Losing Faith in a Program's Selectivity?

[tepidtenacity]

Is it wrong to dismiss a program based on its lack of selectivity?

I was lucky to get acceptances at two very good programs. I have a classmate who also go accepted into the same university in an unrelated field (but still one they are very highly ranked for). The problem is that I do not believe this classmate is qualified at all; for example, he would routinely struggle with homework with classes in his major, and would always ask me if he could copy mine.

I feel like I'm being completely snobby, but the fact he got in really shakes my faith in the program's reputation. Am I wrong in thinking like this?

[socialpsych]

I really don't want to sound harsh, but I think there are at least three potential problems with the way you're thinking about this.

1. People grow a lot during graduate school. Maybe your classmate will go on to do great on the job market and be a well respected researcher in his field. When you're judging the grad school, that's what really matters, not how he looks when he comes in.

2. Even if you're right that your classmate had no business being accepted, you shouldn't dismiss the program that accepted him without knowing more about the students as a whole. If, hypothetically, you were in the same field, I would advise you to reserve judgment until you've talked to multiple students in the program or (preferably) visited. If you feel like you don't fit in socially and don't respect several of them, that could be a problem (with your fit with the program, if not with the program per se). However, if there is just one person you feel this way about, don't worry about it.

3. However, those considerations aren't relevant given that you're not even in the same field! Even if the program that accepted this guy is a dud, that has no bearing whatsoever on the reputation of your program. Don't make the mistake of judging the prestige of the university as a whole, because, since you're a grad student, that isn't what matters anymore. It's about prestige within your field now.

[tepidtenacity]

I really don't want to sound harsh, but I think there are at least three potential problems with the way you're thinking about this.

1. People grow a lot during graduate school. Maybe your classmate will go on to do great on the job market and be a well respected researcher in his field. When you're judging the grad school, that's what really matters, not how he looks when he comes in.

2. Even if you're right that your classmate had no business being accepted, you shouldn't dismiss the program that accepted him without knowing more about the students as a whole. If, hypothetically, you were in the same field, I would advise you to reserve judgment until you've talked to multiple students in the program or (preferably) visited. If you feel like you don't fit in socially and don't respect several of them, that could be a problem (with your fit with the program, if not with the program per se). However, if there is just one person you feel this way about, don't worry about it.

3. However, those considerations aren't relevant given that you're not even in the same field! Even if the program that accepted this guy is a dud, that has no bearing whatsoever on the reputation of your program. Don't make the mistake of judging the prestige of the university as a whole, because, since you're a grad student, that isn't what matters anymore. It's about prestige within your field now.

3) I'm doing an interdisciplinary field, and his field is partially covered by mine.

2) Yep, I was planning on talking to some people from his field when I go to visit.

1) Is this true? I was under the assumption that grad schools don't want people with potential, but rather people who have already developed skills, know what they want to do, etc.

[sciencegal]

For what it's worth, our program looks for potential. No one comes in with the skills to do the kind of research we do in our department. We look for open minds, desire, and potential as well as a baseline of developed skills.

[JerryLandis]

If the person has always gotten by copying other people's work, how is the graduate program to know he's not as intelligent or hard-working as he looks on paper?

I know what you mean about being wary of attending a place that seems to accept just anyone. But every university admits the occasional dud, no matter how selective the place may be. My undergrad institution is pretty competitive, but it has a far lower threshold of acceptance for international students because tuition is higher for those who are from outside the country. This means that in a typical class, you may get a sprinkling of extremely intelligent folk with both very intelligent and very dumb international students (usually Americans). Sure, sometimes it's frustrating to sit in a class with someone who seems to think that Africa is a country, one that exists solely for the purpose of requiring charity bakesales. But the occasional dud doesn't really have much of an effect overall on the quality of education provided. People who aren't really qualified to be there in the first place will not do well, and unless they comprise the majority of the student body, they won't have an effect on how your degree is received by future employers.

