Some advice needed..

[taiwanadian]

First off, a big congratulations to all who got accepted so far!

I am seeking some advice about a fall-back plan of mine. I know it's a bit early to tell right now, but I honestly think I will get across the board rejections this year. So far I've gotten 3 official rejections, and 4 other schools have sent out acceptances weeks ago. Two of my remaining schools are not spectacular fits, so I pretty much only have 1 school to hope on. I know that this is by far final, but I have noticed a glaring problem with my application, and would not be surprised if that was the reason I have been getting rejected/will get rejected. I have absolutely no experience in my field of interest. I can definitely understand that schools would be very concerned with a student like me: What if she loses interest halfway through the program? She's never done anything related to this before, how do we know it's not just a fleeting interest? Very legitimate concerns indeed I am not too upset about the rejections, because I feel like I haven't done everything I can just yet.

So my fall back plan is.. I'm going to try to go back to school and get another bachelors degree in sociology (I currently have a BS in psychology) at the University of Toronto (since I am Canadian, and staying in the US will require a ton of visa complications, and the current school i work at doesn't really have professors in my field of interest). I would hope to join some research labs, do some independent research, while volunteering in a related field.

Do you guys have any suggestions/advice/comments? For those of you who applied the second time around, what have you done to help your chances?

I really appreciate you all for taking the time to read my posts, and thank you all in advance!!!

[socialcomm]

Don't give up all hope yet! But it's good to have a fall back plan.

I wouldn't go back for another bachelor's. My undergrad and grad are both in psychology and I got into a Sociology program. If you're going to go back to school, try for a masters degree in Sociology instead.

[maximus82]

First off, a big congratulations to all who got accepted so far!

I am seeking some advice about a fall-back plan of mine. I know it's a bit early to tell right now, but I honestly think I will get across the board rejections this year. So far I've gotten 3 official rejections, and 4 other schools have sent out acceptances weeks ago. Two of my remaining schools are not spectacular fits, so I pretty much only have 1 school to hope on. I know that this is by far final, but I have noticed a glaring problem with my application, and would not be surprised if that was the reason I have been getting rejected/will get rejected. I have absolutely no experience in my field of interest. I can definitely understand that schools would be very concerned with a student like me: What if she loses interest halfway through the program? She's never done anything related to this before, how do we know it's not just a fleeting interest? Very legitimate concerns indeed I am not too upset about the rejections, because I feel like I haven't done everything I can just yet.

So my fall back plan is.. I'm going to try to go back to school and get another bachelors degree in sociology (I currently have a BS in psychology) at the University of Toronto (since I am Canadian, and staying in the US will require a ton of visa complications, and the current school i work at doesn't really have professors in my field of interest). I would hope to join some research labs, do some independent research, while volunteering in a related field.

Do you guys have any suggestions/advice/comments? For those of you who applied the second time around, what have you done to help your chances?

I really appreciate you all for taking the time to read my posts, and thank you all in advance!!!

How about doing a master's in Sociology or a Master's in Social Science? It is usually easier to get accepted, and you can not only gain experience, but also some good recommendations.

[jacib]

Don't give up all hope yet! But it's good to have a fall back plan.

I wouldn't go back for another bachelor's. My undergrad and grad are both in psychology and I got into a Sociology program. If you're going to go back to school, try for a masters degree in Sociology instead.

I would say don't get another bachelors. See about taking classes as a non-degree student (especially during the summer/fall semester), particularly trying to develop a close relationship with a professor or two who could try to write you an additional letter of recommendation (go to office hours every week, etc.). Additionally, see if you can't swing a job mildly related to Sociology, such as one at a non-profit entity. Check idealist.org

