Chicago Harris MPP or Georgetown MSFS?

[zling]

Hi all,

(Posted in the Government Affairs section with no responses, so am trying my luck here!)

Hoping to get views on two offers - Georgetown Masters of Science in Foreign Service and Chicago Harris MPP. I've heard good things about both schools, and am pretty torn, so wanted to get views on which school/programme would be better for future career prospects in the US, either at a foreign policy/security-related think tank, or private sector consulting firm (either IR-focused or general e.g. McKinsey). 

In terms of background, I'm an international student, so would be ineligible for US government jobs. I'd be able to find work in my home country, with either of the two degrees, so that's not a major factor. Not very interested in working for NGOs or the UN. However, the foreign policy poll of IR faculty also voted Georgetown #1 (50% of all polled) for masters' degrees leading to a policy career in IR, compared to Chicago at #12 (5% of votes).[Edit: Realised the poll compared Chicago's CIR programme, not the Harris school!]

Funding-wise, Harris has offered $10k, which makes overall costs around $65k, versus Georgetown at $75k. I'm waitlisted for Georgetown funding,but those decisions will only be released on 23 Apr, after Chicago's 15 Apr deadline to accept.

Other potential Pros / Cons:

Harris MPP: more general degree - greater customisation and flexibility to branch out for private sector jobs? However, their MPP's strengths seem to be in more urban/social policy or city development, rather than security issues.

Georgetown MSFS: better location for the D.C. network; specialised IR focus and branding would also help in getting a think-tank job? I saw around 50-60% of graduates also found work for the private sector.

tl;dr - how would you rate the two schools/programs, in terms of reputation & job placement (both private sector & IR-focussed careers)? Any other factors to consider, beyond the differences in curriculum?

Thanks in advance!

Edited March 25, 2017 by zling
cited wrong poll results

[zling]

Bump- any advice / help / views? Would especially appreciate people who know more about the US university and job market landscape!

[3dender]

I think this comes down to what you want to do for your career.  If you know you want to do IR, then Georgetown seems like the place to go.  If you're not set on IR, then few places are better than Harris for an MPP, especially going into private sector outside of DC.  If you definitely see yourself in DC, then Georgetown would probably be the way to go (though tbh Harris's DC network is nothing to scoff at either).

Something to complicate your decision is Harris's relatively new Pearson Institute for Global Conflicts.  They are trying to ramp up their brand in IR as well, and a significant amount of students at their Admitted Students Day were there specifically for Pearson.  My impression (though I'm no expert) is that the Harris brand will open more doors outside of DC, possibly even internationally.  

Have you attended the Admitted Student events at both schools?  Because I think gut reaction is an important factor too.  I was personally pretty turned off at Harris --  I just sensed a pervasive snobbery about the place.  Friends I've talked to in academia have corroborated that feeling.  If you've attended events at both places then you know how they made you feel.  Otherwise, you may try to talk to people who attended each one.

Edited March 29, 2017 by 3dender

[thex11factor]

5 hours ago, 3dender said:

I think this comes down to what you want to do for your career.  If you know you want to do IR, then Georgetown seems like the place to go.  If you're not set on IR, then few places are better than Harris for an MPP, especially going into private sector outside of DC.  If you definitely see yourself in DC, then Georgetown would probably be the way to go (though tbh Harris's DC network is nothing to scoff at either).

Something to complicate your decision is Harris's relatively new Pearson Institute for Global Conflicts.  They are trying to ramp up their brand in IR as well, and a significant amount of students at their Admitted Students Day were there specifically for Pearson.  My impression (though I'm no expert) is that the Harris brand will open more doors outside of DC, possibly even internationally.  

Have you attended the Admitted Student events at both schools?  Because I think gut reaction is an important factor too.  I was personally pretty turned off at Harris --  I just sensed a pervasive snobbery about the place.  Friends I've talked to in academia have corroborated that feeling.  If you've attended events at both places then you know how they made you feel.  Otherwise, you may try to talk to people who attended each one.

does this impact your decision making process to pick a different program?

[3dender]

Yes it made it easy to eliminate them from my list of acceptances.  If their financial offer had clearly beat the others (it was middle of the pack), I probably would have considered it notwithstanding this negative impression, though I still doubt I would have gone there even in that best-case scenario.

I want to emphasize that this is a personal impression, and that I know that most Harris alums have loved the program.  It's really just a personality clash -- e.g. I'm not as ambitious as most of their students and plan to go into non-profit work, whereas half of their graduates go into the private sector.

[zling]

8 hours ago, 3dender said:

I think this comes down to what you want to do for your career.  If you know you want to do IR, then Georgetown seems like the place to go.  If you're not set on IR, then few places are better than Harris for an MPP, especially going into private sector outside of DC.  If you definitely see yourself in DC, then Georgetown would probably be the way to go (though tbh Harris's DC network is nothing to scoff at either).

....