[nurye27]

I agree with JerryLandis.

There is always the occasional dud. Everywhere. Even at the best schools. On the other hand, there is also always the unrecognized genius.

My MA thesis advisor who is also the chair of his department admitted that mistakes in the admissions process happen. For instance, they would sometimes admit students with no financial award, but that student would turn out to be one the best of his cohort, better than some who got in on a full scholarship. And when I look at some of the PhD students at the place where I did my MA, I have to agree with the "occasional dud" theory even more. The admissions process just isn't infallible. I'm sure that in such cases professors ultimately realize this and regret their choices as well.

Edited February 19, 2010 by nurye27

[Genomic Repairman]

Why do you give a crap about the guy getting in? If he is as bad as you say he will probably end up getting thrown out on his ear. Just be glad for your own acceptance and work hard. Grow up and stop worrying about everyone else and focus on your work, you know the stuff that will make you successful. And yes you do come off snobby.

[nurye27]

For what it's worth, I do think this is a legitimate concern. How selective a program is, how qualified your peers are, etc. are important things that need to be taken into consideration when making your decision. The only thing is that one single example probably does not suffice to make a well informed choice. Perhaps you can draw yourself a better picture when you attend Admit Day and talk to the various people there.

[liszt85]

1) Is this true? I was under the assumption that grad schools don't want people with potential, but rather people who have already developed skills, know what they want to do, etc.

You'll be amazed by how sometimes high achievers break when they get to grad school whereas some others (who may not have had stellar grades but have shown clear signs of being successful in grad school) fit right in. I didn't have stellar grades, didn't have professors who thought highly of me because my research interests were never in "high energy physics" or "condensed matter physics" which were the only research areas that professors were interested in where I did my undergraduate degree. As you see, I'm now in a Psychology PhD program at a very decent school. My current adviser saw the research that I had (almost) independently done which was something he was exploring to use in his own research. I've been here for a quarter and a half and have started writing my first first author paper for a top journal. Some others, who got in with university fellowships, have been crumbling under the pressure (I can't give you too many details here).

So be careful not to overestimate your ability to succeed in grad school based on just your performance in undergrad. Also don't underestimate the other "lazy" guy's potential. I was constantly labeled a lazy guy at my ug university. The postdoc in my lab now tells me very often that I'm way more hard working than the others in the lab and I've been making much more progress than them. Its unfortunate that I have to make this argument using my own case as an example because it might not motivate you to take me seriously.. but I take that risk while saying this because you'll see what I mean when you start a grad program. Grades suddenly won't matter.. what will matter is your ability to come up with ideas and your ability to implement them efficiently. So the advice I have for you are to set your priorities right at this point because when people go into grad school with this kind of mentality, they are sometimes shocked by how different grad school is from undergrad.

[tepidtenacity]

Ok, I've been getting attacked a bit, so let me defend myself a bit. He also showed me his entire resume/transcript, and I know his entire research history since the little he's done has been with my housemate, who complains about him stealing credit and not being a contributing force.

I don't know about the rest of you, but for me the most important thing in grad school is the environment, including professors and other grad students. I expect other grad students to provide good feedback and insight into my projects, just like I will do for them if I am knowledgeable in their field. Thus, I was worried that this program selected primarily for people like the person in question, which I am sure would not help me out at all and probably would detract from the research environment.

That being said, I have visited the college and established that he is indeed a dud and that the other grad students are pretty freaking brilliant (much more than myself), so this whole issue has been cleared up. Thanks for all the good responses; I guess it really was contingent on my visit there.

[dant.gwyrdd]

It's not really that important who gets in to grad school, what's far more important is who gets out. If he's really like you think he is then I doubt he'll stick it out in there until the end. However, if he succeeds in grad school, you might want to revisit your impression of him, because maybe there's something to him that you just weren't privy to. I know from my own case that I'm considered anything from lazy to brilliant, a jerk to a very considerate guy... all depending on who you talk to.

