The wallowing in the pit of despair thread

[radquish7]

i'm so glad i found this thread, im from psych but we dont have anything in the psych threads like this! i really needed a place to wallow in my despair beat this: i got rejected across the board from all 13 schools i applied to, well, waitlisted at one school but im not letting myself get my hopes up.(it only makes the way down longer) now im in that horrible place of uncertainty/scrambling trying to decide what in the name of jesus im gonna do next year...job? masters? try and do more research for peanuts?

i dont know about social darwinism, but this process certainly makes me think of cultural hegemony...anybody notice how the majority of grad students in the social sciences (within the ivies anyway) are white and have parents with summer homes? i feel like its so hard to prove to ad coms that you are worth their investment when you come from an underprivileged background and from parents sans social capital...

-rad

[Milkman95th]

anybody notice how the majority of grad students in the social sciences (within the ivies anyway) are white and have parents with summer homes? i feel like its so hard to prove to ad coms that you are worth their investment when you come from an underprivileged background and from parents sans social capital...

Higher education has always been for the privileged and it certainly still is today. Sucks, but true.

[deckard]

Higher education has always been for the privileged and it certainly still is today. Sucks, but true.

I don't know about that. About 4 people admitted in one of the schools I got into, including myself, are from Asia. That's nearly 40% of the admitted cohort. Plus the whole point of 5-yr fellowships is to enable those who can't afford it (like myself) to obtain a PhD without getting into crippling debt or suffering too much opportunity cost.

I do think cultural and social capital matter when it comes to the workforce, but i think there are some measures in place to limit its influence in getting into grad school (completing it, however, might be another matter)

[hip2btriangle]

I don't know about that. About 4 people admitted in one of the schools I got into, including myself, are from Asia. That's nearly 40% of the admitted cohort. Plus the whole point of 5-yr fellowships is to enable those who can't afford it (like myself) to obtain a PhD without getting into crippling debt or suffering too much opportunity cost.

I do think cultural and social capital matter when it comes to the workforce, but i think there are some measures in place to limit its influence in getting into grad school (completing it, however, might be another matter)

i do think there's something interesting to be explored here with regard to what counts as adequate preparation to be considered for the few spots in a phd program. i've basically put myself through college and even my current MA program through major scholarships when i could have attended much better ranked schools but i couldn't afford it. i really do think to some important degree that my chances for certain grad programs have been affected by that.

[Milkman95th]

I don't know about that. About 4 people admitted in one of the schools I got into, including myself, are from Asia. That's nearly 40% of the admitted cohort. Plus the whole point of 5-yr fellowships is to enable those who can't afford it (like myself) to obtain a PhD without getting into crippling debt or suffering too much opportunity cost.

I do think cultural and social capital matter when it comes to the workforce, but i think there are some measures in place to limit its influence in getting into grad school (completing it, however, might be another matter)

Just because you are from Asia does not mean you can’t be privileged. One of the schools I hope to go to is in a location heavily populated by wealthy people from Asia. You are correct that there are measures in place to allow poorer people into school, but they are not that effective. For example, I am extremely poor compared to most in grad school. I could only apply to a few schools that are close to where I live because of this. Also, being poorer limits your opportunities. For instance, I am applying to a program going against people with Ivy League degrees and resumes of work/research experience. On the other hand, I am applying with a degree from a public school with no relevant work experience, because I had to make a living to support myself/family. In addition, I have student loan payments to make for the next 5-10 years ($15,000 in debt from undergrad) that may stop me from even going to grad school because I cannot afford to do both at the same time. To put it into perspective, the chances of me going from the USA to Asia for school are almost impossible. However, you are coming from Asia to I assume the USA, which would mean you have some level of wealth because you are able to do so or you are one of the few underprivileged that got lucky and was able to obtain full financial assistance. So, I guess privileged is in how you want to define it.

P.S. I think I may have gotten us off the topic of the thread.