Have you attended the Admitted Student events at both schools?  Because I think gut reaction is an important factor too.  I was personally pretty turned off at Harris --  I just sensed a pervasive snobbery about the place.  Friends I've talked to in academia have corroborated that feeling.  If you've attended events at both places then you know how they made you feel.  Otherwise, you may try to talk to people who attended each one.

@3dender: Thank you for the thoughtful reply, and for sharing your personal experience! I unfortunately won't be able to attend any of the admitted students days, because of work.

And yes! I was really interested in the launch of Pearson Institute, but communications with the Harris admin office have been a bit... hit and miss? It seems as if they only reply to 1 out of every 3 emails (even when it's a relatively uncomplicated question like "Can I get a waiver for TOEFL?"), so it's honestly frustrating trying to find out more.

Edit: Just curious about your impression, especially on the "snobbery" bit- was it more of an intellectual/ivory-tower-type snobbery (e.g. dismissing rival views / looking down on people without a PhD? or more of a "rich trust-fund kid" / not worth getting to know you if you don't make a six-figure salary?

Edited March 30, 2017 by zling

[3dender]

@zling I'm not sure if "snobbery" is the right word, because it really wasn't either of the things you mentioned.  Maybe arrogance?  I had the distinct impression that they were trying to dazzle us with their wealth (e.g. they gave us an impressive swag bag upon entry) and their prestige (name-dropping faculty is normal, but talking constantly about how elite they are compared to other schools, and trying to suck up to us with the same message isn't, IMO).  

Had they done these things with a flawless event I may not have noticed them, but there was remarkably little thought put into some of the proceedings.  The chosen facilities were not big enough for the turnout, and there was literally no comfortable place for us to eat lunch -- most of us had to sit on the floor.  They kept bragging about us being "the most students ever" to attend the event which was downright confusing: they were responsible for inviting us all and had to have a rough algorithm for how many would accept, so they knew what the turnout would be when they were organizing it.  But they talked it up like it was proof of their greatness, when really it just seems like evidence they're trying to grow their program (e.g., perhaps to better monetize their brand?).

So yeah, my chief impression was of them trying to dazzle us but in a rather lazy, even contemptuous, way -- after all, they would have to think pretty little of us naive grad students if they really expected us to be swayed by a fancy water bottle and their legendary name.  (This was arguably colored by my first interaction with them, when someone called me about my acceptance/offer, asked where else I had heard from, and immediately told me "Oh, we're way better than them!")

I will say that when organizers got out of the way and just let their faculty talk to us, the presentations were damn impressive.  Also, I was in a distinct minority of the 300 or so students in attendance, many of whom seemed enraptured if a little confused by the occasionally shoddy accommodations.

 

Edited March 30, 2017 by 3dender

[zling]

@3dender Again, thank you so much for sharing! 

If you don't mind me asking, which are the other MPP programs /schools you applied to? 

And what are the major factors in your own decision or ranking of the schools (either to apply, or accepting the offer)?

[3dender]

@zling My other schools should be in my signature.  My main factors in applying were the quality and location of the programs.  I'm different from most applicants in that I'm older and with a family, so it had to be some place we would all like to relocate for a couple of years (my wife's skills are easily transferrable).  We currently live in a small town so were excited at the idea of moving to a major city for a couple-few years.

I'm in it for more of a generalist degree than you are -- as I mentioned above, I see myself working in the non-profit sector doing policy research and advocacy.  I also wasn't sure about the strength of my candidacy after such a long layoff and "merely" being a public school teacher for the last decade or so.  So I applied to the major programs -- Berkeley, Chicago, Duke, Columbia -- as sort of a prayer, while being sure to line up some back-ups behind the next tier (I had a list of 3-4 that didn't have apps due until April, just in case I didn't get in anywhere).

Happily, it turns out I could have applied to way fewer schools.  American was my first acceptance and made an extremely attractive offer along with a terrific recruitment event for their "top prospects" -- they're clearly trying to move up in the rankings and compete with GT and GW as best of DC.  I've kept in touch with a couple candidates I met there who both told me that despite getting into way better programs, they haven't liked any of them as much as American when visiting.

After that, it was basically going to come down to who gave me the best offer.  Chicago, even though much more expensive, was enticing just for its name, until I visited of course.  LBJ didn't offer money but was still the cheapest out of any of them -- alas, in the interim my wife and I decided that Austin was a little too similar to the Raleigh-Durham area that we currently live in.  Berkeley, Columbia and GW didn't offer me money and declined to negotiate, making the decision on them easy.   Duke came in with a generous offer, basically a half-ride, which was less than American, but difference in living costs made it still way cheaper.  And finally I got offered a full-ride from Maryland.