[prolixity]

Honestly, I'd just worry about myself and not others. It seems kind of petty to care whether or not another classmate got into the same school.

[gradadvice]

Is it wrong to dismiss a program based on its lack of selectivity?

I was lucky to get acceptances at two very good programs. I have a classmate who also go accepted into the same university in an unrelated field (but still one they are very highly ranked for). The problem is that I do not believe this classmate is qualified at all; for example, he would routinely struggle with homework with classes in his major, and would always ask me if he could copy mine.

I feel like I'm being completely snobby, but the fact he got in really shakes my faith in the program's reputation. Am I wrong in thinking like this?

Selectivity is a by product of a decent program, it is by no means an important metric in of itself. What is important is finding a good advisor match. Large collections of good advisors tend to collect at the top schools, but plenty of high quality professors can be found elsewhere. Future jobs will not take into account the name of your graduate school, but rather the name of your advisor and your own body of work. Choosing a graduate school based on its selectivity alone is perhaps the worst possible idea for any incoming graduate student. Find a good advisor match through email and visits and go to that school.

[myrrh]

I think it's quite difficulty for the schools to say who is really promising, thus the selectivity should not be blamed on. We are just entering the graduate programs, and I guess most of us don't really have ideas about how different is it to be a successful grad student (or even a researcher) from just being a good student. I've seen some student very very good at college education but just fair outputs during grad study: they have shining GPA, they learned all the stuffs well in undergrad program and they can find out a safe direction for their graduate studies. However, sometimes (if we don't say always) the graduate studies were also determined by the methodological sense, the creativity and the problem solving abilities. All these stuffs are very hard to be shown clearly enough in a short SoP, a term paper writing sample or any GPA or CV.

As selecting the "right" student is not as easy as you think, I would suggest your taking easy about your classmate's admission. Perhaps he has a very promising research direction in his SoP (even though he could made it just because he's lucky), or perhaps he has a good fit to some interests of the department.

Plus, since you guys are in classmates right now, I can just assume that in the eyes of adcomm, the difference between you two is comparatively minor, given that the whole applicants could be from very very very different educational backgrounds.

[somethingelse]

Ok, I've been getting attacked a bit, so let me defend myself a bit. He also showed me his entire resume/transcript, and I know his entire research history since the little he's done has been with my housemate, who complains about him stealing credit and not being a contributing force.

I don't know about the rest of you, but for me the most important thing in grad school is the environment, including professors and other grad students. I expect other grad students to provide good feedback and insight into my projects, just like I will do for them if I am knowledgeable in their field. Thus, I was worried that this program selected primarily for people like the person in question, which I am sure would not help me out at all and probably would detract from the research environment.

That being said, I have visited the college and established that he is indeed a dud and that the other grad students are pretty freaking brilliant (much more than myself), so this whole issue has been cleared up. Thanks for all the good responses; I guess it really was contingent on my visit there.

First off, you're not being attacked; you asked if it was right for you to think this way and you got responses. They might be blunt, but it sounds like you could use it. Criticising your line of reasoning does not qualify as an attack.

Second, why are you concerned about how or why this other guy got accepted to the program? What does it matter in the long run? I think this obsession of yours is really quite revealing of the need to feel special and perhaps a need to feel like you've suddenly been accepted into an elite social circle. That's simply not a sign of good character, and if I were you, I'd be more concerned about YOUR ability to make it in the program, not someone else's. After all, sometimes people get in based on their personal qualities, not their quantifiable performance.

If the guy really is a leech, get over it. You will encounter leeches throughout your life, with positions you think they don't deserve or can't handle and who use others to help them achieve their ambitions. They're everywhere, in business, government, politics, construction, and academia.

In conclusion, I think you just need to grow up a little bit.

Edited February 22, 2010 by somethingelse