Questions about PhD requirements.

[Busut]

Hello.

 

I'm planning to apply for M.Div or M.T.S program, and I'd like to obtain a Ph.D. degree eventually. I'm not sure that what major I have to choose. It will be systematic theology or philosophy of religion or something similar with these, and I don't want to be a pastor. I want to be in an academic field.

In Korea, there is a rumor that there are some schools which do not allow applying for a Ph.D. degree to M.Div owners. This makes me nervous, so I want to confirm this. I think that M.Div will be better for me because M.Div programs offer a broader range of study in theology. Therefore, I want to apply for a M.div program if it does not interfere applying for Ph.D. programs.

Edited October 5, 2017 by Busut

[xypathos]

There are probably less than five schools that require applicants to have an academic M.A. in Religious Studies, and almost none of them do work in theology/philosophy of religion (Syracuse Univ. may be the one exception here). Theology and philosophy of religion (in a Religious Studies department!) programs are extremely open to someone with an M.Div.

If you're wanting to do philosophy of religion in a philosophy department, then yes, your M.Div will surely pose some problems for you.

Also, the deciding factor will be how you use your M.Div/MTS and where it comes from! If you take ample opportunity to study language(s) and produce superior work in seminars, you'll be golden.

 

EDIT: Where all are you looking to apply? Once we know more about you and the schools that you're looking at we can guide you more.

Edited October 5, 2017 by xypathos

[marXian]

I don't think Syracuse requires an MA in religious studies. There are actually very, very few programs in the US that offer that as a terminal degree.

I think most people attend a div school, seminary, or another institution that offers an MAT, MTS, etc. if they feel they need a master's degree before applying to PhD programs. It's important to emphasize though that many top programs tend not to admit people who don't have a master's degree.

xypathos is right that where you get your MDiv likely matters the most, even more than how well you do in the program. E.g. an MDiv from Liberty or Moody, if that's the only graduate work you've done, is not going to be competitive at top programs in philosophy of religion or even systematic theology. Of course, if you're interested in a more conservative program at a seminary, then those MDiv programs would probably be fine.

So to answer your question directly, there is no formal restriction on applying to an RS program with an MDiv, i.e. schools will never say "If you have an MDiv, you aren't allowed admittance, so we won't consider your application." But it can be a hindrance if it's from a very conservative school and/or it isn't clear that it's adequately prepared you for academic work.

[xypathos]

Yea I should have been a bit more descriptive in my use of Syracuse. It is correct that Syracuse doesn't require a Masters in Religious Studies but per the chair and a recently retired professor, students with an academic M.A. are given preference over a MTS or MDiv. In fact, the chair mentioned that to their recollection, they haven't accepted an M.A. (Theology) or M.Div without also having an academic M.A. in several years. Students that have applied with just a M.Div and if they're a strong candidate, they're kicked back to the M.A. program and if they do well after two years are allowed to carry over into the PhD at year three.

Anyway, this is all for a specific school so its meaningfulness is limited.

[Busut]

Thank you, guys. Your answers are really helpful for me. I think it is ok to apply for M.Div programs.

Currently, I'm trying to apply top divinity schools like Harvard, Duke, Emory(Candler) etc. Of course, it is not sure that I can be admitted or not, but it is worth to try. If I rejected those schools, then I'll try seminaries. Denver, Trinity Evangelical, GTU, Talbot are good examples.

I think that if I can be admitted top schools, the program that I choose will not be a huge problem. Thanks a lot!

[xypathos]

How do you define yourself theologically? Would you say you're a moderate, progressive, or conservative? I ask b/c that's quite the spread of schools and it gives the impression that you're just throwing darts at a board to see which stick.

[Busut]

Well.. I'm not sure about my color in theology because I did not study well, and I did not care about diverse traditions of Christianity until now. I think I should study a history of the church before I go abroad, and care about this point when I research colleges.