[maximus82]

Just because you are from Asia does not mean you can’t be privileged. One of the schools I hope to go to is in a location heavily populated by wealthy people from Asia. You are correct that there are measures in place to allow poorer people into school, but they are not that effective. For example, I am extremely poor compared to most in grad school. I could only apply to a few schools that are close to where I live because of this. Also, being poorer limits your opportunities. For instance, I am applying to a program going against people with Ivy League degrees and resumes of work/research experience. On the other hand, I am applying with a degree from a public school with no relevant work experience, because I had to make a living to support myself/family. In addition, I have student loan payments to make for the next 5-10 years ($15,000 in debt from undergrad) that may stop me from even going to grad school because I cannot afford to do both at the same time. To put it into perspective, the chances of me going from the USA to Asia for school are almost impossible. However, you are coming from Asia to I assume the USA, which would mean you have some level of wealth because you are able to do so or you are one of the few underprivileged that got lucky and was able to obtain full financial assistance. So, I guess privileged is in how you want to define it.

P.S. I think I may have gotten us off the topic of the thread.

I just wanted to say that I have offers from two very competitive schools, and I'm waiting to hear from a third one. To say that I got in because I'm privileged is kind of offensive, and I would assume it offends other people too.

I went to a school that wasn't prestigious at all but offered me scholarships. I have been working for the past four years to make sure I pay of my student loans. I have a 2 hour commute to that job I've had for almost four years, and it's made my life miserable, but I can't afford to live somewhere else and pay off my loans. I could keep going. The point is very simple: I've worked my ass off to get to where I am and do not think it is fair to say I'm here because of privilege.

[deckard]

Just because you are from Asia does not mean you can’t be privileged. One of the schools I hope to go to is in a location heavily populated by wealthy people from Asia. You are correct that there are measures in place to allow poorer people into school, but they are not that effective. For example, I am extremely poor compared to most in grad school. I could only apply to a few schools that are close to where I live because of this. Also, being poorer limits your opportunities. For instance, I am applying to a program going against people with Ivy League degrees and resumes of work/research experience. On the other hand, I am applying with a degree from a public school with no relevant work experience, because I had to make a living to support myself/family. In addition, I have student loan payments to make for the next 5-10 years ($15,000 in debt from undergrad) that may stop me from even going to grad school because I cannot afford to do both at the same time. To put it into perspective, the chances of me going from the USA to Asia for school are almost impossible. However, you are coming from Asia to I assume the USA, which would mean you have some level of wealth because you are able to do so or you are one of the few underprivileged that got lucky and was able to obtain full financial assistance. So, I guess privileged is in how you want to define it.

P.S. I think I may have gotten us off the topic of the thread.

Actually My Asian point was in response to Radquish's earlier post about ivy league grad cohorts being dominated by Whites.

Nevertheless, while I understand your point about the lack of a level playing field, I would appreciate it if you did not project your imaginings as to what types of people get into good grad schools: i.e the wealthy or the lucky poor, onto me. I can assure you that the reality is very different. Self-fulfilling prophecies might be at play here.

[Milkman95th]

Higher education has always been for the privileged and it certainly still is today. Sucks, but true.

I should have never said this knowing the controversy it would create.

[captiv8ed]

I just wanted to say that I have offers from two very competitive schools, and I'm waiting to hear from a third one. To say that I got in because I'm privileged is kind of offensive, and I would assume it offends other people too.

I went to a school that wasn't prestigious at all but offered me scholarships. I have been working for the past four years to make sure I pay of my student loans. I have a 2 hour commute to that job I've had for almost four years, and it's made my life miserable, but I can't afford to live somewhere else and pay off my loans. I could keep going. The point is very simple: I've worked my ass off to get to where I am and do not think it is fair to say I'm here because of privilege.

I don't think that what Milkman is saying invalidates your experience at all. Nor do I think it is offensive, rather it is actually a compliment to you and your tenacity.

The achievement gap is real and higher education is absolutely a privilege in this country. I am poor, come from a working class background, am a first generation college student and am earning my undergraduate degree at age 39 with three kids in tow. And that puts me in a privileged position.

http://www.publicagenda.org/files/pdf/theirwholelivesaheadofthem.pdf

This study has found that only 40% of students have earned their bachelor's degree in within 6 years, and by far the most cited reason for dropping out is either the need to work more and earn more money or the high cost of tuition and fees. The majority really want to go back and work and family committees hold them out.

