Whether I should apply or not

[samman1994]

Hello everyone,

So I've come to the point of writing my SOPs, getting my LORs, and looking at application processes. I have come across a little problem however. I have 5 schools on my list

Iowa State, Harvard, UNC, UConn, and Scripps Institute

I have faculty at both Iowa State and UConn who were interested in taking me in, and told me to contact them when I applied so they could personally see my application and get me into the school. Now I'm planning to retake the GRE this October, and you can send your results to 4 schools, so I'm thinking all the schools but Harvard. 

My GPA is 3.00, and my previous GRE was 149Q/155V/4.0AW so I don't really have even a semi-decent application. I do have 3 years research experience (no pubs), and am going into a field that is a continuation of what I had done prior (I assume this is why the faculty members at those schools were so interested), but that's about it. I feel like I have a really good chance at Iowa State and UConn (especially with the faculty help), and a maybe at Scripps and UNC (probably not, but I still want to try). Now all the schools on my list are sorta at the same level in terms of research interest, I would be absolutely fine going to any school on that list. Location wise, UConn or Harvard would be nice (you have Boston, New York City, Providence, lot of cool historical cities nearby) and Scripps (relatively close to me, so it'd be a really small move). Again, these are small preferences though, research and getting into the school are priority. 

All of that being said, I'm thinking of not even applying to Harvard at this point. I'd have to pay extra to send over the GRE scores, and the application fee itself, and from all the other people I see applying to Harvard and how good their GPA and GRE scores are, while having plenty of publications, I honestly don't even think I really have a chance. There is again the potential of what appears to have happened at the other schools, there aren't a lot of people going  or interested in the particular field I'm going into, and since I have experience in that field it does make me a bit desirable, but I don't know if it's enough to get me in. 

So.... Should I even apply to Harvard? Or should I cut it out and focus my efforts into the other 4 schools?

Edited September 15, 2017 by samman1994

[GreenEyedTrombonist]

How good is the research fit at Harvard?

[samman1994]

15 hours ago, GreenEyedTrombonist said:

How good is the research fit at Harvard?

I don't exactly know what you mean? If its in regards to how interested I am, it's about the same as the other schools. In regards to how well do I fit into the research at that school, again about the same as the other schools. These schools, research wise at least, are all at the same level for the most part (for what I'm looking for and my skill set). I don't fit better at one school over the other per se. 

In regards to @moiselle, there is a thread where people post their application and get evaluated there, nobody will really see it here. However a quick glance, GPA is good, but GRE is a bit low (for international at those schools, you'll want at least above 60%). Research experience is also a little bit on the lower side. I'd say if you can bring up your GRE score, you'll have a decent shot at those schools. And in regards to potential schools, choose schools based of research interest, not whether you can get in or not (I mean I chose harvard, and only now am I contemplating not sending an application because it might not be worth it). 

[GreenEyedTrombonist]

@samman1994 So if it's about the same in terms of research interests and available faculty, what kind of labs do they have? Do they have extra programs that you could participate in? Are you expected to TA on top of RA or will most of your funding come from an RA position? I've probably made it clear in our other conversations that this isn't my field, so these could be things to consider or they might have no bearing on your decision. 

@moiselle I do agree with samman on this. The "easiest" schools to get into won't be because they are a certain rank, but because your research interests are the perfect fit for that school. This forum is riddled with people mentioning getting into a higher tier school and being rejected at their safety. If you have time, improve your GRE scores (probably focusing on Quant since you're in bio) and figure out which schools have faculty that are most closely aligned with your research interest and methodology. 

[samman1994]

1 hour ago, GreenEyedTrombonist said:

@samman1994 So if it's about the same in terms of research interests and available faculty, what kind of labs do they have? Do they have extra programs that you could participate in? Are you expected to TA on top of RA or will most of your funding come from an RA position? I've probably made it clear in our other conversations that this isn't my field, so these could be things to consider or they might have no bearing on your decision. 

@moiselle I do agree with samman on this. The "easiest" schools to get into won't be because they are a certain rank, but because your research interests are the perfect fit for that school. This forum is riddled with people mentioning getting into a higher tier school and being rejected at their safety. If you have time, improve your GRE scores (probably focusing on Quant since you're in bio) and figure out which schools have faculty that are most closely aligned with your research interest and methodology. 

I haven't really looked at the program (do they require me to TA, do they do rotations, etc.). For me, those don't really matter. In my field, you are funded whether you TA or not, sometimes you are required to TA for a few semesters by the program, other times it's optional. Each school has labs that are relatively similar, cant really say one is over the other. They all focus on protein NMR, just different biological systems (some of them look at DNA, others RNA, others proteins), but I don't actually have a preference. 

