MAT or MA in English before getting PhD?

[jc_63]

Hi all,

I am very torn between pursuing a career in education (K-12) or in English academia.

I've been accepted to a Master of Arts in Teaching program in English (7-12) at an Ivy League school (Columbia University). I'm also interested in pursuing a PhD in English, as I majored in English in undergrad, and I wanted to become an English professor.  

Is it feasible to get a MAT in English Education (K-12) if I might be interested in pursuing a PhD in English? Or would you recommend that I reapply for a traditional Masters in English? 

I was considering teaching English at the community college level for a few years after earning my MAT for teaching experience before getting a PhD. Also, is teaching high school English for a few years considered useful/helpful in English PhD admissions?

I am still on the fence about my long-term goals between education and English academia - even if I chose to pursue a career in education, my end goal is to become a professor of education [educational leadership and policy] at a top research university.

Please feel free to send thoughts, advice, and best wishes! Thank you.

Edited July 27, 2017 by jc_63

[echo449]

In the end, I think you have to choose between the two paths. An MAT won't be that helpful in getting admission to an English PhD program, nor will teaching high school. It won't keep you from an English PhD program in the future, but it won't count too much towards your application. If you want to pursue education, then you're probably in good shape to do so; if you want to pursue a degree in English now, you probably should switch to an English MA (or apply to PhDs). 

 

Just a uh word of caution: jobs are rare in every field in academia, and you should think about whether or not you would want to pursue a PhD if a "top research university" spot never opens up for you down the road. 

[Concordia]

On the other hand, there are considerably more private schools that might need an English teacher.  Whether you need an MAT for that, or could do as well with an MA or PhD is another question.

[rising_star]

I guess I'm confused. What makes you think pursuing a PhD in English will qualify you to be "professor of education [educational leadership and policy] at a top research university". Have you looked at the CVs of folks working in those departments now? If you do, you'll find that many actually studied education at the doctoral level, not another area...

[EAstudies]

1. Getting into a renowned English Ph.D. (i.e., programs that are well-known have a good placement) is a lot harder than getting into MAT at Ivy. I went to a private boarding school and I have quite a few acquaintances who got MAT degrees at Ivy, including Columbia. They are all bright people, so I'm not talking less of people who go into that field, but the chance of getting into a MAT program and Ph.D. program (especially if it's a respectable one) is simply incomparable. Especially for the latter, you should have a research experience on top of a clearly outlined research interest--not just the passion for working in a certain field. 

2. Even after getting into those well-respected programs, you really need to stand out in your cohort to remotely have a shot. And I'm saying "to have a shot," not "to get a job in academia" because even shining in your program won't guarantee a tenure track professorship. The market in academia, especially for humanities, is brutal. My brother is doing his Ph.D. at a highly-ranked Ivy institution for economics and the job market for economics in academia looks better than humanities because quite a few of the Ph.D. degree holders join a research lab or a private sector, which simply is not an option for humanities students (except for Alt-Ac like doing an admin job at universities, but this has a tiny market as well.) Even so, it doesn't mean it's looking good. These students are tons of best-achieving students from their undergraduate institutions with nearly perfect GPA and extensive research experience as an undergraduate student. Still, most of these "outstanding" students don't end up getting a tenure-track job unless they are willing to move to somewhere no one really wants to live. And becoming a professor in humanities is way harder. Even if you're willing to move to the middle of nowhere, that won't expand your options that much. Check out Chronicle of Higher Education to read more about it.

3. So let me revise your statement for you. Realistically, you shouldn't be torn "between pursuing a career in education (K-12) or in English academia" because "pursuing a career in English academia" is nothing like "pursuing a career in education (K-12)" when it comes to the job market. You should rather be torn between "pursuing a career in education or doing English Ph.D. for 6 to 8 years and still have no stable job in academia." But a nice thing is, as long as you are not hung up with being in academia, high schools (including private schools that pay you really well) are enthusiastically accepting Ph.D. holders. So if you are okay with teaching K-12, you won't end up doing adjuncts in different schools (i.e., doing a part-time job in many different places without any benefit or insurance). But you really want to stay in academia, the odds are against you (and me and anyone who wants to get a TT job). The reason why a lot of Ph.D. students start Ph.D. is that they love doing a research and they do have a specific research interest they want to contribute to. If you want to start Ph.D. *only* because you want to get a job in college and teach college students, that's not a good reason to start Ph.D. *all all.* I think you should learn more about the job market reality in humanities academia before you argue between those two options. Jobs in academia (especially full-time tenure track professorship) is really, really, REALLY rare. I can't emphasize this enough. 