This doesn't take into account the students who don't even have a chance at college, often due to socioeconomic reasons.

Only 10% of Americans over the age of 25 have an advanced degree. I have learned enough about cultural capital and networking to know that hard work alone does not account for all of those degrees.

Again, I am not trying to negate anyone's hard work. My family and I were homeless about a year before I started school. I understand what it is like to overcome seemingly insurmountable odds to achieve a goal. But I also try hard to always remember my own privilege that worked for me in order to get there, and I know that the majority of graduate degree seekers have more privilege than I do.

[maximus82]

I don't think that what Milkman is saying invalidates your experience at all. Nor do I think it is offensive, rather it is actually a compliment to you and your tenacity.

The achievement gap is real and higher education is absolutely a privilege in this country. I am poor, come from a working class background, am a first generation college student and am earning my undergraduate degree at age 39 with three kids in tow. And that puts me in a privileged position.

http://www.publicagenda.org/files/pdf/theirwholelivesaheadofthem.pdf

This study has found that only 40% of students have earned their bachelor's degree in within 6 years, and by far the most cited reason for dropping out is either the need to work more and earn more money or the high cost of tuition and fees. The majority really want to go back and work and family committees hold them out.

This doesn't take into account the students who don't even have a chance at college, often due to socioeconomic reasons.

Only 10% of Americans over the age of 25 have an advanced degree. I have learned enough about cultural capital and networking to know that hard work alone does not account for all of those degrees.

Again, I am not trying to negate anyone's hard work. My family and I were homeless about a year before I started school. I understand what it is like to overcome seemingly insurmountable odds to achieve a goal. But I also try hard to always remember my own privilege that worked for me in order to get there, and I know that the majority of graduate degree seekers have more privilege than I do.

I think that your story proves my point. You've overcome some pretty thought situations and you've beat the odds by working hard and finishing school. Are you privileged now? OF COURSE YOU ARE! you have (or you're about to get) a college degree, at your age, and with three kids. Do you know how many people get to do that? not many. I am sure it has been hard and you've had to work a lot to get to where you are.

I got rejected from every single school I applied to last year. Instead of saying "Oh, education is for the privileged" I sat down, looked at my application and figured out what needed to be improved. And I worked on it, and I rewrote my personals statement 1000 times, and i talked to my professors about the LoRs, etc. and guess what? It worked. I am privileged because I worked to network and build a reasonable amount of cultural capital around me that I will be able to use throughout my career.

anyway, I think any aspiring sociologist understands a little bit of privilege and know that there are ways to work around it. So you're not entirely wrong by saying that higher education is for a select few. But many of us in this forum are living proof that you can work around that system that benefits the privileged few. That's all I'm saying. Maybe Milkman needs to spend more time on his application, or he needs some research experience.

[focused]

i dont know about social darwinism, but this process certainly makes me think of cultural hegemony...anybody notice how the majority of grad students in the social sciences (within the ivies anyway) are white and have parents with summer homes? i feel like its so hard to prove to ad coms that you are worth their investment when you come from an underprivileged background and from parents sans social capital...

I'm actually interested in these types of phenomena from an academic perspective, but I do not believe that class reproduction is as prominent in academia as in other, especially professional, fields. Perhaps my perception is flawed, and I am certainly not suggesting that everyone has equal opportunity. Indeed, those with more social/economic capital likely attended more prestigious undergraduate schools, allowing them to both interact with leading professors in their respective fields and learn about real academic research. So although class is undeniably reproduced through education, I don't think that the stratifying processes are actually occurring at the time of graduate admissions; I think they happened long before this point. Adcomms are investing in those they believe are good thinkers and researchers. To the extent that money, your undergraduate education, and your close networks (often a function of social class) affect your ability as a thinker/researcher, adcomms may appear to be the catalyst of class reproduction in academia.