More importantly, what was the weakest part of your application? Was it your GRE scores, your transcript, your statement, etc? I know in Sociology they want "serious" students, which to them means someone with a very specific interest in Sociology. I was told that applying to Sociology and another field would mark me as an "unserious" student and send me straight to rejection. I also don't a Sociology background either, but I really tried to give the sense in my statement that all I wanted to do was Sociology. Since this is actually true for you, hopefully you already did this this year, but if not, make sure to do it next year. Have a little bit about how you found Sociology in your statement. I had a section on why Sociology was better than my BA field (Religious Studies) for answering the questions I wanted to ask. Make sure your statement is clear and interesting. If you think your statement was a weak point, rewrite it, starting in August. Show it to academic types. If your transcript was weak, definitely take a few more classes. If it was GRE, definitely study (I know Canadian students generally have trouble with standardized tests). Study like it was a class, spending a few hours a week studying it for months. Take lots of practice tests. Make flash cards. If this was a weak section of your application, send me a PM and I'll give you more advice (I teach standardized tests, including the GRE, now). I'm sure there are also plenty of GRE study guides at the U of T library. Sometimes it is just intangibles and luck. Really really look out for good fit. Widen your search. Pick new schools, consider which of the old ones actually had a strong fit, and which you were applying to because of name/ranking/location (I definitely wasted $75 on a few of those).

[taiwanadian]

Wow! Thank you all for your wonderful responses!

I'm going to clarify my situation a bit, perhaps that would make it easier for you to gauge my situation.

The only reason I was considering a bachelors was because I'm pass the deadlines for all masters programs. I intended on taking 2 years to complete the degree, reapplying in Fall of 2011 for Fall of 2012. I figured i would apply to a few masters program then and focus on just a few phd programs that i loved.

I should mention my application stats, i think that may help. I've been doing research for 4+ years, and have worked in 4 labs so far:

A clinical psych lab: 3.5 years

A developmental psych lab: 2 years

A social psych lab: 1.5 years (present, volunteer)

An exercise psych lab: 1.5 years (present job)

So I've had quite a bit of experience, but really scattered. When I started undergrad, I was interested in going into clinical psychology, hence the first lab. The second was a job, the third was out of interest (it was a prejudice lab), and the fourth is my current job. There isn't really anyone in the sociology department at my school who does immigration research (which is what I want to do), so while it might be pretty apparent that i love research, it isn't clear looking at my CV what my actual field of interests are. I've also volunteered at a number of mental health organizations and led a mental health student org. I've had no publications.

My GRE scores were okay. My quant was 770 while my verbal was only 560 (and writing 4.0 ) It's a bit hard because English isn't really my first language and I grew up in Taiwan. I took Kaplan classes, and they didn't really help my verbal scores (in fact it went down). I intend on trying again in prior to my next try.

I felt that my statement of purpose was pretty strong, and have had a lot of good feedback from my professors and colleagues. My letters of recommendations were strong, but not from anyone in the field.

I feel like my writing sample might have been a bit weak though.

So overall, i think my application was decent, but having absolutely no experience in immigration research might really be hurting my chances.. Also, LORs from people in the field would also help my case.. Do you guys think this is the case? Or maybe there's another reason?

Sorry this is so long!! But again, i really do appreciate all of your advices and suggestions. This is all very helpful!

Edited February 17, 2010 by taiwanadian

[captiv8ed]

There are definitely people who come in from non-sociology backgrounds. And you have a good chunk of research, even if it isn't in the field.

Are all deadlines for master's really gone? What about for Spring?

[Depths of Despair]

First off, a big congratulations to all who got accepted so far!

I am seeking some advice about a fall-back plan of mine. I know it's a bit early to tell right now, but I honestly think I will get across the board rejections this year. So far I've gotten 3 official rejections, and 4 other schools have sent out acceptances weeks ago. Two of my remaining schools are not spectacular fits, so I pretty much only have 1 school to hope on. I know that this is by far final, but I have noticed a glaring problem with my application, and would not be surprised if that was the reason I have been getting rejected/will get rejected. I have absolutely no experience in my field of interest. I can definitely understand that schools would be very concerned with a student like me: What if she loses interest halfway through the program? She's never done anything related to this before, how do we know it's not just a fleeting interest? Very legitimate concerns indeed I am not too upset about the rejections, because I feel like I haven't done everything I can just yet.

So my fall back plan is.. I'm going to try to go back to school and get another bachelors degree in sociology (I currently have a BS in psychology) at the University of Toronto (since I am Canadian, and staying in the US will require a ton of visa complications, and the current school i work at doesn't really have professors in my field of interest). I would hope to join some research labs, do some independent research, while volunteering in a related field.

