experience, what keeps me going is passion. If you are really into doing a PhD in Canada or the US, believe it or not, you will get through all difficulties. That said, I would suggest you the followings. 

(1) If English is a problem for you, try to attend some language classes. Maybe go to a TOFEL preparation course. You may need to sit for TOFEL anyway if you want to study in Canada or the US. 

(2) If you happen to know someone (e.g. family friends) living in Canada or the US (especially in the cities where you intend to study in), have a chat with them. They can be very helpful contacts when you study there. I would also recommend that you attend some conferences in Canada or the US, preferably in the cities where you wish to study in. By doing this, you get to know some local contacts which will be of help when you settle down there. If you are lucky enough, you may come across the research groups that you wish to join. Knowing someone in a new city is a great tool to ease your stress. In between the conferences, walk around the universities where you intend to study in. Locate potential accommodation (e.g. colleges on campus), supermarkets, clinics, banks and transport nearby. In my experience these are the important things to look for when settling in a new city. You could easily locate all these from Google map, but the actual walk is very important because very often you still struggle with finding the places even with Google map.

(3) Try to locate a suitable counsellor. You may not need it, but having one handy when you need is very important. I was very stressed out the past few months and struggled with finding a suitable counsellor in my country. 

Feel free to post back or PM me if you want more information. 

[ThousandsHardships]

At "that" level, you're judged for your thought and organization above all. Grammar, if it's an issue, can be easily corrected. No one cares if you make mistakes as long as they are easily correctable mistakes. If your English prevents you from performing to the best of your ability in terms of your analytical capacities (e.g. if they make your writing a mess and difficult to understand), then there may be a problem. But honestly, if they've accepted you, then likely you are capable of doing exactly what they expect. You may work more slowly, but chances are that you're harder on yourself than anyone else will be on you.

[Adelaide9216]

Hello,

thanks for your insight. My university offers free (sponsored) English 1-credit courses geared towards academia. I've decided to register for one this term, and another one in the winter. And I'll probably register for other ones in the summer. I really want to improve my English grammar. It's going to be a little bit more work, but it will make me feel more secure when I will decide to which universities I want to attend for a PhD. I don't want to limit myself to my own region, there is a lot of interesting work that's being done across my country and internationally and it would be a shame to not benefit from these experiences because of a language barrier issue.

[Hope.for.the.best]

9 hours ago, Adelaide9216 said:

Hello,

thanks for your insight. My university offers free (sponsored) English 1-credit courses geared towards academia. I've decided to register for one this term, and another one in the winter. And I'll probably register for other ones in the summer. I really want to improve my English grammar. It's going to be a little bit more work, but it will make me feel more secure when I will decide to which universities I want to attend for a PhD. I don't want to limit myself to my own region, there is a lot of interesting work that's being done across my country and internationally and it would be a shame to not benefit from these experiences because of a language barrier issue.

It's good to hear that you have located some English courses that you find helpful. From your posts so far, it doesn't sound like you have very big issues with English. I can totally understand your writing and I would say you are generally good at grammar. Of course, there are always rooms for improvement. Although I am not a native English speaker, I have helped proofread others' writing before, and I have seen many unreadable writing that I could not understand at all. A PhD student in my centre learnt very little English back in her home country and she struggled terribly with writing. Her advisor is generally patient, but he got very mad at her writing. Turned out with the help of her advisor and a copy-editor, she got her thesis done in 10 months. She graduated pretty smoothly. 

Keep working hard, but don't worry too much!

[Karou]

I'm going to go ahead and assume you're in Québec? I'd recommend starting by dipping your toes in the world of anglophone academia, you could do a Masters degree in Montréal at McGill or at Concordia, or even a Graduate Diploma program, they last only a year but are packed with courses so they're good training. This way you won't experience a culture shock and you'll be able to develop your academic english before you venture into the rest of Canada or the US. And the suggestion to have a native speaker look over your work is also a great one! I've definitely relied on kind hearted friends to read over my work. Prepositions are the bane of my existence.

English is also my second language and it definitely took some getting used to to write in academic English, even though I'd been fluent in spoken English for years when I started my program. But I learned fairly quickly, and it's definitely doable.  I studied in Montreal for about 3 years, feel free to pm me if you like! 

Edited August 27, 2017 by Karou

[Adelaide9216]

3 hours ago, Karou said:

I'm going to go ahead and assume you're in Québec? I'd recommend starting by dipping your toes in the world of anglophone academia, you could do a Masters degree in Montréal at McGill or at Concordia, or even a Graduate Diploma program, they last only a year but are packed with courses so they're good training. This way you won't experience a culture shock and you'll be able to develop your academic english before you venture into the rest of Canada or the US. And the suggestion to have a native speaker look over your work is also a great one! I've definitely relied on kind hearted friends to read over my work. Prepositions are the bane of my existence.

English is also my second language and it definitely took some getting used to to write in academic English, even though I'd been fluent in spoken English for years when I started my program. But I learned fairly quickly, and it's definitely doable.  I studied in Montreal for about 3 years, feel free to pm me if you like! 

Hello! I am already attending McGill for my master's studies. And I did my undergraduate studies there too. But during my undergraduate studies, I did all of my assignments and exams in French (students in Quebec have this right even if they attend English universities).

Edited August 27, 2017 by Adelaide9216

[Karou]

Oh you're already attending McGill! Well I feel a little silly for suggesting it now, sorry about that.

And that's right, I had totally forgotten about that rule. I never took advantage of it but I had a good friend who wrote all her papers in French. Well I think it could be good to try your hand at writing a paper in English during your Master's then. If you want to pursue a PhD elsewhere in Canada or in the US, you'll most likely need writing samples in English anyway.

And if you have 4+ years of experience of being taught your courses in English (as I'm assuming is the case for all McGill programs), I think your English is probably a lot better than you think it is. At least for me, learning the overall "vocabulary", so to speak, to express myself well in an academic setting was as much of a learning curve as learning to write a decent paper was.

I'm sure you'll be fine. Like others have said, we're often a lot harder on ourselves than is warranted. I would say I probably spend longer on a paper than a native speaker, on average, because I re-read everything obsessively, and I look up everything that sounds like it could potentially be grammatically incorrect. But that may just be my perfectionist tendencies! 

Maybe discuss your concerns with a sympathetic professor? They may have suggestions for you. If you have smaller written assignments, maybe start there and work your way up to a research paper. In any case, it seems you've already taken steps by registering for English courses, and I'm sure you'll make progress in no time. Best of luck to you!