4. As Rising Star had pointed out, I'm having a hard time seeing why you'd want an English Ph.D. when you want to become "a professor of education [educational leadership and policy] at a top research university." In general, I seriously recommend you read more about job prospects on top of looking at the CVs of the professors in the education department at a top research university.

5. Echo449 already answered this, but MA.T. will *not* help you getting into an English Ph.D. although it won't hurt you either. What Ph.D. programs are looking for isn't a teaching experience. They're looking for someone who is capable of doing researches, and a teaching experience on top of that might be a plus. But without that, MA.T. won't help you, especially if you want to get into programs that are crammed with qualified applicants. And this is why people say writing samples and SOP are important. You should show your potential as a scholar first and a teaching experience in K-12 doesn't show that aspect.

 

Anyway, good luck with MAT program and choosing your career path!

 

 

Edited July 29, 2017 by complit

[a_sort_of_fractious_angel]

Hey, @jc_63 - I have a few peers who have thought through these kind of questions and done various things, so I wanted to drop a quick note. FWIW, my BA and MA are in English, so I can only really speak to those areas in a "legit" way - everything else is pretty much anecdotal or the result of a quick website scan. 

That being said, if your end goal is "professor of education [educational leadership and policy] at a top research university," the English Ph.D. won't get you there - you'll be trained to be an English scholar and then professor (in that order), not a education professor (as rising star points out above.) Moreover, as has been noted above also, the job market for English profs is extremely unstable at this time.

However (!) there are both MA and Ph.D/Ed.D programs that would help you get to where (I think) you want to be. From what I can piece together (again, I'm not actually in the field so I could be wrong), a MAT will be useful to you if you want to do secondary education; if you want to end up ultimately in higher education, however, an MA/Ph.D/Ed.D in student affairs or administration or policy would be likely the best option. 

Now, I have NO idea about how higher ed Ph.Ds feel about MAT degrees, but I anticipate that there are translatable components; perhaps, when you start your MAT program, the DGS or an adviser could suggest how you shape a path into higher education. UVA's Curry School of Education, Vanderbilt's Ed.D Higher Ed, or UPenn's Graduate School of Education might be web pages you could look at as you suss out what you'd like to do. 

Best of luck in your studies, wherever they take you! 

Edited July 29, 2017 by a_sort_of_fractious_angel
Citations/credit due for the good thoughts above my post; clarity

[cowgirlsdontcry]

On ‎7‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 5:30 PM, jc_63 said:

Hi all,

I am very torn between pursuing a career in education (K-12) or in English academia.

I've been accepted to a Master of Arts in Teaching program in English (7-12) at an Ivy League school (Columbia University). I'm also interested in pursuing a PhD in English, as I majored in English in undergrad, and I wanted to become an English professor.  

Is it feasible to get a MAT in English Education (K-12) if I might be interested in pursuing a PhD in English? Or would you recommend that I reapply for a traditional Masters in English? 

I was considering teaching English at the community college level for a few years after earning my MAT for teaching experience before getting a PhD. Also, is teaching high school English for a few years considered useful/helpful in English PhD admissions?

I am still on the fence about my long-term goals between education and English academia - even if I chose to pursue a career in education, my end goal is to become a professor of education [educational leadership and policy] at a top research university.

Please feel free to send thoughts, advice, and best wishes! Thank you.

This is what I have seen others do. They get the Master of Arts in English with alternative certification. It adds hours to your degree because of the certification to teach grades 7-12, but you have the MA in English. I don't know if that interests you or not, but it is one way to get both. Teaching English at CC level requires a master's plus 18 hours of graduate level English or the MA in English. I don't believe they will accept a MAT as it is not English heavy. Look at highered.com for jobs in academia at the CC level. Unless you simply want to teach high school English, I would stay away from the MAT. It will not advance your career in English. All of the high school English teachers I know, went back for the MA in English, rather than MAT. The university I attended for UG/MA has been long known as a teacher's college, because it began life as a normal school in the 19th C. The master's students in education are all interested in administrative jobs in education, rather than the teaching master's.

Edited July 29, 2017 by cowgirlsdontcry