Do you guys have any suggestions/advice/comments? For those of you who applied the second time around, what have you done to help your chances?

I really appreciate you all for taking the time to read my posts, and thank you all in advance!!!

I agree with socialcomm, a master's degree in Sociology is a good option because you can get experience in sociology and show that you can conduct graduate level work in the discipline.

[St. Jude]

Wow! Thank you all for your wonderful responses!

I'm going to clarify my situation a bit, perhaps that would make it easier for you to gauge my situation.

The only reason I was considering a bachelors was because I'm pass the deadlines for all masters programs. I intended on taking 2 years to complete the degree, reapplying in Fall of 2011 for Fall of 2012. I figured i would apply to a few masters program then and focus on just a few phd programs that i loved.

I should mention my application stats, i think that may help. I've been doing research for 4+ years, and have worked in 4 labs so far:

A clinical psych lab: 3.5 years

A developmental psych lab: 2 years

A social psych lab: 1.5 years (present, volunteer)

An exercise psych lab: 1.5 years (present job)

So I've had quite a bit of experience, but really scattered. When I started undergrad, I was interested in going into clinical psychology, hence the first lab. The second was a job, the third was out of interest (it was a prejudice lab), and the fourth is my current job. There isn't really anyone in the sociology department at my school who does immigration research (which is what I want to do), so while it might be pretty apparent that i love research, it isn't clear looking at my CV what my actual field of interests are. I've also volunteered at a number of mental health organizations and led a mental health student org. I've had no publications.

My GRE scores were okay. My quant was 770 while my verbal was only 560 (and writing 4.0 ) It's a bit hard because English isn't really my first language and I grew up in Taiwan. I took Kaplan classes, and they didn't really help my verbal scores (in fact it went down). I intend on trying again in prior to my next try.

I felt that my statement of purpose was pretty strong, and have had a lot of good feedback from my professors and colleagues. My letters of recommendations were strong, but not from anyone in the field.

I feel like my writing sample might have been a bit weak though.

So overall, i think my application was decent, but having absolutely no experience in immigration research might really be hurting my chances.. Also, LORs from people in the field would also help my case.. Do you guys think this is the case? Or maybe there's another reason?

Sorry this is so long!! But again, i really do appreciate all of your advices and suggestions. This is all very helpful!

I applied last year and was rejected across the board. This past application season has been completely different for me. I wouldn't put to much weight on the importance of the GRE. Yes, it is important and one way they use to weed down applicants but I did not have stellar scores and I have been accepted to a top ten program. For me what I think really changed my ability to be competitive was my writing sample (which was an honors thesis that was my own independent research), my SOP and the quality of my LORs. In one interview I had with a school the DGS told me I should thank my LORs for writing such amazing letters. For all the schools that have contacted me they have all mentioned my writing sample and my future research interests and how they fit into their department. If I were you and you plan on reapplying for next year I would try and get some independent research experience that you can use as your writing sample or in your SOP. I think graduate programs like it when you have experience in field work and with writing research papers about your field work. I would also try and find a least one sociology professor to write you a letter of rec. They don't all have to be people from the field but one is probably necessary. Are there any programs for a Masters degree that accepts students for the spring semester? I know some schools in the US have spring starting masters programs.

[oreo]

There isn't really anyone in the sociology department at my school who does immigration research (which is what I want to do), so while it might be pretty apparent that i love research, it isn't clear looking at my CV what my actual field of interests are.

I am wondering what within immigration you are interested in... Contrary to what you've said, I think that there are quite a few scholars at UofT who work on immigration. To begin, there is a graduate program on "Ethnic, Immigration, and Pluralism Studies." Scholars in the sociology department that work on immigration include Eric Fong, Jack Veugelers, and Jeffrey Reitz, and they all work on quite different things within the study of immigration. There is also a full day conference today that addresses some issues in immigration under the wider topic of the effects of migration on Canada, for instance. Thus, should you consider a Masters program as suggested above, you might not want to write off UofT. Anyways - don't give up yet! It's not even the end of Feb!

[taiwanadian]

Thanks again, all!