Personally, I came from a working class family and lived in a declining town with one of the lowest-ranked high schools in my (then) state. However, I attended an Ivy university for undergrad. So while I was not originally culturally or financially privileged, my undergrad opportunities strongly influenced both my decision to pursue grad school and my ability to be accepted.

It's an important topic, and I would be interested to hear others views. I know this can be a sensitive issue, so let's try to play nicely.

[captiv8ed]

I think that your story proves my point. You've overcome some pretty thought situations and you've beat the odds by working hard and finishing school. Are you privileged now? OF COURSE YOU ARE! you have (or you're about to get) a college degree, at your age, and with three kids. Do you know how many people get to do that? not many. I am sure it has been hard and you've had to work a lot to get to where you are.

I got rejected from every single school I applied to last year. Instead of saying "Oh, education is for the privileged" I sat down, looked at my application and figured out what needed to be improved. And I worked on it, and I rewrote my personals statement 1000 times, and i talked to my professors about the LoRs, etc. and guess what? It worked. I am privileged because I worked to network and build a reasonable amount of cultural capital around me that I will be able to use throughout my career.

anyway, I think any aspiring sociologist understands a little bit of privilege and know that there are ways to work around it. So you're not entirely wrong by saying that higher education is for a select few. But many of us in this forum are living proof that you can work around that system that benefits the privileged few. That's all I'm saying. Maybe Milkman needs to spend more time on his application, or he needs some research experience.

I think you and I just interpret the comment differently. I didn't see Milkman's reply as a whiny excuse so much as a statement of empirical fact. I am an outlier in the graduate school admission process. Some people can work the system, but it is a hell of a lot harder to do.

Also, I don't know enough about Milkman's application to be able to say what he needs to change or not change. This was an incredibly hard year, and the process is absolutely screwy anyway. I applied to 7 schools and got into 1. If I hadn't applied to that one school (which wasn't even on my radar) I wouldn't have gotten in anywhere. I was waitlisted at School X, which has a lower ranking than the school I got into. One of my letters of recommendation is written by the department chair of School X's dept. And I got waitlisted. I was rejected from a school that is ranked lower and where I know my numbers fell right into their mean, and where the dean sent along a personal note to the dept saying he would like to work with me. There is no rhyme or reason.

[radquish7]

I agree, it is a hell of a lot harder, even if you have the objective criteria (GRE, GPA) necessary to be successful in graduate school (in any realm really), if you don’t have the social and cultural capital (the right social networks, and the knowledge to navigate those social networks) then it is going to be much harder for you to be successful in any institution. I for example, attended a very prestigious college because I was pushed my immigrant family to study hard and attain the right objective criteria to be successful. However, my parents position in society put me at a real disadvantage socially. Sure, I believe I have the capacity to be successful in academia, BUT its been a real struggle for me to learn the institutional ropes of academia. Things like how to reach out to professors, how to network…require a sense of entitlement that has been really hard for me to achieve and learn. (and is class specific)

[Milkman95th]

First, I did not mean to offend anyone nor was I trying to do so with my comments. Like captiv8ed said, I was simply trying to state an “empirical fact” regarding higher education. The simple fact is that higher education has always been for the privileged. From the Greek academies to today’s institutions – they are setup to allow only a select, small percentage of the population in. There are a few million graduate students worldwide out of an eligible population of billions, which means the few attending are a privileged minority. However, it does not matter if you are rich or poor or in between, higher education either elevates or maintains your social standing (we are all aware of the benefits of a graduate degree).

Lastly, everything seems to have gotten personal in this thread. There is no need to make personal comments about people when we should just be making general statements and if you want you can bring in your personal experiences to supplement your point (as many have). How my application was brought up is news to me. Since it was, I figuring I will quickly explain it. I graduated in June with an American history degree with the intentions of going to graduate school in museum studies, as I planned to pursue a career as a curator. However, about six months before I graduated, I decided to create a senior project about the state of higher education (for reasons to long to mention). After I was done with the project, I had professors and heads of departments begging me (literally) to join their graduate policy studies program. But, I did not want a policy studies degree. For some reason or another, I had a weird desire to want a sociology degree. Having never taking any sociology classes with almost no background in the field, I applied anyway. Out of the two schools I applied for, I was waitlist by one and rejected by the other. For the past year or so I have been reading as much about sociology as I can on my own. Obviously it paid off, because I was waitlisted by a program that highly desires a sociology undergraduate degree to be admitted to the program. To top it off, I did not even take the GRE.

