what if?

[LiteratureMajor]

Yes, I think that the "sour grapes" indictment is too dismissive, and typically is leveled by those who don't have a problem getting into programs, anecdotal evidence aside.

In terms of more hard evidence, just go to any major research university's English faculty page. Look at where they all received their graduate degrees. Make it a drinking game. First variation: a shot of tequila for every degree from a top-30 program. Whoever is the last to pass out wins. Second variation: a shot of tequila for every degree *not* from a top-30 program. Whoever is the *first* to pass out wins.

Clever game idea. To add to the discussion, an adcom member at a university asked me flat-out where I obtained my degrees and let's just say that for some programs, background does indeed matter.

[Branwen daughter of Llyr]

Ok - let me qualify this some:

I graduated from a tier-3 school. not terrific, not bad, a HUGE state school, but with a small English dept.

However - my 3 LOR writers, profs at the department and whom I worked closely with are well respected scholars in the field - 1 with a PhD from Stanford, 1 with a PhD from WashU, and 1 with a PhD from Northwestern. All of them publish extensively and do interesting research.

Graduates from my department HAVE gotten in to several top-tier English PhDs, and although I was encouraged by my LOR writers to "broaden the pool of applications" (which I'm doing next year), none of them stated or even hinted that graduating from my Alma Mater would in any way hurt my chances of getting into Yale, etc. (and they were brutally honest about everything else, including how hard it is to get in anywhere, so apply to quite a few places, job prospects after, I should do it only if I really love it, etc.).

I can't imagine that adcoms are SO backwards that they don't look at the total application rather than just where you graduated from. If your LOR writers (even from a less prestigious university) are respected scholars in the field, have good PhD's themselves, research and publish and go to conferences (and there are PLENTY U's that have a terrific English department for undergrad, with great profs), I think that should compensate quite a lot for the Alma mater NOT being a tier-1.

Let's not get too hysterical about it, shall we?

[TC3]

Yes, I certainly don't mean to make blanket statements.

Edited February 20, 2010 by TC3

[minnares]

And I really don't mean to fight or squabble. We're all just trying to make it, in the end. I do wish, though that privilege were more of an open subject of discussion.

The fact that some have used the term Podunk U speaks to and demonstrates that privilege and snobbery. I went to a Pac-10 school, but it was still a state university in the Pacific Northwest. I also find the notion that a "pedigreed" university will more rigorously train a student and on the quality of the instructors, which does not necessarily have anything to do with a professor's publications and writing ability. I think that rigor falls on the student. Even in such institutions, there are those who have the Cs get degrees mentality. It's up to the student to seek out TAships, RAships, fellowships, and extracurriculars. It's up to the student to get the grades and the GRE scores. However, you are absolutely correct in your assessment that there is an unspoken gap between those who can and those who are allowed. Further, there is an element to this that I haven't seen brought up yet, that being the gap between teaching ability and ability in the subject area. I wonder how many on these boards took and actively sought out pedagogical training for their subject area prior to applying. One of my minors was in pedagogy for this precise reason. Just because someone is an excellent writer and researcher, it doesn't mean they will have any skill to transmit that knowledge in a classroom setting. So you might get well known scholars teaching at these "pedigreed" schools, but that tells me nothing about their ability as instructors. The two are separate skill sets, which is why we've all run into professors we know are brilliant but we also know are horrendous instructors (or have no business teaching whatsoever). Just my two cents, for what it's worth. I appreciate that you're brave enough to bring up and debate this subject TC3. I am largely in agreement with you and wondered if someone would broach the subject on the boards. It'd be interesting to see a demographic study on these boards, wouldn't it?

~ m

Edited February 20, 2010 by minnares

[Branwen daughter of Llyr]

On 2/20/2010 at 11:51 AM, TC3 said:

I'd prefer that honestly engaging issues of privilege and class not be dismissed as "hysterical." I've posted a more extensive defense of my position on the "what if?" thread (especially my critique of "up by your bootstraps" rhetoric), but I'll add here that it's not about committees being backwards, but it's more about the limitations of time and attention that force otherwise reasonable people to make dismissive decisions. Imagine that in addition to normal teaching, research and other committee work, you have two weeks to sift through *hundreds* of applications. There isn't time nor psychological energy to consider each application holistically. And if you're comparing two candidates who at a superficial glance seem to be similar in terms of quality, do you (a) give it a more in-depth look or ( keep the one from Virginia, Michigan, or Dartmouth and toss the one from State Branch U.?

I think that institutional privilege is one of the touchiest subjects in humanities Academe, because the Academy has otherwise taken such a notable turn towards social activism and awareness. To recognize that ingrained prejudice would be to unearth a damning hypocrisy.

And I really don't mean to fight or squabble. We're all just trying to make it, in the end. I do wish, though that privilege were more of an open subject of discussion.

The hysterical comment wasn't aimed particularly at you, TC3 .