So it was pretty easy to whittle the acceptances down to American, Duke, and Maryland.  Duke is the least appealing location for us, since we already live here, but there's an obvious convenience factor in not having to move with two young children, find schools for them, get a house, etc., all while starting grad school and my wife at a new job.  When you combine that with the significant difference in prestige between Duke's degree and the other two programs, it's really kind of a no-brainer.  As i write I'm waiting to attend Duke's Open House tomorrow, just to make sure I don't have the same sort of visceral reaction I had to Harris.  Assuming I don't, I'll be able to commit shortly (still trying to get them to up their offer after Maryland's full ride!).  Because my wife and I still want to move at some point, we've compromised and committed to relocating after I graduate in two years.

That was maybe more in depth than you were expecting, but what can I say? Like many, I enjoy talking about myself.  I'm not sure how helpful that will be for your own decision, but as a more "mature" applicant I will offer you some unsolicited advice: think long and hard about what you see yourself doing in two years after you graduate, then in five years, then in ten years.  If you're set on IR, there are logistical factors like geographical location that make DC more convenient.  But being, presumably, less attached than me in other areas of your life, you also don't have to follow the path of least resistance.  Ask yourself which city appeals to you more.  Try to imagine yourself in each place (and in each season!).  

Hope that helps, and I wish you luck.  Also, as one of the deans told me when I was trying to negotiate more money: as major as this decision is, all of your options are great, and you really can't go too wrong with whatever you choose.  Reminding yourself of that may take some of the pressure off of this decision.

 

Edited March 30, 2017 by 3dender

[zling]

@3dender I can't say thank you enough!

I really appreciate you going in-depth and explaining the details of your key considerations - hearing this explanation of your thought process and the way you rank your choices really helps to clarify some of the factors that I should also be thinking about.

Especially the lifestyle factors - I've mostly focussed on school quality and placement, without giving as much thought to quality of life considerations like weather, city-suburb environment and being near to family/friends.

Best of luck to you too, and I hope your Duke Open House visit goes well!

[thex11factor]

My two cents about Georgetown after visiting: they really tried to sell students on their location advantage in DC in the same way that Harris sold themselves on UChicago's reputation/swagger. I didn't get a sense of how it set itself apart from GW, American or the other DC programs.

[zling]

8 hours ago, thex11factor said:

My two cents about Georgetown after visiting: they really tried to sell students on their location advantage in DC in the same way that Harris sold themselves on UChicago's reputation/swagger. I didn't get a sense of how it set itself apart from GW, American or the other DC programs.

@thex11factor Thanks for sharing your experience on visit day! 

I saw from your other posts that you're also deciding between Georgetown-McCourt and Chicago-Harris - did you feel there are other major differences between the schools, and which program do you think you're likely to pick? (Sorry for asking so many questions - I was excited to see that you're making a similar choice, and hope to get pointers in making my own decision!)

[thex11factor]

15 hours ago, zling said:

@thex11factor Thanks for sharing your experience on visit day! 

I saw from your other posts that you're also deciding between Georgetown-McCourt and Chicago-Harris - did you feel there are other major differences between the schools, and which program do you think you're likely to pick? (Sorry for asking so many questions - I was excited to see that you're making a similar choice, and hope to get pointers in making my own decision!)

I felt that these are complete opposite programs:

- quarterly (Chicago) vs. semester (Georgetown); 11 electives at Chicago vs more requirements at Georgetown (thesis/capstone and only 18 credits left for electives)

- Chicago is more research center focused. Georgetown's research centers were an afterthought in their presentation to us. You will also learn from researchers vs practitioners.

- local/municipal policy vs DC/federal

- Harris expects cohort size to be twice the size of McCourt - expect class sizes to be different

UChicago is known to have a distinctive teaching/learning style. I recommend you read up on that. The type of quant you learn in each program is different. I recommend you look at syllabi and compare/contrast.

It's choice of personal fit, ultimately. I will second @3dender: think about what you want to do after the program. You have to think like an MBA student and do some career planning. At least for me, I saw a clear difference in each admitted student FB groups (join them if you are not in them already).

[zling]

@thex11factor Thank you so much!! Both for sharing your impressions / contrasts between the two schools after the visit, and for the advice on personal fit and career plans. I'm currently drawing up a comparison between the two schools and seeing how they match up, and of course, trying to figure out if I want to work in IR specifically or keep options more open. 

I'm pretty amazed by how helpful and generous people are on this forum in sharing their advice and providing feedback - thank you & @3dender again!

(P.S. Is UChicago the Socratic style, or just its law school?)

[thex11factor]

1 minute ago, zling said:

@thex11factor Thank you so much!! Both for sharing your impressions / contrasts between the two schools after the visit, and for the advice on personal fit and career plans. I'm currently drawing up a comparison between the two schools and seeing how they match up, and of course, trying to figure out if I want to work in IR specifically or keep options more open. 

I'm pretty amazed by how helpful and generous people are on this forum in sharing their advice and providing feedback - thank you & @3dender again!

(P.S. Is UChicago the Socratic style, or just its law school?)

I think that is just Law school

you should join the Harris alum webinar