I worked my ass off to get into the program like many say they have to. Yet, it does not eliminate the fact that higher ed. is for the privileged. I (we) are exceptions to the rule.

[jacib]

Warning: this is going to be very poorly articulated. Please forgive me, and try to show some understanding.

Let me give a counter-point to this whole privilege thing: it's not that people with working class background are selected against, actively or passive (well yes passively of course they are... but not to some intense degree after undergraduate institution is taken into effect--and I think that kind of thing would have an effect in every single sector). I think the PhD applicant pool in the Humanities and Social Sciences is incredibly self selecting. I think the pressures of family, salary, etc. usually selects against people going into academia. I mean, presumably we are some of the smartest people, right? I mean, why else would we think we'd be good enough to teach the nation's best and brightest. Well going into academia is a hugely stupid choice for us then, because we could make much more money in other fields. I know my father has had a lot of promising sociology students who have been discouraged from the field by their parents (especially working class parents and recent immigrant parents).

I mean, even at the hugely priviliged place I teach now, there are essentially two main acceptable career paths: business or engineering. Occasionally, you'll get an architect or a doctor (presumably the lawyers don't leave Turkey; I only deal with those going abroad). Very occasionally I'll see a visual artist, who is obviously quite privileged... but even those people are normally just encouraged to go into architecture. These kids know their career path before you even start college. Sure some people must deviate from it (I only see them on the high school end of university), but I think in many communities there are a lot of parental/community pressures to conform to the ideal of "good paying job", not some ideal about "love of learning". For the amount of time we're going to be in school, we're totally wasting our time, especially if we're expected to take care of our folks when we get older. We could be doctors or lawyers, or go into business (finance if we're good with numbers, marketing if we're good with people). Years-in-school basically has a pretty clear relationship with higher salaries... but that peaks before PhD (I think it peaks after two or three or maybe four years of graduate education). We'll basically be too educated to maximize our salary potentials.

Also someone made the point about approaching professors: My father is a professor. I would talk with professors every time my parents had a party. I literally grew up interacting with professors abnormally frequently. But still, during undergrad, there was only one full professor beyond my thesis adviser that I ever developed a relationship with, and that's as much his doing (and I didn't like bothering my thesis adviser...). I think a lot of people think that they'd be wasting a professor's time, and it's not necessarily a class thing. I never "reached out" to a professor, though I thoroughly regret that decision. My third recommendation was written by a graduate student, who paid his own way through college, through (athletic?) scholarships and work. He used to be the bouncer at a strip club. Beyond that, I think I went to office hours only once or twice in four years, and always with very specific questions. That part is not just class but socialization in general.

I won't hide that I had several discrete advantages over most of you because my father is a sociology professor (he could tell me what was up with bits of the academic process, help me figure out schools to apply to, and reread my statement.... though my sister confessed to me in the end my dad thought my statement was "alright" and writing sample was "only okay". I still think my statement was awesome and my writing sample was good), but I think these come from having parents in academia, not from my (upper) middle class upbringing. While I do think things like social networks and having a little "pull" do have an advantage in undergraduate admissions, I'm not sure exactly how they'd manifest in graduate admission. My dad was good friends with the chair of a department I got rejected from (and the department which was one of my best fits, and a good bit lower ranked than the school I actually got into). Though in all honesty, I'm interested in hearing about other concrete ways that class might affect graduate admission in other than the obvious ways (like paying for a GRE course and having a well known undergraduate degree, or things like being able to get internships, especially the unpaid kind, and obviously carrying less debt from undergrad). I feel like I'm missing something. And as a sociologist (tehehe that still feels funny to say), I'm curious what.

[jacib]

Yo and please don't yell at me if I said something wrong; as future teachers, instead offer a gentle corrective to my errors.