The thing is, Harvard has nothing special over the other schools except for Brand Name. In regards to location, UConn is pretty close, with a good program. In regards to funding, the stipend is a little higher than most, but that's primarily because Cambridge is expensive. In regards to funding, Harvard is probably better funded than most, and it may be easier for me to get my desired professor as such; however, on the flip side, there is probably more competition there. If there is one thing I've noticed, the smaller lesser programs appear to be in higher need of you could say... specialized students (the field is small, and most people in the field don't actually work on this), so having a student who has prior experience is actually hard to find. So smaller schools, less funding, but higher chance of getting into desired lab. Bigger schools, more funding, but more competition and I stand out less, so may be harder to get into desired lab (although, this is probably true for every field). 

Let me put it this way. Harvard would be nice to go to (well funded, nice name so may be easier to get a job), but thats it. For me its more of a, well if I don't really care that much if I go to Harvard or any other school on this list, and I have a pretty good chance at getting into these other schools, and probably not a very good chance at getting into Harvard, then should I even waste my money? The GRE says 4 schools, well if I cut out Harvard that would make things incredibly easy and cheaper. It's just a matter of, based of how I feel, and my specs, should I cut out Harvard? Or should I still apply and say, well might as well try, who knows, I might even get in. 

[GreenEyedTrombonist]

It sounds like you want to just cut out Harvard and be done with it. I would consider the job angle, though, before you finish. In your field, are most of the profs coming from a specific set of schools, like Harvard, or is it more spread out? You don't want to reduce your chances of getting a job if you don't have to, imo.

[samman1994]

1 minute ago, GreenEyedTrombonist said:

It sounds like you want to just cut out Harvard and be done with it. I would consider the job angle, though, before you finish. In your field, are most of the profs coming from a specific set of schools, like Harvard, or is it more spread out? You don't want to reduce your chances of getting a job if you don't have to, imo.

Sadly, I don't know much about people in industry (which is where I'm trying to go to). I only those in Academia, and they generally actually come from a wide rang. Definitely a lot of ivy league schools (a lot of Harvard, Stanford, Yale), but also UNC, University of Toronto, etc. So really hard to say. And not exactly, I just want to give all the information out there. Personally, I think I don't have a chance at Harvard, so applying would be useless. Add the fact that I'd have to pay extra to send GRE scores, and that nothing really sets it out above the rest (as far as I know), and applying to it just seems financially wasteful (and I'm not in a great place financially). 

However, as I just stated, I don't know much about the field, or the application process, that's why I made a post asking for other peoples opinions. They may know more about Harvard acceptance than I do, and more about the industry than I do. So they may say that it's still worth it to spend the extra money and apply, even with my lower application. 

[Bioenchilada]

38 minutes ago, samman1994 said:

Sadly, I don't know much about people in industry (which is where I'm trying to go to). I only those in Academia, and they generally actually come from a wide rang. Definitely a lot of ivy league schools (a lot of Harvard, Stanford, Yale), but also UNC, University of Toronto, etc. So really hard to say. And not exactly, I just want to give all the information out there. Personally, I think I don't have a chance at Harvard, so applying would be useless. Add the fact that I'd have to pay extra to send GRE scores, and that nothing really sets it out above the rest (as far as I know), and applying to it just seems financially wasteful (and I'm not in a great place financially). 

However, as I just stated, I don't know much about the field, or the application process, that's why I made a post asking for other peoples opinions. They may know more about Harvard acceptance than I do, and more about the industry than I do. So they may say that it's still worth it to spend the extra money and apply, even with my lower application. 

From your posts, it seems that you are overlooking a lot of important factors when it comes to graduate school and individual programs. The structure of the program ACTUALLY matters, so i would look into those ASAP. Also, you can't actually be neutral when writing your SOPs. There must be something about the school that you care about that is not simply the fact that there's professors that do the work you want to do. If you say that during the interview, they'll know you don't actually care about the school and you'll likely be rejected. Across all my interviews, the most common question for me was "Why do you want to come here?". It is also worthy to point out that, though it shouldn't be a main factor in your decision making, name brand matters, especially in academia. Top schools tend to not only have more resources, but they also have a wider network of connections that'll most likely help you land a job--- so take that into consideration. 

PS:  Scripps level of prestige is comparable to Harvard's, and the competition there will also be intense. Thus, if you question your ability to get into Harvard, that applies to Scripps as well. 