Look - there is an understanding that - yes - adcoms are stressed during apps time. no doubt. and i'm sure that this does occur here or there. But I've been doing a lot of research these past few weeks regarding profs I'd like to work with and where I want to apply for 2011, and some of the most interesting profs got their BA's at state schools, and then went on to top-tier, and one prof at Yale got her PhD from WashU (A great school, mind you, but it's definitely not Ivy).

I think my main point here, is don't get discouraged because of the privilege issue. Don't decide to not apply to certain schools because of it. and if you do feel at a disadvantage because of it - work against it! Contact the prof you want to work with, ask questions, show interest, read up on scholarly journals, do what ever you can so that your name is remembered not just as one of the pile. Come fall, I'll be emailing a whole bunch of profs before i send out apps, go to the states and visit the schools and meet with whomever I can. I'm aware that I didn't graduate from an UG Ivy or top-tier. But I refuse to believe that it's going to stop me from going to a fantastic grad school that I have a good fit with, despite the "easy choice" of taking ppl who have graduated from UVA rather than myself.

I had terrific profs in undergrad, and the next year will be spent in making my app a hell of a lot more appealing, including taking Latin classes, re-writing my honors thesis, and trying to get my hand on any piece of scholarship in my field I can, while still not in the US or a student (a difficult task). I'm definitely NOT going to give up in advance due to "privilege" nor, do I think, should you or anyone else. After all, if my favorite professor from Undergrad could manage to get into Yale for her PhD in medieval lit in the 60's, being black and from Alabama, I think the rest of us can at least make an effort to try to follow our dreams.

[diehtc0ke]

As one of those students from a smaller and (I'm fairly certain) unknown department (I don't mind sharing that I graduated from one of the colleges in the CUNY system, which is a large public institution in New York City. My particular school sees maybe four or five students per year who are serious about going to graduate school for anything more than an MA to bolster their chances at getting a teaching job at the high school level), I have to tell you all that, in my case, it basically takes an entire department to rally around those students who want to get their PhD in this field. I'm lucky because I was at least part of a small honors program that has gained nationwide notoriety but I never really highlighted this in any of my applications, mostly because the advisors I had in that program were lacking in their knowledge about even our rinky dink school's own English department, let alone the steps it takes to get into a PhD program. When a school asked for my undergraduate institution, that honors program was not mentioned. The people who wrote my letters of recommendation work in one of the best English departments in the country but I can't tell you that they are the academic rock stars that others on these boards seem to have. I had to work my butt off because I knew that no one was going to take me seriously based on the name brand of my school and my less than perfect (but nowhere near terrible) academic record and I'd like to think that it was the potential that I displayed in my application that has made me successful this application round. I applied to 11 schools but because of my research interests (an amalgamation of critical race theory and queer studies with a focus on 20th century American texts), there were a number of departments that were a very strong fit and I don't think I can be taken as any less serious a candidate because I might have had the luxury to apply to so many programs.

What am I trying to say? These sweeping generalizations about how adcoms choose their entering class is fairly deleterious work to those who might be looking to us for advice on how to go about applying to graduate school in the future. Some schools give more weight to an applicant's alma mater than others. Some schools want to see academic powerhouses as LORs more than others. Just because an applicant comes from Po Dunk University does not mean that he or she is necessarily at a crippling disadvantage in every graduate school admissions scenario. Of course, you will want to make the most of your academic situation but these obstacles clearly can be overcome in ways that Horatio Algiers would be proud of.

[TC3]

Yeah, Llyr, it is pretty humbling when comparing my concerns to what others in the past had to endure. Probably a good note to end this on.

Let's just forget it, yeah? It's tough, no matter which way you slice it. And I certainly don't mean to denigrate ad.com. faculty or those who *did* go to top programs.

It's difficult to discuss privilege in a way that doesn't sound like one is blaming someone else.

Just imagine this in the best burnout conspiracy theorist voice: "It's the system, man!"

[Branwen daughter of Llyr]

Yeah, Llyr, it is pretty humbling when comparing my concerns to what others in the past had to endure. Probably a good note to end this on.

Let's just forget it, yeah? It's tough, no matter which way you slice it. And I certainly don't mean to denigrate ad.com. faculty or those who *did* go to top programs.

It's difficult to discuss privilege in a way that doesn't sound like one is blaming someone else.

Just imagine this in the best burnout conspiracy theorist voice: "It's the system, man!"

:lol:

I don't think you denigrated adcoms, nor ivy graduates. And it's not that I don't recognize that it exists (of course it does). I just refuse to give up in advance because of it, and hate to see other people doing so. And truth be told, in a world-wide comparison, all of us, here, are privileged. We are literate. We hold a BA or above. We own a computer. And although may eat ramen noodles quite often (if still in college or immediately post-college), but we eat them three times a day . We are ALL privileged by being able to pursue a PhD. I'm even privileged enough to feed two cats and a dog (and plan to take them with me cross-Atlantic to grad school).

Just... keep your chin up, ok?? At the end of the day, we can do what we can do to follow our dreams