[captiv8ed]

Jacib, I will take a stab with absolutely no yelling ;)Class stratification education is my passion.

First let me say I am speaking about middle class privilege versus working class. I think that it is easier to envision a cut in lifetime earning potential because university professor is a high status occupation.

Now, as to the way privilege can sneak in:

Have you read Unequal Childhoods by Annette Lareau? It isn't just about networking, its knowing how to navigate and feeling a sense of entitlement (not in a bad way) Many middle class kids are taught these lessons pretty much from birth. I was listening to an interview with Lareau (it was on the achievement gap and how to overcome it) and she was talking about household dinners she sat in on, where professional class parents were using SAT words with their kids just sitting around the dinner table. In her experience, professional class kids are more likely to see their parents act as advocates as well.

Its also important to realize that some folks have to overcome a family background of anti-illectualism. This certainly was the case for me. I sat down with my dad in my senior year and told him I wanted to go to college and he looked over the brochure and said, "How are you going to pay for it?" and handed it back to me. End of discussion. I didn't know anything about financial aid. My best friend was a little more proactive and met with our school counselor. He said, "How much money do you have?" and she said she had about $2000. (which she had saved up from her babysitting jobs). He said okay, it looks like you can afford to go here. He never told her to fill out a FAFSA. She wanted to be a doctor and had planned to be one all of her life. But her family was dirt poor. She shuffled off to the school he told her to go to, which was a heavy duty engineering school. Many of her profressors were from the Middle East and had extremely thick accents, so she quickly got lost in math. Yes, she could have and should have gone to an advisor, but when you are 18 and have spent ten years of your life being molested by your step father, grandfather, and cousin, it can interfere with the self esteem. So when she couldn't do it, she just figured she wasn't cut out for college and dropped out.

Finally, there are studies that have been done about the effect college can have on working class students. Depending on the type of background they are coming from, they can get to this very awkward place where they don't fit in with their families but don't feel fully comfortable around academics. This is definitely the case for me. I can't really talk about what I am studying with my family because they think I think I am too good for them when talk about it, or it makes them feel stupid. But I feel hick-ish and unrefined around academics. When I first attempted college, I was 20 and had been working as a stripper for two years. I felt SO out of place in a classroom with freshman who were living in the dorms and hanging out and partying. I dropped out after a semester. I really felt I didn't belong there. Now it is 15 years later and I am mature to overcome that feeling, but it is still a struggle.

Other possible issues: undocumented workers (which plays havoc on the financial aid game, women who are coming from a culture where their parents believe it is the woman's job to get married and have babies and therefore are wasting their time on education (yes they still exist), students who are overcoming language barriers, drug problems, mental health issues, family financial issues (ie, they need to work to support their parents). And then there are students who have not received decent foundational education. I was a TA last quarter and one of my students is a junior and she wants to go to law school. But she can't write sentences coherently or synthesize readings. And she has been passed through and passed through.

I have more but I am going to post this because I have some memory of a relevant reading and I need to find it.

[taiwanadian]

I think mentioning privilege is such a touchy subject because it often negates people's hard work.. It is hard to clarify that while one can be extremely privileged, many or most still work incredibly hard. That being said, I do believe that those who grew up less privileged face challenges that are different from those who perhaps grew up in a wealthier/economically stable family/community. Throughout this entire application process, I was struck by how expensive it was. Each school's application fee ranged from $70 to $105. I applied to 10. Then, I had to send one or two transcripts, $10 each, to each school. Then order the $20/score report GRE scores to be sent. The whole application process cost about $1,000. I was fortunate that my parents were able to support my application fees while my rent, car, and other bills ate away at my monthly checks. If my parents hadn't helped me, there would have been absolutely no way I could have applied to this many schools (granted, I am getting rejected everywhere ). True, there are application fee waivers, but not everyone qualifies for them.

Internships, volunteer work, credit-based research experiences... activities such as these tend to be reserved for students who are economically well-off. Think about being a full-time student, working about 30-40 hours a week just to support themselves.. would it be possible to squeeze in any unpaid work when buying food and paying tuition has already become a serious problem?