I would love to get into a masters program.. I've been looking that up, but haven't found any that start in spring.. Do you know any by any chance? I'll keep looking

To oreo, you are right! UT has a tonnn of great immigration research going on, that's why I want to go there. I'm currently at UW-Madison, and i've looked through their soc department and it looks like there's only one professor, but i don't think he's doing any research related to immigration, he's just teaching a class on it.

Another upside of going back to Canada will be that tuition will be much more affordable, and i can be a non-degree student without worrying about visa situations!

You guys are awesome Still looking forward to hearing more advice and suggestions!

[captiv8ed]

I don't know of any, but it seems like some should??

[oreo]

To oreo, you are right! UT has a tonnn of great immigration research going on, that's why I want to go there. I'm currently at UW-Madison, and i've looked through their soc department and it looks like there's only one professor, but i don't think he's doing any research related to immigration, he's just teaching a class on it.

Oops - I thought that you are currently at UofT, which made me wonder why you said no one's working on immigration.

[rogue]

As far as LORs go, none of mine were from sociology professors--one was a communications prof, one was an accounting prof, and the third wasn't even a prof (I've been out of school for a while and was told it would behoove me to have a recent, though non-academic, LOR in the mix). I was shown two of the three letters, and they were stellar. I've gotten a couple of acceptances so far, so they must've done the trick, even if they were from outside the field. Just my two cents, but I wouldn't stress so much about that part of your app, as long as you have solid letters from someone in a position to evaluate your promise as a scholar.

[deckard]

I'm going to clarify my situation a bit, perhaps that would make it easier for you to gauge my situation.

The only reason I was considering a bachelors was because I'm pass the deadlines for all masters programs. I intended on taking 2 years to complete the degree, reapplying in Fall of 2011 for Fall of 2012. I figured i would apply to a few masters program then and focus on just a few phd programs that i loved.

I should mention my application stats, i think that may help. I've been doing research for 4+ years, and have worked in 4 labs so far:

....

A social psych lab: 1.5 years (present, volunteer)

...

The second was a job, the third was out of interest (it was a prejudice lab)

My GRE scores were okay. My quant was 770 while my verbal was only 560 (and writing 4.0 ) It's a bit hard because English isn't really my first language and I grew up in Taiwan. I took Kaplan classes, and they didn't really help my verbal scores (in fact it went down). I intend on trying again in prior to my next try.

I felt that my statement of purpose was pretty strong, and have had a lot of good feedback from my professors and colleagues. My letters of recommendations were strong, but not from anyone in the field.

I feel like my writing sample might have been a bit weak though.

So overall, i think my application was decent, but having absolutely no experience in immigration research might really be hurting my chances.. Also, LORs from people in the field would also help my case.. Do you guys think this is the case? Or maybe there's another reason?

First off, a Masters would help. Personally, I think it's a better option than doing a Bachelors of Sociology because it's a shorter route, it shows an academic progression on your CV that you can leverage on for your career if the PhD route doesn't work out, and you are likely to get into a good masters program at a US university where you can get to know some Sociology professors who could write letters of recommendation for you. I came from UChicago's Masters of Arts in Social Sciences (MAPSS) program, and the good thing about it is that it is interdisciplinary. So you can create a curriculum and write on a thesis topic that combines your strength - psychology - with a sociological perspective. This thesis can then be used as a writing sample.

The bad thing about a Masters is that it's costly. So as far as possible, try to find a scholarship. I know MAPSS offers subsidies ranging from 1/3rd of the cost (common) to the whole tuition (rare). Also, since it's a one-year course, sometimes you get unlucky and the prof you want to work with doesn't teach a course or priority is given to grad students. From my own experience in Chicago, however, most professors are willing to let you in their classes so long as you show commitment to the work required.

Secondly, you should frame a research question in your area of interest (immigration?). This is more difficult than it sounds. Since you've time, read up the sociological literature on the subject. You can do this by finding syllabi from the websites of professors (or just email them for one); by reading the occasional Annual Review of Sociology article on the topic (basically an up-to-date lit review); and searching in Google Scholar and your university library.