[aquamarine]

19 hours ago, samman1994 said:

Hello everyone,

So I've come to the point of writing my SOPs, getting my LORs, and looking at application processes. I have come across a little problem however. I have 5 schools on my list

Iowa State, Harvard, UNC, UConn, and Scripps Institute

I have faculty at both Iowa State and UConn who were interested in taking me in, and told me to contact them when I applied so they could personally see my application and get me into the school. Now I'm planning to retake the GRE this October, and you can send your results to 4 schools, so I'm thinking all the schools but Harvard. 

My GPA is 3.00, and my previous GRE was 149Q/155V/4.0AW so I don't really have even a semi-decent application. I do have 3 years research experience (no pubs), and am going into a field that is a continuation of what I had done prior (I assume this is why the faculty members at those schools were so interested), but that's about it. I feel like I have a really good chance at Iowa State and UConn (especially with the faculty help), and a maybe at Scripps and UNC (probably not, but I still want to try). Now all the schools on my list are sorta at the same level in terms of research interest, I would be absolutely fine going to any school on that list. Location wise, UConn or Harvard would be nice (you have Boston, New York City, Providence, lot of cool historical cities nearby) and Scripps (relatively close to me, so it'd be a really small move). Again, these are small preferences though, research and getting into the school are priority. 

All of that being said, I'm thinking of not even applying to Harvard at this point. I'd have to pay extra to send over the GRE scores, and the application fee itself, and from all the other people I see applying to Harvard and how good their GPA and GRE scores are, while having plenty of publications, I honestly don't even think I really have a chance. There is again the potential of what appears to have happened at the other schools, there aren't a lot of people going  or interested in the particular field I'm going into, and since I have experience in that field it does make me a bit desirable, but I don't know if it's enough to get me in. 

So.... Should I even apply to Harvard? Or should I cut it out and focus my efforts into the other 4 schools?

1. Do those schools require an official copy? Some schools will accept the PDF you automatically receive from ETS. 

2. Honestly, it sounds like you already have your mind made up about not applying and are seeking validation. I'll give it. I wouldn't apply there. One of the schools I interviewed at was the Indiana School of Medicine, and although they weren't a huge name school, their pharm/tox program funneled graduates into Lilly like nobody's business, because Lilly is headquartered in Indy. My program pushes graduates to look outside of academia, and have a pretty good track record placing into industry and other opportunities. If you look on each school's website, some post alumni and where they are now. (As an aside, my program's placement outside of academia is why I chose the school.) You might could also check department websites to see if they have a separate page for professional development things. My graduate school has a page with a ton of organizations, workshops, and professional development opportunities for both academia and other jobs. 

 

 

[aquamarine]

2 minutes ago, Bioenchilada said:

From your posts, it seems that you are overlooking a lot of important factors when it comes to graduate school and individual programs. The structure of the program ACTUALLY matters, so i would look into those ASAP. Also, you can't actually be neutral when writing your SOPs. There must be something about the school that you care about that is not simply the fact that there's professors that do the work you want to do. If you say that during the interview, they'll know you don't actually care about the school and you'll likely be rejected. Across all my interviews, the most common question for me was "Why do you want to come here?". It is also worthy to point out that, though it shouldn't be a main factor in your decision making, name brand matters, especially in academia. Top schools tend to not only have more resources, but they also have a wider network of connections that'll most likely help you land a job--- so take that into consideration. 

PS:  Scripps level of prestige is comparable to Harvard's, and the competition there will also be intense. Thus, if you question your ability to get into Harvard, that applies to Scripps as well. 

I'd say the same, or at least close to it, of UNC. 

[samman1994]

15 minutes ago, aquamarine said:

I'd say the same, or at least close to it, of UNC. 

Really? Damn, never would've thought in regards to industry, the brand name of UNC and Scripps were as big as Harvard. If that is the case, then I guess I will apply to Harvard. If they are on the same level of difficulty and prestige, then I wouldn't know which school to cut (if I only wanted 4). Thanks for the help guys. Question on the side, almost all the programs I've seen are relatively the same (i.e. most are 4 to 5 years, most require either yearly updates on research, or a a more detailed update in my 3rd year. Some have tests before I join, others don't have it). So I don't exactly know what you mean by "it's important to check the programs". Every program I've seen seems very similar to the other. What particular things should I look for?