It is not to say that those who come from more privileged backgrounds didn't work as hard. In fact, many of us (I consider myself to be relatively privileged because my parents were able to support my out-of-state tuition while I was in college), have to work twice as hard to be recognized by our colleagues that we DO work hard for our grades.. But at the same time, we must recognize that there are those who struggle everyday just to get to a level playing field. It is unfair to negate the hard work and challenges of the privileged, but at the same time, it is unfair to negate the difficulties that others face, and that the privilged were immune to.

I can't remember where I read this, and I know I totally don't have it worded correctly but.. Is it fair to unbound and take someone who was in chains for years, bring them to a track, and tell them they can now race equally with everyone else?

[radquish7]

ok, so you obviously dont get it. thats the point...that class affects graduate admissions in NON CONCRETE WAYS. there have been studies in social psychology that show the effects of social class on choice...blue collar workers preferred products that allowed them to blend in with their peers whereas white collar workers preferred products that differentiated them from their peers. you see, class or (sub)culture if you will, influence our whole psychology and sense of self. that is what i was trying to say by mentioning that i didnt know how or even thought i could approach professors. social environment influences cognition. and the problem with graduate school is that because higher education has been associated and run by a fraction of society for so long (initially rich male whites), the very way it is structured leaves people out simply because it assumes a way of thinking already.

[taiwanadian]

ok, so you obviously dont get it. thats the point...that class affects graduate admissions in NON CONCRETE WAYS. there have been studies in social psychology that show the effects of social class on choice...blue collar workers preferred products that allowed them to blend in with their peers whereas white collar workers preferred products that differentiated them from their peers. you see, class or (sub)culture if you will, influence our whole psychology and sense of self. that is what i was trying to say by mentioning that i didnt know how or even thought i could approach professors. social environment influences cognition. and the problem with graduate school is that because higher education has been associated and run by a fraction of society for so long (initially rich male whites), the very way it is structured leaves people out simply because it assumes a way of thinking already.

I agree with you on how graduate school was exclusive to certain members and this by itself creates a significant problem(And i remember a similar psych study where they used pens!)

It reminds me of reading about schools in impoverished areas.. where the schools have no money, extracurricular activities are virtually nonexistent, and no resources (books, computers..etc).. It's interesting that in the US, kids are assigned to go to certain schools because of where they live.. causing a disadvantage and vicious cycle of poverty.. Often, teachers at those schools either don't have the means to encourage students to pursue higher education (beyond high school), or often it is assumed that the kids will not. They're sent to job-training classes and workshops that prepare them for jumping right into the workforce after high school graduation. With a high school diploma, their job options are slim, and with no classes that foster any dream/thinking beyond high school (going to college, not to mention graduate school).. Many people simply follow the track that the schools set them for. Graduate from high school, and start working at jobs that probably do not pay well, do not offer health insurance, and continue to live in poverty.

[radquish7]

by the way, my comment was a response to jacib, not the 2 posts after mine captiv8ted, i totally agree!

[gezzloume]

Hey everyone, I love the thread but I was wondering: How many times is TOO many times to apply to graduate school (same program and same degree applying to but different schools)?

I mean 2 years seems to be the average I am hearing in this forum but so far I have applied to graduate school about 1.5 times (2009 - half tried on my applications to two schools and 2010 - tried really hard on my applications to 4 schools ~however I am still waiting to hear back from them).

[socialcomm]

Hey everyone, I love the thread but I was wondering: How many times is TOO many times to apply to graduate school (same program and same degree applying to but different schools)?

I mean 2 years seems to be the average I am hearing in this forum but so far I have applied to graduate school about 1.5 times (2009 - half tried on my applications to two schools and 2010 - tried really hard on my applications to 4 schools ~however I am still waiting to hear back from them).

I'm not sure what 'half tried' means, but I think the number of times you apply really depends on a lot of factors. Do you have the time/resources to apply again? Have you received any feedback as to why you weren't accepted or what might be done to make your application stronger? Sometimes there are issues you have no control over that ultimately determine if you get in or not (economy, profs leaving). This was my second round and if I didn't get in, I would have tried again, but that was just my personal decision.