Thirdly, you should try to make your social psych lab experience on prejudice relevant to your interest in immigration. If you can add a fresh perspective on an old problem, that contributes significantly to your statement of purpose.

Finally, I guess it's no harm to take the GRE again to improve the writing score. However, I didn't do that great myself for the GRE (I got a 5.0 for writing, and low-700s for quant and verbal), but I didn't retake them - preferring instead to focus on my statement of purpose and writing sample. The strategy worked and I managed to get into my top programs.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is to take the path that strikes a good balance between moving towards a sociology PhD and a qualification that can still add value to a career in psychology if it doesn't work out. Most importantly, don't break the bank doing so and don't take too much time. Time is your most valuable commodity here, actually.

[taiwanadian]

Those are some sound advice

I looked around a lot today at different masters programs. I realized that University of Toronto's masters program is also a 12 months program and is funded. So I think I'm going to register as a non-degree student for this coming year, take some sociology classes, and apply for the masters program this fall/next spring for fall of 2011. Hopefully by then I will know some of the faculty that I would like to work with at UT, and have a better chance of getting in there. I am thinking about doing some independent research while a non-degree student, and hopefully produce something that will make a good writing sample for phd programs, since I would plan on reapplying the fall of 2011.

I will definitely take a look at university of chicago's too. I took a look at a few others, and it seems like many of the schools that have masters programs don't have faculty doing research in immigration. I think i will keep my fingers crossed for UT for now.

I have to say a big thank you to all of you for telling me not to go back for another bachelors, it makes complete sense, and I'm glad that your suggestions have encouraged me to look more into masters programs. I really appreciate all of your help!!

[im screwed]

Just a forewarning; I've been told that adcoms may look down on MA'sbecause they have to ''unlearn'' the graduate theory and statistics.That probably is not true for all programs at all.

I have an MA in Sociology and I am not having very good luck withgetting in right now. Actually, I'm feeling similar to the OP (though Ido have an interview). Even with competitive scores, some research,and working a sociology instructor for community colleges it seems thatsometimes schools prefer a blank canvas. My one serious downfall wasthe SOP, perhaps if you do it again you might want to pay extraattention to that (i know i will).

[jacib]

As far as LORs go, none of mine were from sociology professors--one was a communications prof, one was an accounting prof, and the third wasn't even a prof (I've been out of school for a while and was told it would behoove me to have a recent, though non-academic, LOR in the mix). I was shown two of the three letters, and they were stellar. I've gotten a couple of acceptances so far, so they must've done the trick, even if they were from outside the field. Just my two cents, but I wouldn't stress so much about that part of your app, as long as you have solid letters from someone in a position to evaluate your promise as a scholar.

I should add that none of my LORs were in Sociology... or even from people in the Social Sciences. I had one from my thesis adviser in Religious Studies, two from graduate student instructors (I know you're not supposed to get those... but I knew they'd be enthusiastic about me, so I chose them over a middling letter from a real professor), and one from a very well regarded Historian who wrote me an incredibly enthusiastic letter that I know said something along the lines of "This kid is fan-freaking-tastic, he has the drive and critical thinking skills to succeed in any discipline and I'm sorry he's not going into History".

[socnerd]

Just a forewarning; I've been told that adcoms may look down on MA'sbecause they have to ''unlearn'' the graduate theory and statistics.That probably is not true for all programs at all.

I have an MA in Sociology and I am not having very good luck withgetting in right now. Actually, I'm feeling similar to the OP (though Ido have an interview). Even with competitive scores, some research,and working a sociology instructor for community colleges it seems thatsometimes schools prefer a blank canvas. My one serious downfall wasthe SOP, perhaps if you do it again you might want to pay extraattention to that (i know i will).

Wow really? So does this mean that if you don't go straight into a PhD program you're screwed? That is a really scary thought, I had no idea it was like that.

[myrrh]

Wow really? So does this mean that if you don't go straight into a PhD program you're screwed? That is a really scary thought, I had no idea it was like that.

Take myself for example. I have an MA in sociology in Taiwan, and so far I have had some admissions including some from really good schools.