Korean church tradition is very conservative, so they think me as a progressive one. However, I think that my position in U.S. theology can be conservative. I don't want to leave my evangelical tradition, but I can open my ears and listen to other tradition's story and other religion's point. Actually, the principle of charity is natural for me, so I can be a good listener even for enemies of the church. I think that I can study in a school which is a progressive one, though some topics that I want cannot be dealt thoroughly.

My ultimate goal is not clear because it will be something mixed with theology and philosophy. I'm not sure which portion is more important, but I know that I should start with theology. Therefore, open-mind is the most important thing for me at this stage. Of course, I research schools before applying them, but most of them can give me a good training to be a scholar.

[marXian]

Thanks, xypathos, I think you're right. When I was applying 6 years ago, the chair of Syracuse's department did tell me my project was "too theological" in my initial conversations with her (which is funny since Caputo was a member of their department for years and they produced people like Jeff Robbins and Clayton Crockett, but I digress...) So you're right that they are definitely not that interested in projects or prospectives that are seen as too confessional.

Busut, I think you'd be fine at a top div school. I would honestly just apply to all the top div schools/seminaries (Chicago, Vandy, Princeton, etc.) if you can afford the app fees. Then you can pick the school that gives you the most money. Some of the schools on your seminary list would be fine for PhD applications, but others not. I wouldn't bother with Talbot for instance or anything in that ballpark. TEDS is probably on the edge of being too conservative to be able to get into any RS PhD programs. I went to Fuller Seminary for an MAT and ended up in a secular department for my PhD, but that degree likely kept me out of other programs I applied to (at least in part.) You would be much better off going to a major div school or Princeton though because 1) You'd simply be more competitive in PhD applications and 2) There's a good chance you would end up paying far less than at an evangelical seminary or maybe even nothing at all. 

[bonhoeffer80]

Hello

Is it true that when you want to apply PhD program at first tier school (yale, hds, uc, bu, bc, etc) it will have a better opportunity when you have an MA or MATS or equivalent degree from another university in US? Or even from their own magister graduate student..?

I'm an international student from South East Asia and some of my friends keep telling me that. 

Thanks in advance.

[xypathos]

If I understand your question correctly, yes - students who have an MA, MTS, MDiv from Harvard, Yale, Chicago, Duke, etc have a better chance of getting accepted into such a school for a PhD.

The reasons for this are myriad but come down to: 1) You've had advantageous in your life that have allowed you to get accepted into these programs, 2) The professors for your M* degree will write your LORs to your PhD programs, 3) Those LOR writers and their respective readers will probably know each other, 4) You've proven yourself capable of performing at a high level, among a couple other reasons.

I only know two international students who managed to get accepted into US schools for Religion and both had to do multiple Masters degree. In both cases they had a Masters degree from their home countries (both are also SE Asia) but were shutout from US institutions and told they needed a competitive US Masters, then to apply again. One did a Masters at Vanderbilt and ended up staying on for a PhD while another went to HDS then onto Yale for their PhD. Another two from S. Korea and Vietnam did a M.Div at VDS and are both now at Yale for another Masters but both are hoping for acceptances into a NT program so are catching up on languages.

[Busut]

Actually, I have MA in Philosophy. It's really helpful for me to apply schools, so you got a nice point, bonhoeffer80.

Nowadays, my philosophical view is obsoleted and almost all of contemporary philosophers do not care the view. If they accepted or denied it, I would carry on what I did. However, they just ignored it so I couldn't keep the way.

Thank you guys anyway! All of your answers are very helpful for me.

[bonhoeffer80]

Thanks for the explanation xyphatos.

Although I''m not pretty sure how to react, I think I'll try to contact some potential prof to discuss my opportunity. finger crossed...

But how about seminaries like PTS and UTS? Same case?
 

[xypathos]

2 hours ago, bonhoeffer80 said:

Thanks for the explanation xyphatos.

Although I''m not pretty sure how to react, I think I'll try to contact some potential prof to discuss my opportunity. finger crossed...

But how about seminaries like PTS and UTS? Same case?
 

All I can suggest is that you reach out and see. Given the religious denominations, history, and school location of PTS and Union that you would be okay but that's merely my opinion.