[taiwanadian]

Hey everyone, I love the thread but I was wondering: How many times is TOO many times to apply to graduate school (same program and same degree applying to but different schools)?

I mean 2 years seems to be the average I am hearing in this forum but so far I have applied to graduate school about 1.5 times (2009 - half tried on my applications to two schools and 2010 - tried really hard on my applications to 4 schools ~however I am still waiting to hear back from them).

Hmm, since you're talking about same program & degree, but different schools.. I feel like there really is no limit. Depending how on well you prepare/improve your applications prior to each try. Say for example, you could be rejected one year because a school that really wanted to accept you didn't have enough funding, so trying again may be a good option. But i'd say after 2 or 3 tries with the same material and no luck, I would try to gain more experience to improve my chances. Personally I might give it 3 to 4 tries overall

[St. Jude]

Jacib, I will take a stab with absolutely no yelling ;)Class stratification education is my passion.

First let me say I am speaking about middle class privilege versus working class. I think that it is easier to envision a cut in lifetime earning potential because university professor is a high status occupation.

Now, as to the way privilege can sneak in:

Have you read Unequal Childhoods by Annette Lareau? It isn't just about networking, its knowing how to navigate and feeling a sense of entitlement (not in a bad way) Many middle class kids are taught these lessons pretty much from birth. I was listening to an interview with Lareau (it was on the achievement gap and how to overcome it) and she was talking about household dinners she sat in on, where professional class parents were using SAT words with their kids just sitting around the dinner table. In her experience, professional class kids are more likely to see their parents act as advocates as well.

Its also important to realize that some folks have to overcome a family background of anti-illectualism. This certainly was the case for me. I sat down with my dad in my senior year and told him I wanted to go to college and he looked over the brochure and said, "How are you going to pay for it?" and handed it back to me. End of discussion. I didn't know anything about financial aid. My best friend was a little more proactive and met with our school counselor. He said, "How much money do you have?" and she said she had about $2000. (which she had saved up from her babysitting jobs). He said okay, it looks like you can afford to go here. He never told her to fill out a FAFSA. She wanted to be a doctor and had planned to be one all of her life. But her family was dirt poor. She shuffled off to the school he told her to go to, which was a heavy duty engineering school. Many of her profressors were from the Middle East and had extremely thick accents, so she quickly got lost in math. Yes, she could have and should have gone to an advisor, but when you are 18 and have spent ten years of your life being molested by your step father, grandfather, and cousin, it can interfere with the self esteem. So when she couldn't do it, she just figured she wasn't cut out for college and dropped out.

Finally, there are studies that have been done about the effect college can have on working class students. Depending on the type of background they are coming from, they can get to this very awkward place where they don't fit in with their families but don't feel fully comfortable around academics. This is definitely the case for me. I can't really talk about what I am studying with my family because they think I think I am too good for them when talk about it, or it makes them feel stupid. But I feel hick-ish and unrefined around academics. When I first attempted college, I was 20 and had been working as a stripper for two years. I felt SO out of place in a classroom with freshman who were living in the dorms and hanging out and partying. I dropped out after a semester. I really felt I didn't belong there. Now it is 15 years later and I am mature to overcome that feeling, but it is still a struggle.

Other possible issues: undocumented workers (which plays havoc on the financial aid game, women who are coming from a culture where their parents believe it is the woman's job to get married and have babies and therefore are wasting their time on education (yes they still exist), students who are overcoming language barriers, drug problems, mental health issues, family financial issues (ie, they need to work to support their parents). And then there are students who have not received decent foundational education. I was a TA last quarter and one of my students is a junior and she wants to go to law school. But she can't write sentences coherently or synthesize readings. And she has been passed through and passed through.

I have more but I am going to post this because I have some memory of a relevant reading and I need to find it.

I agree with all of this! I love Laraeu! I love that book. So good.

The only question I have is what do mean when you say "Other possible issues: undocumented workers (which plays havoc on the financial aid game"? I am not sure what you are trying to say here.