I think we could consider the pros and cons of MA more thoroughly. As I have been told, an MA holder would be examined with a standard higher than a BA holding applicant, since they have been trained more. Think about this: you have done several years of MA training, which is supposedly similar to what some first or second year PHD student have. If you fail to show that you are as good as they are in some respects, it could be a problem. See, I spent three years doing my MA (it's normal in TW), and I guess some of the forth-year PHD students state-side are attending conference to present papers. If I was just as good as a forth-year undergrad student, I don't think I could be seen as any promising.

However, on the other hand, doing MA could build up someone's ability in sociology. When it comes to a non-sociology background student, it could really matter. I'm not saying that the title of "MA in Sociology" matters, what I'm talking about is the training, which would determine your publication, writing sample and SoP. Of course, it would also determine who will write your recommendations. My MA training gave me a really concentrating SoP, an R&R paper which is also my writing sample and recommendations from sociologists. And, I think it's important: I believe the good fits to the institutions shown in my SoP brought me to my dream schools.

All in all, I think we shouldn't focus too much on "the MA degree". What matters more is the process of MA training, and what you got from it. If you have an MA but show no difference from an undegrad applicant, the degree could help you only in a very restrained manner; if you have an MA and look like a prepared junior sociologist, it will be cool. If you are going to do MA, just work hard and prepare to show how the MA build up your abilities once you are applying for PHD again.

------

For OP:

I am with the guys above. Another bachelor degree would take more time and help less, and an MA would be more ideal. Besides verbal score (yours is a bit under the top20 average), the only you need, I guess, is a strong writing sample, which can definitely be built up in a sociological MA program.

BTW, let's talk about the immigration issue. I don't know which schools are you applying to, neither what's your detailed future research plan. As you are from Taiwan (same as me!), I supposed that you're going to work on the Chinese/ Taiwanese migration communities. I'm sure that some UCs are interested in Chinese migration but the UCs.....I think we all know their financial situation very well. When it comes to other schools, I'm not sure is there any general interest in the Chinese/ Taiwanese case. Anyway, good luck! And as we know, now is just the middle of Feb. It's great to have a full back plan, but don't be too discouraged!

Edited February 18, 2010 by tomi

[jacib]

I am with the guys above. Another bachelor degree would take more time and help less, and an MA would be more ideal. Besides verbal score (yours is a bit under the top20 average), the only you need, I guess, is a strong writing sample, which can definitely be built up in a sociological MA program.

I should add that one of my coworkers is applying to linguistics programs after an undergrad as a German major. He didn't have any papers that were very strong linguistically so he spent a few months in the Fall working on a new linguistics paper on language acquisition in Turkish children. He wrote it using mainly stuff from the internet (linguistics is much more based on articles than books) and maybe getting on of his "boys" to scan some stuff from a specific book or two. If your writing sample was weak, you can completely rewrite a new paper even without doing a masters program.

[taiwanadian]

Thanks guys

I think i'm going to try to work on some independent research while a non-degree student, and hopefully build on the same topic in my masters program. I don't think a masters degree could hurt too much, and i think it would be great preparation for me and that i would find it very interesting too (as in, it's not just for grad school)!

To Tomi: I'm focusing on receiving countries, so if i stay in the US, my population/countries of interest will most likely be Latin America and Asia. On the other hand, if i go back to Canada, my population of interest may be a lot broader (49% of Canadians are foreign-born!!). UC schools do tend to have a lot of immigration researchers, but I am more interested in staying on the east coast, since my sister is there and she's the only family I have around North America.

[rogue]

I should add that one of my coworkers is applying to linguistics programs after an undergrad as a German major. He didn't have any papers that were very strong linguistically so he spent a few months in the Fall working on a new linguistics paper on language acquisition in Turkish children. He wrote it using mainly stuff from the internet (linguistics is much more based on articles than books) and maybe getting on of his "boys" to scan some stuff from a specific book or two. If your writing sample was weak, you can completely rewrite a new paper even without doing a masters program.

Totally agree. I didn't have a suitable writing sample, so I had to do a research project and write a paper just to submit with my applications. The only problem was IRB approval for human subjects; since I'm not affiliated with a research institution, I didn't have access to an IRB and therefore had to frame my research so that it would be exempt.