[aquamarine]

9 minutes ago, samman1994 said:

Really? Damn, never would've thought in regards to industry, the brand name of UNC and Scripps were as big as Harvard. If that is the case, then I guess I will apply to Harvard. If they are on the same level of difficulty and prestige, then I wouldn't know which school to cut (if I only wanted 4). Thanks for the help guys. Question on the side, almost all the programs I've seen are relatively the same (i.e. most are 4 to 5 years, most require either yearly updates on research, or a a more detailed update in my 3rd year. Some have tests before I join, others don't have it). So I don't exactly know what you mean by "it's important to check the programs". Every program I've seen seems very similar to the other. What particular things should I look for?

I'm not sure what you mean by this question. 

 

[samman1994]

1 minute ago, aquamarine said:

I'm not sure what you mean by this question. 

 

The structure of most of the programs are relatively the same (the ones for the schools I've looked at). So when he said the structure of the program is really important, I didn't exactly know want he meant by it, like which part of it is important.

[GreenEyedTrombonist]

Again, not sure if it's the same for your area, but when I'm looking at programs, I look for a few things:

1. Professor Fit (we've already talked about this)

2. Research Opportunities (which professors currently have grants, are there labs or large research programs, like MIT for example)

3. Department Culture (sometimes profs don't get along, some departments encourage inter-disciplinary work, some foster student competitiveness while others want cohorts to be more cohesive)

4. Campus Culture (Inter-disciplinary comes into play here as well, how do the departments communicate with each other, if the program requires electives outside of the department, how hard will it be to get the classes I want/need, are the classes I'd want to take offered, could I reach out to another department about my research interests if I see a benefit there, etc)

5. What is the department dedicated to? You might have a program that emphasizes historical perspectives, some cutting edge methodology, some big data, and most will state whether they focus on training future educators or professionals in whatever sector. What does the program put in the About Us section? What do they emphasize? What do they care about? Do these things line up with your passions?

6. Any additional information about the department that might be of interest to you. For instance, one of my programs got new equipment related to live-streamed content. I have a background in live-stream content as both an entertainer and moderator so this is something that I can mention in my SoP as a way my background could benefit the program. 

That's just a few of the things I look for. I basically have each program listed on a separate piece of paper and write down the answers to all of these questions and how it relates to my goals. Then I take that information and incorporate it in my SoP to show I've truly researched the program and know exactly how I would fit and benefit them.

[aquamarine]

34 minutes ago, samman1994 said:

The structure of most of the programs are relatively the same (the ones for the schools I've looked at). So when he said the structure of the program is really important, I didn't exactly know want he meant by it, like which part of it is important.

Oh, I thought it was something I said and was very confused, lol. I can't speak for @Bioenchilada, but I would guess it has something to do with umbrella programs vs. direct-entry programs. That will play a role into the admissions process. 

[Bioenchilada]

1 hour ago, samman1994 said:

The structure of most of the programs are relatively the same (the ones for the schools I've looked at). So when he said the structure of the program is really important, I didn't exactly know want he meant by it, like which part of it is important.

I didn't mean length of program or structure soecifically. I meant, what is it about the school that you like? 

For example, are there a lot of collaborative opportunities? Does the school have certificate programs that you enjoy? Does it seem like it would be an interdisciplinary environment? Are there outside opportunities at x school that you enjoy? Do you enjoy the coursework that you would be taking or the electives that you could take advantage of? Etc...

[Bioenchilada]

@GreenEyedTrombonist had the right idea. If there is nothing about the school that you care for except the fact that there is NMR research going on, that doesn't present a solid case for an admission offer. 

[GreenEyedTrombonist]

Totally forgot about certificate programs! Good point @Bioenchilada !

[samman1994]

48 minutes ago, Bioenchilada said:

I didn't mean length of program or structure soecifically. I meant, what is it about the school that you like? 

For example, are there a lot of collaborative opportunities? Does the school have certificate programs that you enjoy? Does it seem like it would be an interdisciplinary environment? Are there outside opportunities at x school that you enjoy? Do you enjoy the coursework that you would be taking or the electives that you could take advantage of? Etc...

Oh ok, those are all things I sorta have to look up. I definitely am going to be discussing other departments and potential collaborations (since protein NMR itself is very interdisciplinary). The main thing I'm focusing at in terms of why this school over others (at least in SOPs), is going to be instrumentation and research of other faculty members (e.g. if they do xray or even have a cryo-ER machine, that'll be great. or if they have someone who does Mass-spec binding studies, that'll be great as well). I stated this in another post, but I think protein NMR is too focused. I think it'll be better if I focus my SOP on proteomics in general, and only use protein NMR as an example. But I'm definitely lacking research on the schools. I've been so focused on faculty members I forgot to check out the school itself. Thanks!